Appreciation of 8ing/Raizing

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

stuff

I still don't see exactly what makes suiciding an inherently bad thing. You find it annoying. OK. What makes it annoying and how is it worse than Cave things like having to NMNB most of the game for a decent score or not being allowed into the 2nd loop without fulfilling the right requirements?

I should have worded my post differently. It's not so much a flaw but just a design issue I personally don't like at all. I don't particularly like the the requirements you posted about either, but they don't turn me off as bad as suiciding to control rank. It's like it goes against everything ever in a game. Yagawa goes overboard with his rank ideas, as far as for making ideal shooters to my liking, is all. And I'm not alone or else there would be no Ibara Kuro or reset button switches on Garegga cabs.

[jepjepjep]

If you don't like controlling rank, that's what Batrider normal course is for .

One thing about Raizing that really stands out to me is their amazing spritework.

[Estebang]

That's not really the best example of "amazing spritework," because it's pieced together from sections of other bosses. Still, I don't disagree with you.

[NTSC-J]

Suiciding sucks really bad.

I've got some bad news for you, Muchi Muchi Spork...

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

If you mean the suiciding people do in Muchi Pork to keep the rank down, it isn't mandatory. It's possible to clear it in 1 man (or so I've heard). It isn't my favorite game in the world either, just a user name for the board.

[NTSC-J]

In MMP you don't suicide to lower rank, but to score. The scoring system is built around it. The first boss alone is like 3 or 4 suicides. Still, getting to the second loop requires you to not die at all, so there's that.

I just pointed it out because it was funny that someone who doesn't like suiciding named themselves after one of the most suicide-heavy games in the genre.

[Ghegs]

Bickering moved elsewhere, back on topic.

[Acid King]

I think forced suiciding to get a 1CC is a bad design idea. Do any of you guys like it? It's fun to kill yourself? I still like the games, but only about as much as Pink Sweets for the same reason. Suiciding sucks really bad. And I'm talking about the arcade Pink Sweets, I haven't played the port where the ranking was supposedly changed. Aside from even that though, I enjoy the IKD style gameplay more than anything else.

Considering all of Raizings games (Mahou, Kingdom Grandprix, Souky, Garegga, Batrider, Bakraid, Dimahoo, Brave Blade) suicide-for-1cc get an undue amount of attention. With maybe the exception of Garegga, none of those actually become prohibitively difficult if you don't plan your deaths (Dimahoo maybe too, though I don't have much experience with that one, maybe someone else can chime in on that) to clear the game. It's really only higher level score play where you need to consider it and even then, different factors affect how you suicide in each of the games, like character order in Batrider (for triggering hidden bosses) and chaining route in Bakraid. It's just another layer of strategy, I don't get why people bitch about it so much.

For what it's worth, I'd take Batrider and Bakraid over any individual Cave game. I love Cave's stuff, but Raizing's games offer a wider variety of challenges/game approaches.

[Bananamatic]

Dimahoo gives only 2 extends and has unreducable rank

[Vamos]

Doesnt dimahoos rank only increase with each item set / multiplyer increase?

[Bananamatic]

yeah, it's fucking hard regardless though

[hwl]

Only good 8ing/Raizing game is Dimahoo. True story. :X

[Vamos]

Only good 8ing/Raizing game is Dimahoo. True story. :X

Yo dawg we heard you like herp so we a put a derp in your herp so you can herp whilst you derp .

[IseeThings]

You mean you actually play original Raizing games with all that horrible input lag you guys keep moaning about?

[RSmith]

Bickering moved elsewhere, back on topic.

Ghegs, it looks like your law is in full effect in this thread.

[Korszca]

If KGP has rank, you can't reduce it and you only get 2 extends - 1 per loop.

[louisg]

Only good 8ing/Raizing game is Dimahoo. True story. :X

I like that one a lot, scoring aside. Have you played the original game in the series though? I think it's more solid, even though it is a bit lower tech.

Raizing games are great. I love their level designs- they're some of the best of any shmup developer. They have consistently good pacing, clever ideas, lots of variety, good atmosphere (if that counts for anything), and they're not afraid to experiment. But, I always feel like they could use a little more playtesting to iron out difficulty spikes and what-not (the what-not being what I am tired of arguing about ). None of this of course prevents Soukyugurentai from being one of my all time favorite shooters.

[Randorama]

May I do a little bit editing on your post, Louis? Just to make a precìs.

Raizing games WERE great. I love their level designs- they're some of the best of any shmup developer. They HAD consistently good pacing, clever ideas, lots of variety, good atmosphere (if that counts for anything), and they WERE not afraid to experiment [this passage really sounds funny, in the present tense, N.D.R.]. But, I always feel like they could HAVE USED a little more playtesting to iron out difficulty spikes and what-not (the what-not being what I am tired of arguing about ). None of this of course prevents Soukyugurentai from being one of my all time favorite shooters.

Raizing WERE a great company, no doubt.

However, Raizing WERE also two development groups, one based around Yagawa and another made of ex-Compile guys who didn't want to churn Puyo Puyo titles for a living.

Sokyugurentai and the Dimahoos were by the latter group. Brave Blade too, I think. Both groups shared the features listed above, but used rank and lives in different ways.

In the Dimahoos and Sokyugurentai deaths are an option that can calm down rank, but are a peripheric game mechanic, in the economy of the game. Their use of bombs was also pretty "mainstream", too. Yagawa titles used the idea in a quite more complex way, much like bombs. The compile group (who then became Milestone, btw) tended to be more conservative, in this regard.

Also, The Compile group had this habit of concentrating key score events in the last stages. Sokugurentai's last stage with the Red Ship can be worth around 15 M, out of an ideal 30 M run. Yagawa (Raizing) titles are somewhat more evenly distributed, although they also involve key events (Flamingoes in Garegga).

Ironically, when Yagawa moved to Cave, a similar dichotomy between him and the IKD-based game arose.

...and by the way, where's the Sokyugurentai's hi score thread?

[Vamos]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=24054

[psoslayer]

May I do a little bit editing on your post, Louis? Just to make a penis

Fixed since louisg was already on spot. I just wish CAVE would get hold of their IPs and make sequels of Batrider etc.

[louisg]

In the Dimahoos and Sokyugurentai deaths are an option that can calm down rank, but are a peripheric game mechanic, in the economy of the game. Their use of bombs was also pretty "mainstream", too. Yagawa titles used the idea in a quite more complex way, much like bombs. The compile group (who then became Milestone, btw) tended to be more conservative, in this regard.

Yeah, in Souky, I find that controlling rank doesn't really make as big a dent in the difficulty as I would have thought. I *do* find that the st3 boss seems to be either very easy or extremely difficult, and IIRC Alamone was saying that this is related to how many parts you blow off.

Speaking of Souky, is there any reason at all to use the other webs? I find that they are underpowered to the point of uselessness, almost like the weapon selection in Iridion 2 where the only feasible gun is the straight shot.

[MathU]

The compile group (who then became Milestone, btw)...

MileStone is composed of people who stuck around at Compile until the end; people who worked on Zanac X Zanac. Unless those Raizing people came back to Compile briefly, they're not the same group.

[Randorama]

Yeah, in Souky, I find that controlling rank doesn't really make as big a dent in the difficulty as I would have thought. I *do* find that the st3 boss seems to be either very easy or extremely difficult, and IIRC Alamone was saying that this is related to how many parts you blow off.

Rank management becomes irrelevant on the last Stage. Differently from Garegga, the game has a threshold rank for each stage. Rank will be adjusted, if you have been able to keep it below the threshold level.

So, if you reach the final stage on your last life, a poor score and with a basic shot, the rank level will be the same as if you reach the stage with 2 lives and one or two shot levels.

Speaking of Souky, is there any reason at all to use the other webs? I find that they are underpowered to the point of uselessness, almost like the weapon selection in Iridion 2 where the only feasible gun is the straight shot.

It depends on the section and the context. Lasers are faster than "fire-balls", and do not lose power if the locked target goes farther/off screen. They are very useful for those sections which have a lot of zaku/pop-corn enemies. The challenge is to switch back and forth, in that case.

MileStone is composed of people who stuck around at Compile until the end; people who worked on Zanac X Zanac. Unless those Raizing people came back to Compile briefly, they're not the same group.

Three or four programmers from Raizing merged "back" with the group who did Zanac X Zanac. They should have worked on Zanac, actually. I can't remember who, though.

[louisg]

It depends on the section and the context. Lasers are faster than "fire-balls", and do not lose power if the locked target goes farther/off screen. They are very useful for those sections which have a lot of zaku/pop-corn enemies. The challenge is to switch back and forth, in that case.

Oh ok. That sounds like more of a scoring opportunity than something useful for survival. I've only really done that on the beginning of the last stage, where the lasers give you less room to maneuver.

[Aguraki]

is this legit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Ju7QDI ... re=related

i love garegga batrider and the mahous(but dimahoo is really too hard for me).
the atmosphear in these game is incredible and also you have(it seems) a feeling of freedom you don't have in cave.
Musics are fantastic and characters you actually get to like them and know them.

[Vamos]

Not sure if legit but having just watched the last stage there seems to be some frequent stabs of slowdown that dont seem right to me at all . The bkheart2 battle i dunno man something doesnt seem right to me at all check how he finishes that battle for a start . If it is legit that guy is mental and extremely risky/confident but like i said something isnt right .

[Korszca]

I think it's safe to assume the Krocketneo's videos aren't legit. Which is not to say they're not entertaining and that you can't learn anything from them, but they're almost certainly all tool-assissted.

[Vamos]

Yeh definitely my guess is hes playing the game in slow motion .

[Wenchang]

However, Raizing WERE also two development groups, one based around Yagawa and another made of ex-Compile guys who didn't want to churn Puyo Puyo titles for a living.

Sokyugurentai and the Dimahoos were by the latter group. Brave Blade too, I think. Both groups shared the features listed above, but used rank and lives in different ways.

Yuichi Toyama is the programmer who was responsible for the Mahou Daiskusen series and Soukyugurentai in the same way you would say Yagawa was responsible for Garegga, Batrider, and Bakraid. Brave Blade was mostly the work of a bunch of younger people. It's not really in the same category. Toyama worked for Namco Bandai at one point but he was never with Milestone. It's also worth nothing that Kazuyuki Nakashima from Compile actually worked on Battle Garegga and some of the Mahou Daisakusen games.

And I don't believe Milestone really had any of the major Compile people who made them great like Moo Niitani, Jemini Horono, and Janus Teramoto or the above mentioned Raizing people. And aside from Toyama and Yagawa, most of the programmers + Nakashima stayed on with Eighting and actually worked on Bloody Roar games. The old Toaplan guys who worked on Bakraid and Dimahoo left the industry as far as I know.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Only good 8ing/Raizing game is Dimahoo. True story. :X

It's the only one I've played that I've found good. But I do have a few others I need to try. It's is extremely hard to get extends though, and I haven't played it seriously.