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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:01 pm 


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Why are you looking for dropouts Fudoh? I haven't seen any yet on my consoles, but of course I'm using C.sync on all of them, so I wasn't expecting any either :)


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:12 pm 



Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 36
RGB32E well at least I didn't mess up wiring the cable! But damn, I bought that Saturn from Akihabara myself while on holiday and I haven't really played it much as I was waiting to get an upscaler. Guess I'm waiting to see if firmware for the mini helps, the Saturn is mint and I really don't want to swap it.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:17 pm 


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basically just because I got a new saturn cable with raw sync and it doesn't have any capacitor or resistor. Just wanted to make sure it's fine under "extreme" conditions (and it is). And and because my MD and PCE have a few dropouts left.

Next up has to be some fix for the PS2's noise problem. The XSelect filtered a lot of the noise when going YUV2RGBHV both for 15 and 31khz signals. Now this I can't use on the Mini. Using the front Scart input on the XRGB-3 with a Sony RGB cable, but setting the console to YUV output did also help for 31khz signals.

With 15khz output I get pretty much noise on the PS2 with a YUV connection to the Mini. 15khz RGB on the same game is practically noise free, so it's the best choice right now (as long as the 480p chroma shift isn't fixed). RGB cable with RCA breakout into the D-Terminal input exhibits noise again. Scart into the RGB input, system set to YUV shows (of course) wrong colors, but no noise again. I really don't get it...


Last edited by Fudoh on Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:19 pm 


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@franjipane: just a wild guess, but have you tried removing the unnneccessary pins from the Saturn RGB cable (= switching voltage) and is your shielding intact (the Saturn doesn't have a GND pin, but uses the outer metal in the Scart plug for ground ? How does your Saturn look through composite ? Same problem ?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:40 pm 



Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 36
Hmm I left the unnecessary in, I'll try taking them out. As for the shielding do you mean one of the wires should be connected to the metal bracket that clamps around the plug? If so, I don't think anything is attached to that.

Over composite it's just your average, rubbish picture, but at least it shows the whole screen :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:53 pm 


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Quote:
As for the shielding do you mean one of the wires should be connected to the metal bracket that clamps around the plug? If so, I don't think anything is attached to that.

depends on how the shielding is wired. The saturn uses the outer connection ring as GND. Is that's wired to the cable's shielding, you can check where it's connected to at the Scart end. ideally it would be connected to the metal around the pins, to the video ground pin and to the audio ground pin. At least worth checking it out...


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:05 pm 


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The Mini doesn't use the switching voltage pins.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:21 am 


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It doesn't use it, right, but the pin's still connected and before buying another Saturn I would at least check if there's something irregular about the signal which might throw off the Mini.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:38 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
It doesn't use it, right, but the pin's still connected and before buying another Saturn I would at least check if there's something irregular about the signal which might throw off the Mini.


Well... Considering that I encountered the same issue with one of my Playstations, and it wasn't the cable (same cable worked fine on with a PS2), I'd say its likely the specific manufacturing revision of Saturn he has that's causing the issue, not the cable...

Besides, a Sega Saturn can be had for less than $30! I picked up two systems for $5 each a couple months back!


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:52 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
It doesn't use it, right, but the pin's still connected and before buying another Saturn I would at least check if there's something irregular about the signal which might throw off the Mini.


It's not connected to anything on my Mini. I realise I rewired the the RGB cable to Scart, but I did it right ;) There is nothing but GND, color, sound and sync in that cable.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:28 am 



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 38
Fudoh wrote:
Next up has to be some fix for the PS2's noise problem. The XSelect filtered a lot of the noise when going YUV2RGBHV both for 15 and 31khz signals. Now this I can't use on the Mini. Using the front Scart input on the XRGB-3 with a Sony RGB cable, but setting the console to YUV output did also help for 31khz signals.

With 15khz output I get pretty much noise on the PS2 with a YUV connection to the Mini. 15khz RGB on the same game is practically noise free, so it's the best choice right now (as long as the 480p chroma shift isn't fixed). RGB cable with RCA breakout into the D-Terminal input exhibits noise again. Scart into the RGB input, system set to YUV shows (of course) wrong colors, but no noise again. I really don't get it...


By any chance would the Mini support SoG on the RGB input? If so, you could leave the PS2 in RGB mode (even for 480p) and avoid the YUV noise.

The XRGB-3 doesn't support SoG and so I've resorted to using RGB to the XRGB-3 for 240p content, and YUV straight to my TV for 480p, in order to minimize PS2 noise in my current setup. It's too bad the Mini apparently has similar noise problems.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:51 am 


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Speaking of dropouts, I've experienced something strange.

I have a nice yellow Super Famicom that works fine without dropouts. This is one of the newer SNS-RGB-CPU-01 motherboards. Well yesterday, I picked up another Super Famicom that's nice and minty. This one has the exact same revision motherboard, and the serial number is very close to the first one. The minty SFC, experiences dropouts. It mainly occurs at the expected places: between screen transistions, or whenever the screen changes to mostly black or mostly white.

These two machines are identicle, so i'm convinced it's capacitor related. I don't have the equipment on hand to test the video signals, but what else could it be? Especially since the minty SFC is practically brand new, it points to dry caps.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:18 am 



Joined: 18 Nov 2011
Posts: 51
I don't understand, I have a raw sync saturn rgb lead from the retro console accessories ebay seller.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/200665089861 ... 1497.l2649

It gives a very unperfect image, with the sync streaks and so on. How come yours works perfect Fudoh?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:29 pm 


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I have the same cable, all fine on both my model 1 and model 2 saturn. Which exact Saturn model do you have ? Japanese ? Made by Sega ? Remember that PAL units, even when modified to 60Hz don't work with this cable as they don't output sync on the same pin as the japanese ones.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:12 pm 


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franjipane wrote:
RGB32E well at least I didn't mess up wiring the cable! But damn, I bought that Saturn from Akihabara myself while on holiday and I haven't really played it much as I was waiting to get an upscaler. Guess I'm waiting to see if firmware for the mini helps, the Saturn is mint and I really don't want to swap it.


Perhaps firmware updates will fix the sync issues. However, I completely forgot about a solution for that type of issue with the mini... The XSYNC-1 fixes this issue! However, you'd need a MSX to mini cable to connect the XSYNC-1 to the mini (8DIN to 8MDIN). I built such a cable for my XSYNC/mini.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:31 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
Using the pass-through on the XSYNC helps with sync problems?
I tried doing that with my RGB modded NES and I still got dropouts.

Sync is tapped from the composite video RCA plug.
Would it be better to tap the sync from a pin on the PPU chip directly?
Would adding caps or resistors on the sync line help, or is it just a matter
of adding a sync cleaner / video sync separator?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:38 pm 


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alamone wrote:
Using the pass-through on the XSYNC helps with sync problems?
I tried doing that with my RGB modded NES and I still got dropouts.

Sync is tapped from the composite video RCA plug.
Would it be better to tap the sync from a pin on the PPU chip directly?
Would adding caps or resistors on the sync line help, or is it just a matter
of adding a sync cleaner / video sync separator?


The XSYNC-1 fixes the 480i not displaying with my Saturn, and allows my SCPH-5501 Playstation to display. The 8 pin din output from the XSYNC-1 is buffered, and not a simple pass-through. I'll open the XSYNC-1 one of these days to take PCB pics.

The RGB NES PPUs don't output composite video on pin 20, they output composite sync. So it sounds like you're using the existing circuitry buffer the sync. I removed the transistor on my NES and connected pin 20 to my NJM amp for buffering.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:52 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
I'm using the THS7314 3-channel amplifier IC for the RGB, so there's no line for sync.
Would it make a difference if I rerouted the sync line to not use the existing circuitry?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:58 pm 


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Quote:
The XSYNC-1 fixes the 480i not displaying with my Saturn

haha, this really gets complicated! Just for reference, I tried Colums 97 on the Saturn (which is running in 480i) and it works fine with all Saturn/cable combinations I have available.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:45 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
The XSYNC-1 fixes the 480i not displaying with my Saturn

haha, this really gets complicated! Just for reference, I tried Colums 97 on the Saturn (which is running in 480i) and it works fine with all Saturn/cable combinations I have available.


Well... I didn't have the same issue as pictured by another user trying to play Radiant Silver Gun. I'm using CSYNC for my latest round of tests with the Saturn. The title screen for RSG (480i) eventually shows up consistently after a while without using the XSYNC-1. With the XSYNC-1, the picture is consistent (locks on to 480i everytime). Also, with the XSYNC-1 the mode switching delay between 240p/480i is much quicker. I'll add a VIDEO/SYNC switch for pin 9 and see if that makes a difference.

The biggest problem with the Saturn is that there are MANY different revisions... it's not just a matter of oval vs. round buttons!


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:57 pm 



Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 36
Complicated indeed!

I haven't had a chance to check what extra wires are connected in the cable yet, but if that doesn't sort it I think I'll be waiting to see if firmware fixes it before shelling out for more hardware. I will have plenty of fun with the SFC in the meantime, and I've ordered a Japanese MD1 to replace my Asian MD as well :D


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:02 am 



Joined: 18 Nov 2011
Posts: 51
Fudoh wrote:
I have the same cable, all fine on both my model 1 and model 2 saturn. Which exact Saturn model do you have ? Japanese ? Made by Sega ? Remember that PAL units, even when modified to 60Hz don't work with this cable as they don't output sync on the same pin as the japanese ones.


It's a White Japanese Sega one.

SEGA SEGA SATURN
MODEL NO. HST-3220


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:03 pm 


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Quote:
and I've ordered a Japanese MD1 to replace my Asian MD as well

that wouldn't have been neccessary. The Asian MDs are very nice japanese units with great picture quality. All it needs is a little soldering bridge between two points to make it output 60Hz again. You can even leave the PAL quartz inside if you intend to use RGB only.

Has anyone tested a PSP on the Mini yet ? I can't really warm up with the results. Right now the XRGB-3 looks WAY better with the PSP. Setting the horizontal scaling to 6 is quite blurry (way blurrier than on the Optoma), setting it 5 seems to mix up the pixel columns (e.g. you get a a grey pixel column between a black and a white one, which would be ok it would be a the thickness of a display pixel, but it's the thickness of a PSP source pixel - anyway, looks way weird). Sharpness 1 adds a waxy look which I don't like (that's probably caused by the general chroma shift problem with 480p sources). 720p output in Meister mode, with zoom level "LB" looks ok, but to be honest, it looks more like composite video video than RGB or component and it isn't fullscreen of course.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:53 am 


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A 480p game like Guilty Gear on PS2, with H and V_scaler both set to 6 and sharpness set to 1 looks incredible sharp, almost like the Optoma. Apart from the "broken up" horizontal lines of course. Changing anything in the H/V_scaler settings makes it look quite blurry compared to the Optoma. If they could fix that stuff I wonder if it would look anything like the Optoma? :)


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:17 am 



Joined: 18 Nov 2011
Posts: 51
Where the hell is my converter? I can try PSP as well when I have it.

Fudoh are one of your saturn's the same model as mine?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:10 pm 


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This looks interesting... We'll see if it pans out..!

http://forums.benheck.com/viewtopic.php ... 4&start=15

I'm tempted to order one of these:

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-2q- ... -25l5.html

I have the component version (3 RCAs), but haven't located the D-Term adapter that was included with my XRGB-3! :shock:

@Fudoh.... was it blurry for you... like composite video??? Really? Does the mini add dot crawl too? :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:35 pm 


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That would be cool... A composite emulator.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:13 pm 



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 138
Re. the issues with Saturn cables.

Sega put caps etc inside the console on the outputs for the Sony CXA1645 IC which made me think no caps etc are needed in the cables. I did some general research and the web backs me up on this, however I have had some reports of certain revisions of NTSC console that do sound as if from the outputs people are getting that Sega may have missed caps and resistors off the board. This is not a 100% thing though, for example I have sold many cables to Brazil, but somebody in Europe with a Brazilian Saturn has reported getting an oversaturated picture which definitely sounds like resistors or caps, or both are needed in the cable. Or it could well be that the caps in the console were present, but faulty after all this time and need swapping out.

I must also add that this same buyer tld me the same cable worked fine on a Japanese Saturn he had, so nobody seems to get the same results for everything.

If you got a bad picture, there is the possibility the PAL version of the cable will work for you (as it uses composite instead) and this definitely doesn't need extra components. But then, you may just be needing those extra components on the RGB lines.

So basically if you are getting a bad picture please let me know the revision of board you use, and my advice is if you know anything about soldering to add the usual 220uF caps into the cable (if you don't have any I can send you some), if that does not work look into whether your console might need replaced caps.

The Japanese Saturn should definitely not need caps on RGB and the official Sega cables (21 pin RGB) testify to this, but they might need a capacitor on the sync line.

Fudoh are you getting a DC voltage reading on non capped sync, out of interest?

I may just add caps, but this in itself has caused problems with some cables. I was putting them in Nintendo cables but it really does not seem like they are needed. I don't have access to every revision of console so I thought I would use them as a failsafe, then I had somebody tell me it worked without caps but not with.

One other issue somebody had in USA - cable with sync did not work but cable with composite worked fine. I had him send back the first one (sync) and tested it, it worked fine on my equipment. He was using some generic crappy HDMI upscaler. Enough people have bought this cable though and had zero issues that I can deal with the odd return. With sync you find it can fix some issues (like the composite based cables that do not work in 60Hz on some SCART TVs) but then you get other issues with compatibility on other devices.

People keep asking me for sync based Genesis 1 cables. I have had too many compatibility issues with these (that I had happen personally to myself) to confidently sell them on eBay, thanks to the feedback system. But if you absolutely want one and think there is no issue with your equipment and are also prepared to pay postage on any necessary returns that result from the possible issues with them, just drop me an eBay message and I can wire up your cable for sync.

Yes we did know about the 220uf cap being needed on the sync line for both Genesis 1 and 2, but as Genesis 1 sync absolutely did not work on my Samsung TV back in the UK, whereas Genesis 2 sync did, I was not overly confident selling the cable.


Last edited by Retro Access on Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:25 pm 


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revisited the PSP. Played around with the scaler settings and found settings which bring the picture close enough to the XRGB-3's. The H_SCALER has to be set to 8, V_SCALER to 6 and SHARPNESS to 2. The aspect ratio for PSP in LBX mode is slighty wrong though. If you max out the V_SIZE option it's fine.

XRGB-3 on top, Framemeister at the bottom.

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:46 pm 


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To answer my previous question about 480p sharpness.

If you connect a 480p source to the Mini and change the setting to this:

1080p output
Sharpness: 1
AUTO_SCALER: GAME
SMART_X2

The results are pretty damn impressive, and almost up to Optoma standard :O I'm using Guilty Gear XX Accent Core Plus on the PS2 to try this, but also the Wii looks very nice with these settings.
This only works with SMART_X2 and therefor only in 1080p which the Mini scales badly in STANDARD and NORMAL2 modes. Some horizontal lines in a 240p MegaDrive game appear thicker when using 1080p but looks right in 720p. It makes me wonder how good scanlines can get in 1080p unless they do something about the scaling...

Someone else please verify these settings with a 480p game. I think it looks amazing, but of course it isn't of much use at this point unless you don't mind playing with a smaller screen...


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