Under Defeat HD

[TSJ]

Is anybody here liking the twin stick controls? could be a reason for the increased bullet speed and difficulty. I can play a hell of a lot better than i did even when i used my stick.

Yeah, I use stick aiming, it's great to be able to turn on a dime without moving your ship!

I've said it before but twin stick is a little misleading; you can use the d-pad for movement.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I must say I find this amusing. Trying to learn stage 4. Keep losing 3 lives by about midway through, then I manage to no miss it with 100% contribution as well...

Doubt that'll happen again.

[Special World]

Lucky.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Lucky.

People tell me luck has nothing to do with it.

[Special World]

People are often wiser than we think.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Just looked at last boss......

Interest in trying to 1cc this game instantly gone.

[iconoclast]

Just looked at last boss......

Interest in trying to 1cc this game instantly gone.

Spend some time with him in training mode. Even if you can't dodge his second phase attacks, a few bombs and rockets should be enough to get through it. For his third phase, the main thing to keep in mind is to stay *away* from the top of the screen after the first line of bullets come up; you'll have more room to dodge the next wave if you move down a little.

[mesh control]

Just looked at last boss......

Interest in trying to 1cc this game instantly gone.

DTP starring in The Fresh Prince of Scrub Hill.

[DrTrouserPlank]

The whole stage is a load of bollocks really. I know there's absolutely no chance of ever clearing that in 3 lives, let alone doing it after stages 1 to 4.

It a shame because the rest of the game is completely do-able. Deathsmiles syndrome strikes again.

[AntiFritz]

The whole stage is a load of bollocks really. I know there's absolutely no chance of ever clearing that in 3 lives, let alone doing it after stages 1 to 4.

It a shame because the rest of the game is completely do-able. Deathsmiles syndrome strikes again.

You expect the entire game to be the same difficulty throughout?

[stryc9]

At Planky:

There's absolutely no chance that you will clear it in 3 lives because you've already resigned yourself to failure.

If you can no miss stage 4, then by extension you should be able to no miss 1 2 and 3 as well. Practice all these so you reduce the chances of a death in a real run. Then devote all your time to practice in the last stage. Thats what I'm doing now.

You can practice bosses, which is also very helpful.

Gotta admit though, no extends is pretty rough, but I've never played the game before now, and I'm attributing my comparatively high death count on the perspective that seems to make the bullets speed up just as they get near the bottom of the screen.

I find it difficult to 1cc some of these games cos I have trouble separating scoring from survival.

I train muscle memory for scoring early on instead of just beating the damn thing by going the easiest route. Shame.

[DrTrouserPlank]

The whole stage is a load of bollocks really. I know there's absolutely no chance of ever clearing that in 3 lives, let alone doing it after stages 1 to 4.

It a shame because the rest of the game is completely do-able. Deathsmiles syndrome strikes again.

You expect the entire game to be the same difficulty throughout?

No, and this game isn't like that. The stages get progressively harder.

Stopping on stage 4 might have been a little bit too early difficulty-wise, but stage 5 seems like a mechanism for making people pump more coins into the game in order to finish it rather than a reasonable challenge that can be overcome legitimately.

I'm already hitting the ceiling on stage 4. If your option gets canceled or misses, you are fucked. If you accidentally get forced into picking up another option, you are fucked. If you accidentally fire the option at the wrong point (leaving you none available later) you are fucked. If you don't have 3 lives at the start of the stage, you are fucked, even then you need to bomb like crazy because the game conspires to screw you over with its rank.

I might clear stage 4 in a run one day, but that's about as far as I can see it going because I'll never get to stage 5 with any lives left more than once in a blue moon and I've played stage 4 to death. I know everything about it. Where enemies are, where to fire the options... still doesn't guarantee any sort of success.

[ExitPlanetDust]

You have to set the 360 to widescreen in the console settings, that is now the only issue with running this game in 4:3. I've got mine pretty much perfect, with only a bit of one of the bomb icons and the last two letters of 'Please Wait/Press Start' on the 2p side cut off, and the HUD is enough in the outer perimeter of the playfield not to obscure my vision.

You can use the screen positioning to prioritize the small amount of HUD that is cut off anyway.

I can't believe G-rev hid the 4:3 option in the wallpaper settings, of all places, considering I bet most of us trying to tate this thing went straight to the 'black' setting and forgot about it.

Maybe I'm just dumb, but setting the PS3 to 16:9 in the display options and then choosing the wallpaper type "clear" option does not seem to work. The game overrides the PS3's 16:9 option and keeps things letterboxed at all times on a 4:3 CRT. I made a rather ranty VIDEO. I would appreciate it if you watched. Maybe you could give me some advice on what I'm doing wrong... Or maybe the PS3 version really is just gimped. Thanks.

[Kollision]

...I'll never get to stage 5 with any lives left more than once in a blue moon and I've played stage 4 to death. I know everything about it. Where enemies are, where to fire the options... still doesn't guarantee any sort of success.

The pressure of reaching the last boss and surviving with no extends is indeed overwhelming. I was only able to beat stage 5 by going beyond what I deemed acceptable as a strategy - meaning practice and practice again. and then some more practice.

There are times in stage 5 where positioning to the left or to the right, even just a single hitbox large, is enough to screw a perfectly planned and executed run. The lateral scroll after the mid-boss is the worst part of it.

And still I bomb twice. I bomb for safety against the midboss when he dies (only if I'm in my last life I will try to dodge). Aaaand I bomb once again against the mechanical spiders to wear them down and take them out one by one.

I hope I haven't forgotten all this when my copy arrives.

[iconoclast]

Maybe I'm just stating the obvious, but for the first stage 5 mid-boss, the exploding pods he shoots out have a light on them that signifies which way the bullets will fire. Pods with a green light mean the bullets will be aimed to the side of your ship, so you don't have to move when they explode, and pods with a red light mean the bullets are aimed directly at you, so just tap left or right as it explodes and you'll be safe. It took me a little while to notice that, so I figured someone might appreciate it if I point it out.

[Kollision]

Maybe I'm just stating the obvious, but for the first stage 5 mid-boss, the exploding pods he shoots out have a light on them that signifies which way the bullets will fire. Pods with a green light mean the bullets will be aimed to the side of your ship, so you don't have to move when they explode, and pods with a red light mean the bullets are aimed directly at you, so just tap left or right as it explodes and you'll be safe. It took me a little while to notice that, so I figured someone might appreciate it if I point it out.

Hmm... I never noticed that. I'll definitely try it.
thank you for saving me one bomb

[Kiken]

The whole stage is a load of bollocks really.

No it isn't. Stage 5 relies on structure, just like every other level in the game. The difference is that it's technically a boss-fest... the two large tanks near the beginning (when the stage starts scrolling horizontally), then the large VTOL plane, then the 5-car train, then the 3 hover tanks followed by the boss (who has 3 forms).

I know there's absolutely no chance of ever clearing that in 3 lives, let alone doing it after stages 1 to 4.

The stage is totally possible to do in a single life. I normally allow myself a bomb or two during the boss's second phase to clear away the exploding cannon balls (mainly because I hate dodging that attack), otherwise I don't bomb during the stage itself on the first loop (on loop 2 however, the added suicide bullets when certain enemies die can add enough of a random factor to make dodging things extremely risky, so I'm more likely to bomb in certain situations). As a rule, on the first loop, I only use bombs in two places: during the stage 4 boss battle and the stage 5 boss battle.

It a shame because the rest of the game is completely do-able. Deathsmiles syndrome strikes again.

What the hell does this even mean?

Stopping on stage 4 might have been a little bit too early difficulty-wise, but stage 5 seems like a mechanism for making people pump more coins into the game in order to finish it rather than a reasonable challenge that can be overcome legitimately.

Once again, I have no idea what you're talking about. In terms of outright difficulty, I would say that stage 3 is the most difficult level in the game. Most of that comes from the enemy placement during the diagonal scrolling sections of the level. Stage 5 certainly has the most difficult boss though, but most of that is due to the fact that it has multiple forms and there is no speed killing tactic like on the other four bosses.

I'm already hitting the ceiling on stage 4. If your option gets canceled or misses, you are fucked.

Don't deploy an option pod during enemy missile or explosive cannon shot attacks. Be mindful and watchful of the red target reticle when placing an option pod (specifically Rocket) to ensure that it is locked on properly.

If you accidentally get forced into picking up another option, you are fucked.

Be mindful of the bouncing pattern of the power-ups. Don't get greedy and go running after one during heavy enemy fire, leave it be until later. The power-ups have a dead-zone where they won't reach the player-copter (the bottom quarter of the play area, as well as the far left, right and top edge of the play area), use this to your advantage when moving around an undesirable pod-type power-up.

If you accidentally fire the option at the wrong point (leaving you none available later) you are fucked.

All of this boils down to understanding the level structure, enemy layout and the time involved between option pod charge up, deployment and cool down. It also helps to understand how recharging works... if you have deployed an option pod and a power-up is floating around the screen, assuming the power-up is the same weapon as what you're using, you must wait until the option pod has detonated (thus putting your option pod gage into Cool Down mode) before picking up the power-up.

If you don't have 3 lives at the start of the stage, you are fucked, even then you need to bomb like crazy because the game conspires to screw you over with its rank.

No you aren't. Why would you need to bomb like crazy because of the rank? All that the rank offset really changes are the appearance of bonus enemies. This isn't a Raizing game where everything from enemy shot aggression, to movement patterns, to hit-points changes depending on your progress (in fact, all of these are relatively constant in UD).

I might clear stage 4 in a run one day, but that's about as far as I can see it going because I'll never get to stage 5 with any lives left more than once in a blue moon and I've played stage 4 to death. I know everything about it. Where enemies are, where to fire the options... still doesn't guarantee any sort of success.

If you're dieing that often in stages 1 through 4, then you need to spend more time playing each of those levels to develop better patterns. Knowing the enemy placement and option pod deployment times is a good start, but developing solid pattern execution is paramount to performing well.

Now, I already realize that responding to DTP is essentially the same as talking to a brick wall, however, I would hope that the rest of you actively playing this game are able to take something useful from my responses.

[Kiken]

Maybe I'm just stating the obvious, but for the first stage 5 mid-boss, the exploding pods he shoots out have a light on them that signifies which way the bullets will fire. Pods with a green light mean the bullets will be aimed to the side of your ship, so you don't have to move when they explode, and pods with a red light mean the bullets are aimed directly at you, so just tap left or right as it explodes and you'll be safe. It took me a little while to notice that, so I figured someone might appreciate it if I point it out.

It should also be noted that on the first loop, the VTOL's mines will only be green unless you destroy one of the engines. On the second loop, the VTOL's mines can be either colour from the start.

[Kiken]

You have to set the 360 to widescreen in the console settings, that is now the only issue with running this game in 4:3. I've got mine pretty much perfect, with only a bit of one of the bomb icons and the last two letters of 'Please Wait/Press Start' on the 2p side cut off, and the HUD is enough in the outer perimeter of the playfield not to obscure my vision.

You can use the screen positioning to prioritize the small amount of HUD that is cut off anyway.

I can't believe G-rev hid the 4:3 option in the wallpaper settings, of all places, considering I bet most of us trying to tate this thing went straight to the 'black' setting and forgot about it.

Maybe I'm just dumb, but setting the PS3 to 16:9 in the display options and then choosing the wallpaper type "clear" option does not seem to work. The game overrides the PS3's 16:9 option and keeps things letterboxed at all times on a 4:3 CRT. I made a rather ranty VIDEO. I would appreciate it if you watched. Maybe you could give me some advice on what I'm doing wrong... Or maybe the PS3 version really is just gimped. Thanks.

UD-HD does not display 'correctly' in yoko on a 4:3 screen, period. Doesn't matter which console you play it on. The 'fix' that we've been discussing in this thread is for 4:3 tate display (so 3:4). On the 360, this is done by first going through the following settings on the console UI to change the output to anamorphic widescreen: Settings > System > Console Settings > Display > Screen Format > Widescreen

Once this has been done, go into the game and set the Wallpaper to 'Type Clear' under the Screen option tab. This will give a correct 3:4 aspect ratio to the play field (and it will fill the screen), however, the HUD, start-up selection screen and the end stage breakdown screens will still be in squished display (see the anamorphic widescreen tate image I posted earlier in the thread).

Apparently (according to your video), this fix only works on the 360 and is probably likely due to the differences in how the 360 and PS3 video scalers operate.

[ExitPlanetDust]

UD-HD does not display 'correctly' in yoko on a 4:3 screen, period. Doesn't matter which console you play it on. The 'fix' that we've been discussing in this thread is for 4:3 tate display (so 3:4). On the 360, this is done by first going through the following settings on the console UI to change the output to anamorphic widescreen: Settings > System > Console Settings > Display > Screen Format > Widescreen

Once this has been done, go into the game and set the Wallpaper to 'Type Clear' under the Screen option tab. This will give a correct 3:4 aspect ratio to the play field (and it will fill the screen), however, the HUD, start-up selection screen and the end stage breakdown screens will still be in squished display (see the anamorphic widescreen tate image I posted earlier in the thread).

Apparently (according to your video), this fix only works on the 360 and is probably likely due to the differences in how the 360 and PS3 video scalers operate.

Well, that's just fantastic.

Thanks for the reply, though. That clears up a lot.

edit: I updated my video description and title to reflect this information.

another edit: One thing I just thought of that I have not tried is to start the game up without any save data. I had played the game on my HD TV before testing it on my SD TV. Maybe, just maybe this will kill the letterbox and squish the image into full screen (in TATE at least).

[Special World]

Wow, I really don't remember the game being this brutal, and I played it on Dreamcast recently. The battleships in stage 2 are kicking my ass :X

I am a sad man.

ED: Is it just me, or is New Order way harder than Arcade? It seems like everything's zoomed in, so I have fuck-all room to maneuver around in. I should be using the twin sticks, but still.

Definitely G.Rev's best game, IMO. I think they should strive to stick with simplicity as much as possible.

[TLB]

the game conspires to screw you over with its rank.

Now, I already realize that responding to DTP is essentially the same as talking to a brick wall,

You only need to find one gun to smoke out an assassin. Firstly, the fact that he's saying something as insensible as that the game is "conspiring to screw you over" is a clear indicator that something is amiss. The two most likely possibilities are that he is incapable of retaining new information (which is clearly not the case), or he is baiting a response. I'll leave the rest of that difficult detective work up to the denizens of shmups forum.

Just because you've failed to communicate with him doesn't mean it's impossible, by the way. The entire time this whole "fuck DTP" thing has gone on, all it would have taken was a few people to "take him under their wing", so to speak, to solve most of his problems. This forum completely fails at communication on a massive scale. A few hundred posts per day don't necessarily contain any useful information. I'd leave it up to the denizens of shmups forum to figure out and extrapolate on this one, but I think it's a lost cause, so I'll just drop it there.

[stryc9]

Is it just me, or is New Order way harder than Arcade? It seems like everything's zoomed in, so I have fuck-all room to maneuver around in. I should be using the twin sticks, but still.

Definitely G.Rev's best game, IMO. I think they should strive to stick with simplicity as much as possible.

Really? in theory I was expecting a somewhat softer challenge from New Order, owing to the expansive screen real estate. But then I've been addicted to Arcade tate flat out since release and New Order necessitates me changing displays from my CRT to the plasma, so I don't yet know.

Must say I like it a lot more than Strania, although thats cool too.

Never did click with Senke no Ronde Duo, and I haven't yet tried Border Down. I really hope G-rev get enough sales from this to justify another 360 retail release

PS @ ExitPlanetDust: Checked the video, unfortunately I'm having trouble getting sound so I don't know what your commentary is saying while you mess with the screen options. probably a lot of swearing I would guess.

It does look like the end of the line as far as a fix goes for PS3 until they patch this thing.

But your trying to play in yoko on a 4:3 right? Might be time to tate that shit, or get a 16:9 display you can tate easily.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Whilst New order seems harder due to additional enemies, I'd say the biggest contributing factor is the rather claustrophobic ratio which gives you far less warning of approaching enemies compared to the 3:4 of the arcade mode.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I've already hit the limit on this game. Probably going backwards now.

I'd love to know genuinely what people's experience with practice is, because people make out as though they practice a level, learn it, and then no-miss it in the vast majority of runs. Not only does this obviously not happen for me, but I'd be more surprised if it actually did.

You cannot avoid all the crap on the screen all the time.... fact
You are going to nudge something by accident with not insignificant frequency... fact

Practice increases your chance of clearing a level from 0% to above 0%. It guarantees you no success on any given run though; frequently you'll make too many mistakes to clear it. Aside from playing games like this as a full time job (literally 10 hours per day year in year out) you cannot significantly diminish the role that luck plays in how you do on any given run, and the margins for human error cannot be eliminated entirely. Given the precise nature of the dodges required you're already pushing the limit of the what you can repeatedly do in terms of precision of movement. To pretend that you can faultlessly perform these moves with virtually zero errors over and over just isn't credible. We're talking about making 3 minuscule timing errors in the course of performing hundreds if not thousands of precise taps on a control pad.

Of course practice can make some difference, but you eventually and spectacularly hit a wall past which zero progress seems to be made, and apparent improvements are the result of temporary variations in luck more than anything conscious or learned.

From the folklore here it seems that if you clear a game then you clear it pretty easily and quickly, with progress being rapid and with little hindrance occurring past minor sticking points. Consistency is apparently never a problem and is not even a consideration.

From my experience it seems that if you hit a hurdle (at which point you need to seriously start drilling it in practice mode) and you are a long way off the end of the game then you might as well save yourself the time give up, because at the very least you will be blighted with severe trouble with consistency from this point onwards, and all subsequent levels will be very low percentage clears.

Probably should have stuck this in the complaints thread, but it has no context in there.

[Special World]

It's cool DTP, I can barely beat level 2, so you seem to be doing better than me.

I do have some other 1CCs, though.

[AntiFritz]

You cannot avoid all the crap on the screen all the time.... fact
You are going to nudge something by accident with not insignificant frequency... fact

Stopped reading their. Can't believe I'm even replying to this.

[Erppo]

When riding a bike, you are going to fall over by accident with not insignificant frequency... fact

[Kollision]

From the folklore here it seems that if you clear a game then you clear it pretty easily and quickly, with progress being rapid and with little hindrance occurring past minor sticking points. Consistency is apparently never a problem and is not even a consideration.

It's a private club.
Once the game is cleared and you're in all the sweat and those painfully shed tears will turn into gold gems of joy.


Seriously now
It's impossible to clear a game like Under Defeat without a great deal of dedication, meaning time spent with it. By the time I thought I was ready to do it in fact I wasn't, it still took me over two weeks of daily play to get it through.

If you've hit a wall like you say you did, quit playing for a few days and get back to it.

[Zeether]

I've already hit the limit on this game. Probably going backwards now.

I'd love to know genuinely what people's experience with practice is, because people make out as though they practice a level, learn it, and then no-miss it in the vast majority of runs. Not only does this obviously not happen for me, but I'd be more surprised if it actually did.

You cannot avoid all the crap on the screen all the time.... fact
You are going to nudge something by accident with not insignificant frequency... fact