Are there any other shmups with rank systems like Battle Gar

[bombman]

egga, where not dying (or something else) makes the game too hard to win by the end?

[Estebang]

I believe Batrider and Pink Sweets are the only real other examples. Rank in Bakraid and MuchiPork is negligible, and it only has a temporary effect in games like Zanac. Dunno about Ibara.

[Korszca]

Ibara, Pink Sweets, Batrider.
All are basically impossible without dying.
(Hint: there's something eerily in common with these games )

[mesh control]

iirc Ket no missed garegga and someone on youtube no missed batrider with Tag-T.

[alastair jack]

There is also Yagawa's game on PS vita, but its not out yet.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Burp.

[Captain]

Hellsinker has "stella" as a ranking system.

[Dave_K.]

There is also Yagawa's game on PS vita, but its not out yet.

Where did you hear that Cave's shooter for PS vita is a Yagawa game?

Back on topic, other Raizing games (non-Yagawa) with rank:
- Soukyugurentai
- Dimahoo
- Brave Blade

[alastair jack]

Was a guess.

[Seahawk]

Most of Konami's arcade games have similar "counter" style rank systems, where the biggest factor in the counter's increment cycle is time since last death. Combine it with the rank increase from powering up (all of them), and for some games the rank increase from just scoring well (Gokujou & Sexy Parodius), and you get games that happily go berserk if you're good enough to avoid dying for a while.

The Parodius game will get really, really difficult if you don't ever die.

Of course, "impossible" is a subjective description.

[BPzeBanshee]

Does Recca have dynamic rank?

[Kollision]

Recca has no rank.

[BulletMagnet]

Would Border Down possibly count?

[Deca]

You can no miss these games, but generally through very conservative play and conscious rank control.

[BPzeBanshee]

Recca has no rank.

Oh, so it's just consistently balls-hard all the way through. Thanks for the info.

Xeno Fighters R has a rank difficulty system starting from v0.10. It doesn't play like Battle Garegga though and the only thing the rank does is change bullet speeds and density.

[MX7]

Cyvern has dynamic rank, and it's the best game Raizing never made.

[spl]

Cyvern has dynamic rank, and it's the best game Raizing never made.

Please don't compare Cyvern to any Raizing games again.

[Drachenherz]

Cyvern has dynamic rank, and it's the best game Raizing never made.

Do you touch yourself with those fingers you just used for typing this, uarch, kind of comparison?

[Skykid]

Ibara, Pink Sweets, Batrider.
All are basically impossible without dying.
(Hint: there's something eerily in common with these games )

They're all conceived by a maniac.

[kernow]

Was a guess.

*lifts hand slowly to face*

[Eaglet]

They're all conceived by a maniac.

A lovely maniac.

[kernow]

It wasn't that exciting, if you read the translated interview from the Cave book, it's simply to get more money, nothing mad professor about it. Just a clever system to make you put more coins in.

All this 'oh my god Yagawa sits at his desk in a lab coat with frizzy white hair rambling nonsense to himself, sleeping under his desk and only eating safety pins dipped in mayonaise while painstakingly crafting the most insane rank systems to make the players squeal with delight and rabid fanboyism' business, in which reality it's just a normal guy pretty much doing some coding.

[Drachenherz]

It wasn't that exciting, if you read the translated interview from the Cave book, it's simply to get more money, nothing mad professor about it. Just a clever system to make you put more coins in.

All this 'oh my god Yagawa sits at his desk in a lab coat with frizzy white hair rambling nonsense to himself, sleeping under his desk and only eating safety pins dipped in mayonaise while painstakingly crafting the most insane rank systems to make the players squeal with delight and rabid fanboyism' business, in which reality it's just a normal guy pretty much doing some coding.

Spoilsport!

[Eaglet]

It wasn't that exciting, if you read the translated interview from the Cave book, it's simply to get more money, nothing mad professor about it. Just a clever system to make you put more coins in.

However; it is what he did with this "money-grubbing" system that actually made it interesting.
He could have taken the easy way out and just have rank increase exponentially with no way to counter act it.
Instead, he made a system that encourages conservative play - making due with what you've got - and basically makes it necessary to score if you want to clear the game.
Very creative.

All this 'oh my god Yagawa sits at his desk in a lab coat with frizzy white hair rambling nonsense to himself, sleeping under his desk and only eating safety pins dipped in mayonaise while painstakingly crafting the most insane rank systems to make the players squeal with delight and rabid fanboyism' business, in which reality it's just a normal guy pretty much doing some coding.

This.
I think what makes him the "odd one" at Cave is that he's the least abnormal one.
Reading the interview i got the impression that he doesn't understand the otaku-pandering marketing at all.
There was something about him being the only one not having a desk full of plastic models...

[zaphod]

To no miss garegga you pretty much have to play a full pacifist game, never shooting when not required, and never killing anything not required.

I believe the game cannot be cleared without dieing and a 75 percent or greater kill rate. unless you use tool assistance

Zanac's rank system is much more transparent, and you don't actually have to die to manage it. It's tied to number of times you shoot (so don't shoot at nothing), and what powerups you activate (using the shield powerup kicks the ranking system into overdrive as it send tons of enemies at you to try and wear down the shield), and the game tells you how it's ranking system works in the manual. It also has a convincing in story reason as to why they don't just send an army instead a lone teeny ship.

In Garegga, your lives are considered resources to be used, just like the bombs. In other games, they are insurance against player error.

Border down has fairly severe rank, BUT... Its advantageous to keep the rank as high as you can handle, because as rank rises, so does your scoring potential.

[Frederik]

It wasn't that exciting, if you read the translated interview from the Cave book, it's simply to get more money, nothing mad professor about it. Just a clever system to make you put more coins in.

However; it is what he did with this "money-grubbing" system that actually made it interesting.
He could have taken the easy way out and just have rank increase exponentially with no way to counter act it.
Instead, he made a system that encourages conservative play - making due with what you've got - and basically makes it necessary to score if you want to clear the game.
Very creative.

There´s another element to this: Of the Yagawa games I´ve played that involve suicide to keep the rank low, intentionally killing yourself give you another big bomb which can then be used to score - for instance the flamingo section at stage 2 of Gargegga, where you can pound the birds with bombs and easily get an extend from that. Or the boss milking in Muchi Pork, where bombing transforms bullets into P symbols to boost your score. Or even Batrider, where killing yourself let´s you switch to a strategically better member of your team.

So really, it´s not just killing yourself to keep the rank low, but to score higher, which in turns gives you extends that make up for your suicides. In my opinion Yagawa games used bombs in much more creative ways than the other Cave games where bombs are just a panic button and usually mean a drop in your score.

In Garegga, your lives are considered resources to be used, just like the bombs. In other games, they are insurance against player error.

Exactly! Well put. It really adds more layers of strategy to these games.

[Quartrez]

Gradius IV has a rank system like that. Everytime you make it through a stage without dying (I think), the difficulty raises a notch. And when you die, the difficulty resets, making recovery somewhat more possible than in other Gradius games.

[dunpeal2064]

I believe Gun Frontier has rank directly tied to your firing rate, used as an "anti auto-fire" mechanism.

Its not the same style of rank, but most likely influenced the rank in Garegga (and a lot of other things in Garegga)

[zaphod]

Gradius games have always tied rank to your powerups. This is, in fact, one of the original rank systems. It's most obvious in the NES gradius game, where entering the konami code causes an immediate jump in enemy firepower. Most of them also make the game more difficult if you manage not to die for a while. People tend to not notice, though, because the starting ship speed is SO slow that deaths are very difficult to recover from in most of the gradius games, even after the rank drop. And min rank on later stages is still brutal.

It's ironic that people talk of Gradius Syndrome when the game in fact has dynamic rank. It's just that the starting ship is so woefully underpowered that it has difficulty recovering anyway.

[Eaglet]

There´s another element to this: Of the Yagawa games I´ve played that involve suicide to keep the rank low, intentionally killing yourself give you another big bomb which can then be used to score - for instance the flamingo section at stage 2 of Gargegga, where you can pound the birds with bombs and easily get an extend from that.

To be more precise; suiciding gives you half a full bomb.
And if you're suiciding before the birds you can easily get 2 extends if you use Gain or Miyamoto.
I play Golden Bat and since the "weapon" is less controllable i never suicide before that section. Still get out of there with 1,5 mil+.
I find it more useful to no miss until the second boss and start suiciding there; to bomb after fifth attack and get bombs for the medal-spewing section at the start of stage 3.

In Garegga, your lives are considered resources to be used, just like the bombs. In other games, they are insurance against player error.

Exactly! Well put. It really adds more layers of strategy to these games.

That's what i love about Yagawa games. There are so many more factors to take into consideration than in for example Ikeda games that gameplay becomes much more free-form.
Which i love.