Too close for comfort? the revival?

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Drachenherz
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Drachenherz »

xMetalliCx wrote:joeboto
thanks for tip, I tried go to pugsy's forum few days ago, but at that moment it was down, now I finally got that cheats ;)
but anyway, atm I miss God-mode official superplay, so I'll check it later.

Kewne
thanks, yes, looks like on original stage3 boss really lack slowdowns.

BPzeBanshee
I think compare slowdowns with X360-ports is kind of useless, because that ports also probably uses something like "blitter fillrate delay emulation"

2ALL
well, as I promised, here is another "slowpoke" test build.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/gbmn2b
it have tweakable "blitter delay", so feel free to go at "Slider Controls" and change it to more correct value (and post here that value ;) ).

the default value is "50%" and equal to 15 nanoseconds per pixel, if you increase it to 100% - delay will be *2, and vice versa (I used formula (15 * input_port_read(space->machine(), "BLITRATE") / 50) to calculate perpixel delay)
Womderfull! Thank you so much! At my pc, setting the slider at 66 - 67 % makes Mushi Futari BL feel almost like the 360 port, if that helps.
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NTSC-J
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by NTSC-J »

Dave_K. wrote:
NTSC-J wrote:Sorry for the glare, but in addition to the middle B-button being a normal rapid shot, the three in the bottom row are for the custom rapid shot (see next pic), rapid shot for bomb and a rapid shot for your options.
Not to derail the comfort level of this topic further, but can you confirm what each button is again because it would seem to me that top row middle button should be normal bomb,not rapid shot (but I can't read Kanji).

Top row: A = Normal Shot, B = Rapid Shot? (what speed? or custom?), C = Option
Bottom row: A = Custom Rapid Shot, B = Rapid Bomb 30/Sec, C = Rapid Option 30/Sec
The top row middle button says normal/rapid. You're right, it probably is the bomb button.
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BPzeBanshee
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by BPzeBanshee »

nZero wrote:@BPzeBanshee - the incorrect slowdowns in the 360 version of Galuda 2 already draw a lot of complaints from the PCB players, the ports are not a good basis for
Obviously the ports aren't going to be exactly accurate, but they ARE somewhat close approximations of how the PCB worked and would serve as a beginning basis for getting the slowdown right as I stated before, so its more of a case of stepping stones here - you can't dismiss the ports for not being accurate compared to MAME when MAME is even less accurate to begin with, but get it to the level of the port and you've jumped a few stones towards being exact. Now we're at the appromixation stage where we tweak away from that value to try and get it just right.

I don't suppose you'd know the accuracy of the Deathsmiles ports? I know Galuda 2 wasn't perfect but I was under the understanding that the PAL/Japanese editions of the ports for Deathsmiles were pretty close.

Now that the build is out, I shall get to work. I'll post later when I get the time.
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AntiFritz
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by AntiFritz »

BPzeBanshee wrote:
nZero wrote:@BPzeBanshee - the incorrect slowdowns in the 360 version of Galuda 2 already draw a lot of complaints from the PCB players, the ports are not a good basis for
Obviously the ports aren't going to be exactly accurate, but they ARE somewhat close approximations of how the PCB worked and would serve as a beginning basis for getting the slowdown right as I stated before, so its more of a case of stepping stones here - you can't dismiss the ports for not being accurate compared to MAME when MAME is even less accurate to begin with, but get it to the level of the port and you've jumped a few stones towards being exact. Now we're at the appromixation stage where we tweak away from that value to try and get it just right.

I don't suppose you'd know the accuracy of the Deathsmiles ports? I know Galuda 2 wasn't perfect but I was under the understanding that the PAL/Japanese editions of the ports for Deathsmiles were pretty close.

Now that the build is out, I shall get to work. I'll post later when I get the time.
According to eoj galuda 2 was 80-85% accurate. http://www.cave-stg.com/?p=800
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by kevenz »

xMetalliCx wrote:well, as I promised, here is another "slowpoke" test build.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/gbmn2b
it have tweakable "blitter delay", so feel free to go at "Slider Controls" and change it to more correct value (and post here that value ;) ).

the default value is "50%" and equal to 15 nanoseconds per pixel, if you increase it to 100% - delay will be *2, and vice versa (I used formula (15 * input_port_read(space->machine(), "BLITRATE") / 50) to calculate perpixel delay)
Thanks a lot, seems even faster than the previous version.
I have a big request, can you post the same version with the hiscores support\no nag screens patch? I would be really happy!! :)

I made a link for the patch here http://www.sendspace.com/file/wxfynn
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by BPzeBanshee »

AntiFritz wrote:According to eoj galuda 2 was 80-85% accurate. http://www.cave-stg.com/?p=800
That was where I'd heard it from previously. Deathsmiles is top of the list for accuracy according to that so I can rest easy in having a good approximation when mucking with Deathsmiles later.

Now, enough talking, to playing! :D

EDIT: I find the number somewhere in the 63-65 range for Deathsmiles based on my plays. I still think there's some spots that aren't quite right but trying to play the Castle stage on this machine results in computer-related slowdown so I can't really check. I have it at 63 at the moment and it slows down at all the places I've seen it in the port.
Last edited by BPzeBanshee on Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by joeboto »

It is to us a sufficient body in which, fairies and it is packed and can group of play.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by BPzeBanshee »

:evil:

If there was a cease and desist letter involved in this I want to see it. That crap I heard about Cave sending nonexistant C&D letters to the MAME team years ago really is giving me a case of de ja vu here.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Drachenherz »

And what exactly does that mean? The driver for the cave sh3 will be taken out of every future mame-built? Or even the existing 143.uX built?
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by mjclark »

Isn't that just an ironic header to a "todo" list? The MAME project has a very clear philosophical framework so I would've thought that once they'd released something it'd stay released or the whole project would be fundamentally compromised.
Sure someone on this thread can confirm though :D
Also...roll on Demul 0.5.7
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by PsikyoFan »

BPzeBanshee wrote:
:evil:

If there was a cease and desist letter involved in this I want to see it. That crap I heard about Cave sending nonexistant C&D letters to the MAME team years ago really is giving me a case of de ja vu here.
Non-existent? They were, and are, very much existent.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by mjclark »

PsikyoFan wrote:
BPzeBanshee wrote:
:evil:

If there was a cease and desist letter involved in this I want to see it. That crap I heard about Cave sending nonexistant C&D letters to the MAME team years ago really is giving me a case of de ja vu here.
Non-existent? They were, and are, very much existent.
Maybe, but the MAME project hasn't ceased and desisted has it?
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Muchi Muchi Spork »

So does that mean you actually thought they sent an email asking them to kill the whole project?
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by BryanM »

It does seem like it could be a little rough on them. How much remaining SH3 stock do they have to clear out with new upcoming remixes and what not?
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by mjclark »

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:So does that mean you actually thought they sent an email asking them to kill the whole project?
Doh! No but all dumped CAVE boards are now emulated in MAME, so whatever CAVE may have asked them to cease and desist from doing, they haven't :D

....but this thread on mameworld forums does suggest that sh3 support is being pulled in response to a request from CAVE...
...I'm confused now- doesn't this mean that MAME's entire ethos of emulating arcade games in order to preserve them for posterity has now been compromised by legal considerations?
There's also a suggestion in that thread that the Demul team would not respond to any similar CAVE requests.
Eagerly awaiting comment from IseeThings and xMetallicx......
Last edited by mjclark on Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Muchi Muchi Spork »

The games are removed and won't be in the next version, but yes there are builds out there that support some of them, pretty crudely, if that is what you meant. I don't think anyone who was planning on buying their new arcade kits would stop buying them either way seeing as though they wouldn't be put in mame either way for over 3 years after release even if they hadn't received a letter (now it will be who knows how many years) and probably won't be the same experience even when they are. But that's so far off now that who knows. I don't think you'll see them in demul for a while either.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by kevenz »

Oh well, I guess I'll stick to mame 143u9 for a while ! :)

Anyway.... I don't want to sound illegal but it should be pretty easy to add the current driver file to mame 144 and up.... just by editing the sources.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by IseeThings »

As stated before they won't be in the next release.

The important part (as far as MAME is concerned) was improving the SH3 core (which now works and has fixed a few SH4 bugs in the process), getting a working core for the sound chip (which is also used elsewhere), the EEPROM / RTC code (which likewise will no doubt turn up elsewhere) and the doubling of the speed of the basic SH3/4 interpreter, which again will no doubt help in other areas. The Flash handling code will also, with a bit of additional work, serve as the basis of the driver for the Nexus3D platform, and when unified with some code in MESS could potentially help with the emulation of platforms such as the GP2X.

In that sense the CaveSH3 served it's purpose, it's helped improve other areas of MAME / MESS, so it's removal really is no big deal.

Much like the previous generation hardware emulation it will be added back eventually, the removal is nothing new, and MAME has always removed support for things on request, and there was always a chance of this request being made.

Overall I think this has been handled well, and everybody wins here.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by KNTain »

damn right.

Thankful for the whole thing.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by mjclark »

IseeThings wrote: ...it will be added back eventually...
That's all I needed to hear eh?
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by BPzeBanshee »

PsikyoFan wrote:
BPzeBanshee wrote: If there was a cease and desist letter involved in this I want to see it. That crap I heard about Cave sending nonexistant C&D letters to the MAME team years ago really is giving me a case of de ja vu here.
Non-existent? They were, and are, very much existent.
Well then how come the letters aren't public? Non-disclosure agreement? People have just gone and treated the letters for removal of stuff as gospel by word-of-mouth. Read this again:
If there was a cease and desist letter involved in this I want to see it.
IseeThings wrote:In that sense the CaveSH3 served it's purpose, it's helped improve other areas of MAME / MESS, so it's removal really is no big deal.
So long as it hasn't left people/developers feeling it was a complete waste of time, then it's all good. People who really want to play the games will use .143u9 or Metallic's second Slowpoke build (and Demul 0.5.7 which presumably isn't going to come out for ages now), meanwhile the base code is useful for other projects.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Barrakketh »

BPzeBanshee wrote:
PsikyoFan wrote:
BPzeBanshee wrote: If there was a cease and desist letter involved in this I want to see it. That crap I heard about Cave sending nonexistant C&D letters to the MAME team years ago really is giving me a case of de ja vu here.
Non-existent? They were, and are, very much existent.
Well then how come the letters aren't public? Non-disclosure agreement?
It's not uncommon for corporations to demand that you not make the contents of a C&D public, regardless of whether or not they have any legal basis for doing so. They usually have enough money and/or full-time attorneys to make things unpleasant for you, and individuals don't have the resources to fight them.

That's how things work in the U.S., anyway.
kevenz wrote:Anyway.... I don't want to sound illegal but it should be pretty easy to add the current driver file to mame 144 and up.... just by editing the sources.
I simply created a new branch and reverted the three commits removing the driver. The tricky thing would be keeping it updated when changes to MAME breaks it. You'd probably be better off just sticking to MetalliC's slowpoke build and use it just for those games.

It's a shame that the repo mirror is a) slow as fuck for the initial clone (when I cloned it a few weeks ago I think it took around 10 minutes with no progress indicator), and b) incomplete (you can't retrieve tags even though you can see the refs on the site).
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by IseeThings »

BPzeBanshee wrote: So long as it hasn't left people/developers feeling it was a complete waste of time, then it's all good. People who really want to play the games will use .143u9 or Metallic's second Slowpoke build (and Demul 0.5.7 which presumably isn't going to come out for ages now), meanwhile the base code is useful for other projects.
Nah, it absolutely wasn't a waste of time, and there is now a solid enough driver ready and waiting for whenever it's decided that it will be added back, with no risk of the knowledge gained being lost, and people will probably just keep hold of the older / unofficial builds if they need to do any serious testing anyway.

In terms of knowledge gained, I'm talking more than just an understanding of that specific board, but access patterns to look for when certain components are involved etc. What does/doesn't work in terms of optimizations which might be applicable for further use in other systems, that kind of thing.

It's easy for some people to forget that at heart MAME is a technical project, it survives on the knowledge contained with it, and the knowledge of the developers gained through exposure to the source, and working on things, as I said, no big deal.

As much as anything it also may have resulted in some curious people updating to the current versions who were otherwise holding back, and seeing some of the other improvements which have been made over the years which they may have missed. (and of course some of the flaws in the current versions, but you can't have everything)

Anyway, the next trick will be slightly less close for comfort if it all comes off, although it's too early to actually promise anything.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by BPzeBanshee »

Barrakketh wrote: It's not uncommon for corporations to demand that you not make the contents of a C&D public, regardless of whether or not they have any legal basis for doing so. They usually have enough money and/or full-time attorneys to make things unpleasant for you, and individuals don't have the resources to fight them.

That's how things work in the U.S., anyway.
Damn, what a bitch.

The first thought that came to me about public legal notices was GeoHot with the PS3 hacking, of which the notices from SCEA were made very public. Having seen what you've said though, he was in Europe somewhere if memory serves so either he was just not giving a shit about the rules or they have separate rules regarding legal notices. I know Australia's not as parallel as it'd like us to believe about copyright/emulation law along with America too, so I guess I'm not seeing the difference. I know of a few people who are knowledgeable about the law so I'll ask them later instead of being grumpy about it here. :P
IseeThings wrote:Anyway, the next trick will be slightly less close for comfort if it all comes off, although it's too early to actually promise anything.
Raiden II in MAME? :lol: :P

I've heard some rumors about the next 'targets of attack' for MAME but that's all over the place so I'll leave that to speculation till actual fact comes out of it. Nonetheless, thanks for talking straight, I get [aggro/emotional] sometimes but overall I do enjoy reading your always-informative posts even if I don't agree with it.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Ex-Cyber »

The Sony/geohot stuff came out through court records, since there was an actual lawsuit and not just an implied threat of one.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Drachenherz »

Actually, Metalica did an excellent job there with the latest edition of slowpoke-mame. It *might* not be perfect from a code-builders perspective as it might not emulate the hardware as perfectly as possible.

But... from a gamers perspective, Metalicas Build does a very, VERY good job, especially in the latest version with the conifgurable blitter-rate...

The Games ARE fun, and for me, at least compared to the accessible ports (Mushi Futari, MF BL, MMP, Pink Sweets, Deathsmiles), they feel right. The slowdown *might* not be arcade-perfect, but the FEELING when playing the games, yay, it sure feels right. It feels so close, I am very comfortable. Actually, so comfortable, that at the moment, I prefer to play Mushi Futari BL on my PC instead on the box. (Because I can play in my personal room instead of playing to the living room where my wife would give me hell, hehe)
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Vamos »

Does this mean we can longer give mettalix blitter values for his next slowpoke build?
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by joeboto »

Vamos wrote:Does this mean we can longer give mettalix blitter values for his next slowpoke build?
just report to him anyway. the values are crucial to get a better accuracy, both in MAME (and demul i think).

here are some of mine, compared to the high level PCB plays. a question though, does PCB change the value per stage/per encounter or even per pattern? at 75%, futariblk intro screen behaves too slow.

Code: Select all

futari blk god mode

stage 4 boss - 60%
stage 5 boss - 75% - 2nd last tail shot 95%

mushisam ultra

stage 1 - 70%
stage 1 boss - 75%
stage 2 - 70
stage 2 boss - 75%
stage 3 - 65%
stage 3 boss - 65 - 70%
stage 4 - 65%
stage 4 boss - 65%
stage 5 - 65%
stage 5 boss - 70%
TLB - 70%
Last edited by joeboto on Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Drachenherz »

joeboto wrote: here are some of mine, compared to the high level PCB plays. a question though, does PCB change the value per stage/per encounter or even per pattern? at 75%, futariblk intro screen behaves too slow.
Hmm, I realized this too, I think the blitter Rate varies in games and also between games...

In Mushifutari Black Label, a blitter Rate of around 63% makes it feel more or less the same as the xbox 360 port, in the first 2 levels, up until the midboss of level 3. For the "pillbug" sequence, a blitter Rate of around 64 to 65 % makes all the difference, whereas at stage 3 boss I have to set the blitter rate at 66 to 67 % to get more or less the same slowdown as the 360 port... Stage 4, beginning just before the midboss, it's back again to around 63 to 65 %... unfortunately, I didn't have the time to get farther than just before the midboss stage 4 on one credit to give more data. Getting the power-max after continueing changes the own shot to max and thus I cannot estimate the "normal" slowdown anymore.

A quick question to metalic: So, is it possible for you to create a build with "custom"-blitter-rates? i.e.: 63 % for stage 1, 64 % for stage 2 beginning, 65 % for stage 2 midboss onwards, 64 % for stage 2 boss, 63% for stage 3 beginning, 65% for stage 3 midboss onward, 67 % for stage 3 boss etc. etc.?
Last edited by Drachenherz on Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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