Beauty on the outside, and whether you give a toss

[BPzeBanshee]

As the topic states.

I got into an interesting class at school this year where we tackle various social issues, and the concept of beauty is the current focus. Personally, I don't give a toss at all whatsoever to such an extent that I swear loudly at anyone that suggests I change any portion of my appearance. It insults me that I should be compared to some magazine or common stereotype as if its law.

Some people in some countries have quite different (and by western standards quite radical) views such as the whitening and bleaching of skin in Jamaica, India and other such countries, and the Suri lip plates etc. I'm curious as to what us guys on this forum think, and whether the general consensus follows a specific stereotype or not.

[Leader Bee]

As the topic states.

It insults me that I should be compared to some magazine or common stereotype as if its law.

Appearance doth not a man make.

I answered that it matters to me a little bit. This was unfortunately due to the expectations of society rather than my own opinion on how things work. The vast majority of people I would imagine care greatly about their appearance and like it or not the way you look impacts how people react to you.

While it should go down solely to your ability to do a job you aren't likley to get one in certain places if you don't look the part. Why would workplaces and nightclubs have a dress code if people didn't think appearance mattered.

On the flip side and souding like a hypocrite I make exactly the same judgements and I'd still like a nice clean looking girl rather than one that crawled out of a bin, but then we're getting on to the genetics discussion of why looks matter than the social question of why they do.

[neorichieb1971]

I think beauty on the outside is worth a glance. But if you try to get too close to beauty you end up being absorbed into it. Your standards will raise and you will need more money to be happy in the long run.

Beauty is always a trap.

[moh]

My philosophy on looks, especially when judging women, is that no matter how attractive someone is, you will eventually get used to it.
I once dated someone who I thought was really attractive at first, but after just a few short months, I got used to her and then I started to appreciate the other things (like how tolerable her personality is).

The initial "wow" factor can only last so long.

Now unfortunately, that doesnt keep me from not caring about my looks. We live in a society where people are superficial.

whatever D:

[RGC]

In some ways, I couldn't wait to be beyond that age (pre ~25?) where your peers tend to make you feel like it matters. I didn't give a toss back then, and I don't now. The only (minor) problem I have to deal with these days is the occasional filthy look at work from the odd <insert insult> who feels it's important - customer facing role or not - to wear an ironed shirt, polished shoes, trousers, and tie. Creased-up Tee/polo, a week's worth of neck beard, and curry-stained jeans FTW. As long as you don't smell, who cares!?

[Blackbird]

I find a person's personality is often reflected in their appearance. If someone puts a lot of effort into their appearance, it stands to reason that they might put forth a lot of effort in other areas of their lives, as well. On the other hand, people that cannot be bothered with appearances or hygiene are likely to be lax. It's a first impression and definitely not a rule, but it often bears out.

This is probably why such a big deal is made of looks. It's only partly that you just look good - it's the implication that you're willing to put in the effort that counts.

[RGC]

If someone puts a lot of effort into their appearance, it stands to reason that they might put forth a lot of effort in other areas, as well..

It's true. I've seen many examples of such people, going to great lengths regarding their appearance in other areas too. /flippant

[BulletMagnet]

If someone puts a lot of effort into their appearance, it stands to reason that they might put forth a lot of effort in other areas, as well.

More cynical buggers like myself might be inclined to suspect that such a person neglects or ignores other aspects of themselves/their lives for the sake of looking good at all times...in the end I'd imagine that examples of both are out there.

[Skykid]

If someone puts a lot of effort into their appearance, it stands to reason that they might put forth a lot of effort in other areas, as well..

It's true. I've seen many examples of such people, going to great lengths regarding their appearance in other areas too. /flippant

Is this a veiled nod to pubic grooming?

[Blackbird]

Lol, edited my post for clarity of meaning.

[RGC]

If someone puts a lot of effort into their appearance, it stands to reason that they might put forth a lot of effort in other areas of their lives, as well.

It's true. I've seen many examples of such people, going to great lengths regarding their appearance in other areas of their lives too.

No need to edit, your original post was perfectly clear. I was just making the same point as BulletMagnet, in a roundabout playful sort of way. Basically, yes, some of those people who take great care over looking "good" (we're talking men in their 30s and 40s who use hair gel/styling mousse, ffs*), who may also wear cuff-links and designer watches to work, often go to a lot of trouble to ensure they appear conscientious, loyal to their employer, motivated, and (often, centrally) useful in some way. Looks can be deceiving, indeed. ^_~

*yours, an embittered slaphead

[RGC]

Is this a veiled nod to pubic grooming?

I'm not even sure what that is, but it sounds wrong.

[drauch]

Eh...all depends on the situation. I work out and try to make myself look huge because I love action movies and Fist of the North Star. I don't know any women that think muscles are attractive, so it's really just my silly fantasy life shining through for self-gratification. I certainly am a fan of aesthetics and see beauty in a few different lights, but I'd say that I certainly have three eyes: one in my groin, and the two on my face in conjunction with my brain. The girls I fall for, date, fell in love with...it was all for what was inside (the brain/heart/soul-thingy). But yeah, it's silly to give a hoot on appearance as the overall factor, unless you are a lech.

[Never_Scurred]

I gotta check for the 5 B's (order/quantity subject to change depending on how much i've had to drink/smoke, or how horny I am)
1. Beauty (Would I want to be seen with the broad? What is her clothes, shoe, hair and feet game lookin' like?)
2. Booty (How much is she workin' with? Nothin' worse than a flatbooty bitch, I swear to god)
3. Breast (Negotiable upon how much booty she got to make up for it. But a nigga needs at least triple D's)
4. Brains (Does the bitch got common sense? No remedial hos. I'm Merriam fuckin' Webster, can't deal with a Hooked-On-Phonics ho)
5. Bread (Does the bitch got a job? Is she responsible or a club rat? Will I need to conceal-carry with this chick?)

[Davey]

I wasn't sure if you were talking about natural beauty or things that you can control (clothing, hair, makeup, etc.). As far as natural beauty goes, I don't know much about how beauty differs across cultures. But it seems plausible that regardless of what is considered attractive, our primitive lizard brains see beautiful people as being genetically gifted and thus deserving of a higher social status. Even if you're rational enough to acknowledge that such thinking is superficial and misguided, I'm sure physical appearances always affect our judgement, even if it's just subconsciously and only in minor ways.

Similarly to what BulletMagnet was getting at, though, our instincts can get to the point where we overcorrect our judgements and cast beautiful people in a negative light, e.g, dumb blonde stereotypes. I think I'm guilty of this myself, if for no other reason than I don't like strip clubs (I can't suspend my disbelief and pretend the stripper actually likes me - no woman who looks like that would ever talk to me willingly ).

As for the things you can control, I agree with Blackbird. If you make an effort to look good, it shows that you acknowledge society's rules and care enough to conform.

Proper attire is dictated by social protocol; it may not be perfect, and it may not line up with your tastes, but it's what society has settled on as being acceptable. You're free to disregard it, but be prepared to be judged accordingly. It's not fair, but then again it's not possible to know somebody's true character within the first few seconds of meeting them. The best we can do is make an educated guess based on the information we have, i.e., how they've chosen to present themselves.

It's not just limited to first impressions, though; how you look is just another form of nonverbal communication. Every piece of clothing you wear has passed the "it's ok for people to see me in this" test. That may not define you, but it certainly sends some sort of signal whether you realize it or not.

Disclaimer: I have no fashion sense and voted "Not Really".

[Ex-Cyber]

Basic hygiene is a must, but I don't think the extra-coiffed/made-up/tailored/bleached sort of appearance enhancement generally adds much to a person's appeal. When it gets to the point of Botox, cement hair, and blinding white teeth, it starts to creep up on the uncanny valley for me. More formal events call for a modicum of extra grooming effort and not wearing the totally wrong thing, but I'm not one to nitpick. I still remember some idiotic article from a few years back basically hyperventilating about how scandalous or bold (or whatever) it was for Hillary Clinton to wear a top that showed a tiny hint of cleavage on the floor of the Senate, like it was somehow supposed to be a shock that middle-aged lady senators might actually have boobs. I can live without criticizing peoples' appearances to that degree.

[maxlords]

I take a certain amount of care with my appearance. I didn't used to at all...as I have gotten older, I take more. This includes my clothing purchases and personal grooming. I have found that it makes a significant difference in how people respond to you and treat you. People are sheep. Might as well shear em!

That being said I'm not overly concerned with what people think or how they respond to my style and grooming choices. There are limits of course. Lots of people are WAY too crazy about that shit.

[neorichieb1971]

Yeah well, just as long as looking good doesn't equate to wearing $400 worth of gear every day.

There are simple ways to look good. For a guy, just cut your hair short and keep your teeth white. Your 90% of the way there. But that doesn't equate to beauty, only hygiene (or the illusion of hygiene).

Beauty is born natural, but kept in good shape. I was not born naturally beautiful, I grew up in the cheapest of crappy clothes.. Thank God for China aye!!!

[DEL]

Well I'll say my vote was 'Yeah, a little bit'. The reason why it wasn't 'a lot' is due to a recent new work colleague who took his outer appearance to previously unheard of levels . This guy would take ages grooming. No mirror or reflection in a window pane could be ignored by this guy. He was late for everything because of it. He took a new waistcoat to a tailor to remove a thread . To be honest, I couldn't even SEE the flaw.
The girls upstairs called him a Metrosexual.
So, compared to this guy, I'm definitely not in the 'a lot' category.

I like this guy, but he does fall into RGC's deceiving category

who may also wear cuff-links and designer watches to work, often go to a lot of trouble to ensure they appear conscientious, loyal to their employer, motivated, and (often, centrally) useful in some way. Looks can be deceiving, indeed. ^_~

Never_Scurred wrote for Justice;

2. Booty (How much is she workin' with? Nothin' worse than a flatbooty bitch, I swear to god)

^Also agreed.

[Casper<3]

I care, mostly because I'm overweight and am trying hard not to be. You could say I care more about my actual health than my looks but they go hand in hand.

I agree though with whoever said it above. The wow factor only lasts so long and you get used to seeing how someone looks and then they're just them.

[GaijinPunch]

The better your outer appearance, the better your employment. When I realized this, I started taking much better care of myself. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

On that note, I wear jeans and T-shirts to work, but that's mainly b/c I've secured my job. If I'm on the hunt again, I'll cut my hair, shave (eeek!) and bust out the nicer clothes.

[xbl0x180]

Oh, yeah, for a lot of job interviews, you gotta look like a million bucks. Sure, there are outliers and occasions where this is not the norm and you'll be assessed purely on merit and ability, but most of the time it's just attitude with a little bit of aptitude. Trust me. In real life, I am really shy to the point of being socially-anxious, but at work and school I force myself to act the opposite: be a swaggering, obnoxious, self-promoting braggart - and laugh and smile a lot. It's as if I'm playing at some rudimentary sociological experiment on acceptance based on attitude. I think the clothes help a little in getting away with some of the s**t I do and say.

I don't have natural, good looks (I'm short, fat, and dark-skinned), so I have to supplement it with slacks, long-sleeves, a tie (at least), and maybe accessorise with a peculiar watch with a notable face or trinket (tie clips, belt buckle designs). Shoot, just today when I was at a job site taking notes and photographs for a report, this one dude in a BMW was pissed 'cause he was freaked the hell out thinking I "looked like a lawyer" and hand't checked with him first if it was okay to go over the location (turns out, he was the owner). Suffice to say, people are shocked when they see me in a T-shirt and jeans.

When it comes to dating, if I'm not familiar with the girl, then she must be attractive; I've got nothing else to go by. For girls whom I'm acquainted with, I'd be willing to overlook some aspects of physical appearance. I mean, by the time I come to fancy her, I've already gauged her background, a little bit of her personality/humour, smarts/wit, and intelligence

[GaijinPunch]

Yes, all that helps and it sounds like you know how to look professional. But let's say you have really fucked up teeth... sucks and it may not be your fault, but you won't be the boss until you fix that shit.

[Eaglet]

The better your outer appearance, the better your employment. When I realized this, I started taking much better care of myself. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

This.
It helps with pretty much everything in life/society. At least it gives you a lower threshold to step over.

[system11]

I find a person's personality is often reflected in their appearance. If someone puts a lot of effort into their appearance, it stands to reason that they might put forth a lot of effort in other areas of their lives, as well.

It's funny, because in my line of work the people who dress well are always the ones who are entirely useless at their job. We get a lot of very well dressed technicians, and they've unfortunately been brought up in the business world, where success is based on appearances - then we try to get them to actually /do/ something, and it's always a let down.

What I personally can't tolerate is people who aren't clean - especially hair, and strong odours.

[RGC]

The better your outer appearance, the better your employment.

If "better" denotes more money and seniority, and excludes job satisfaction. I've worked for two companies who have partnered up with the US. In both cases, whenever we received visits they always came "dressed for power", regardless of rank, title, or salary. Think it's one of the subtle, or perhaps not-so-subtle cultural differences between limeys and yanks. My workplace is more as system11 describes his. The tech-heads wear jeans 'n' Tees and tend to focus on the tasks in hand (although from my experience they do distract easily, and some are definitely lazy bastards), while the air-heads wear suits and seem to focus on little but ensuring their opinion carries through all departments. This is their job justification. I take the jean-tee option because even though I'm not very technical, I know which camp I'd rather belong in. Plus, it saves having to differentiate weekday from weekend dress.*

Edit: Also, I have no stamina when it comes to foisting my opinions. Perhaps that proves the theory about appearances reflecting personality.

*It's dresses all week!

[GaijinPunch]

Obviously YMMV, but I am speaking generally. In a place like California it is much less common to wear a suit to work than say Chicago or New York. Also, I didn't want to come out in my statement and say it, but I wasn't just talking about clothing... looks are a part of it. If you think someone that's butt ugly is on the same playing field with someone that's very attractive, then you're high. To put it into perspective, I work in front office technology and I think the theory holds.

Now, being a bohunk like Chuck Norris is not going to save you if you're worthless at your job. Think of it like a college degree. It's not going to do much if you're a tit, but it will be a huge help to get you in the door.

As per before, I'm in the jean & t-camp. Wearing some right now. I still try to make sure it's a nice looking tee shirt, and that the jeans cup my buttocks ever so slightly.

[neorichieb1971]

Some people spend an awful lot their lives around looks/impressions, wondering what people think. I'm not like that. I don't even judge others by that. If I see a David Beckham advert it repulses me.

Its simply a vacuum space in my brain where that dept is concerned. If you need a bridge to get somewhere and dress/hygiene/plastic surjury is required for that, then go for it. If it means that much to you. Personally I don't care one iota.

[louisg]

This sums up my thoughts on the subject
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uceKqK7xYs

[BPzeBanshee]

It seems to me that two things are quite common here:
A) appearances are important for giving good impressions in the workforce for the purpose of maintaining employment (ie. not getting the sack or overlooked for promotion)
B) beauty and external appearance is tied with hygiene

I guess obvious sweating would be a subject of "things you can't stand" for most then, which as I mention it reminds me of a distinct difference between where I live and where the rest of the world lives; for example, in Darwin you can't do anything about sweating. Everyone sweats, therefore no one cares unless it's especially pungent, but you can't really tell in schools because everyone frequently uses deodorant as a futile attempt to hide/stop sweating which smells worse for your nose anyway, thus if you use such a strong deodorant you get suss looks anyway. Nasty cycle.

It also seems to me that women are somewhat under pressure to look good for the sake of first impressions in most cases. Now I'm no woman whisperer, but considering that, the silly makeup and over-9000-dollar shoes woman shopper stereotype makes a bit of sense now.