Japan is really going overboard with this moe thing

[Sumez]

Last time I checked it was a moe thread, but man, do THOSE threads get progressively moronic... The next one will likely cause a forum crash.

My bad, I have no idea what moe is, so I figured it was interchangeable with lolis, at least in the context of this thread.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I enjoyed Last Exile, and I liked the artstyle and animation, sure the main cast looked abit young but it wasnt erotic in the slighted

Same goes for Leputa Castle in the Sky and Steamboy or is that ok since its Gibli?

Edit im not totally sure what moe is, would something like Recettear be considered moe? Or is it more the glasses girl who even if shes not doing anything provocative looks "cute"? Ild atleast say the Last Exile isnt moe

[Obiwanshinobi]

My bad, I have no idea what moe is, so I figured it was interchangeable with lolis, at least in the context of this thread.

Moe.

I enjoyed Last Exile, and I liked the artstyle and animation, sure the main cast looked abit young but it wasnt erotic in the slighted

Cool, you don't need to apologise to anyone. I mean, if Last Exile isn't a "safe" show, I don't know what is.
That being said, I disagree about the alleged lack of eroticism. The designs, the camera angles etc. aren't exploitative whatsoever, but it is a harem show to an extent (RahXephon way). Lavie Head is the imouto archetype (that's Megumi of RahXephon for ya) and so on. Not that I have any problem with them archetypes. I don't refuse to watch a noir hard boiled detective flick just because the protagonist is yet another heavy drinker/gambler/two-timer...

[Observer]

Oh, lol, I stirred it really bad with the Last Exile mention Look, the original was nice and dice for me but what I forgot to point out is that it had some signs of the stuff that was to come. However, I was trying to make fun of the remake/sequel/whatever. THIS ONE.

Well, back to the origin of this thread, I also wonder how much of that moe is comprised of traps... You know the next big thing after years of moe horrors is just putting girly men in maid dresses. Or cross-dressing in general.

[Randorama]

This thread is win.

[Randorama]

Just for fun, and using Icarus' post to clarify some points:

You just don't see stuff like Hokuto no Ken, Ninja Scroll and Record of Lodoss War anymore.

Luckily, because:

While I adored the original Ninja Scroll, I have no love for Hokuto no Ken, which like many anime of the era (Urotsukidoji etc) is the shounen anime variant of the "moe problem" - violence for violence's sake, with one-dimensional characters that can't be empathised with, or plots that are of no interest, save to push more violence on screen.

True, but:

A problem which still persists today in anime like Bleach,

Yes,

Naruto

Yes,

and One Piece

Not all the time, although whole story arcs could be removed without any sensible loss.

Second, harem anime isn't a modern phenomenon, as it existed decades ago in Tenchi Muyo! and earlier, with much the same genre conventions as today.

The modern version usually lacks the porn overtones of early harem titles. cat's eyes was an example.

Ditto moe, with the early mahou shoujo anime like Cardcaptor, and possibly earlier (though my anime history evades me at present).

Studio Pierrot invented the genre with Creamy Mamy

The main issue here is taste: while I can understand people's desire for more gritty, serious styles of anime, the industry of today has noticed that this style doesn't sell, and making money is everything.

As far as I understand, the anime industry is slowly withering away. A good chunk of "fans" (25% or so) are people who end up marrying their pillows. When a trend becomes ubiquitous, it is because a market is going a downward spiral of stagnation. Or: if a show lacks moe, it may not reach the minimum audience to survive.

Note: I do not despise this kind of fan, it is too easy to ridicule the utterly marginalized.

That doesn't mean that gritty, manly anime isn't being made, or isn't as good as it was decades ago.

There has never been good & gritty manly anime. Funny, yes (say, Gurren Lagann). Gritty, probably (insert series here). Good? Please...

Manly men don't watch anime, they fuck the pussy, eat the meat, drink the whisky, hunt the deer, play the football (etc.).

Manly anime is for quivering wimps with man boobs who were bullied at school because they couldn't run and jump, but think they can grow a pair by sitting at home, and doing nothing all day.

And it doesn't mean that modern cutesy anime is inferior, as there are loads of great series being made today.

Percentage of well-written, well-animated, etc. etc. anime has not been measured so far. And, of course, valuable criteria for saying "yes, this is good anime" still have to be written.

As in the anime sucks thread, does anyone have some proof to claim either direction of this argument?

This also reminds me that we need a thread on manliness, for the great lolz.

[Skykid]

There has never been good gritty, manly anime. Manly men don't watch anime, they fuck the pussy, eat the meat, drink the whisky, hunt the deer, play the football (etc.).

Manly anime is for quivering wimps with man boobs who were bullied at school because they couldn't run and jump, but think they can grow a pair by sitting at home, and doing nothing all day.

Nicely composed statement, points for venom. Unfortunately it's very broad and very false, you can't pigeonhole the anime watching populace of the 90's into a nerd masturbatory category. Some people enjoyed it for artstyle, uniqueness, and as adult entertainment outside of the established norm. Hard sci-fi and ultraviolence can still be appealing themes to a film/book lover who doesn't suffer from antisocial complexes.

Hokuto no Ken certainly didn't stop me from learning how to shag and drink.

[Sumez]

It's a proven fact that watching Berserk makes you better at both shagging and drinking.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Oh, lol, I stirred it really bad with the Last Exile mention Look, the original was nice and dice for me but what I forgot to point out is that it had some signs of the stuff that was to come. However, I was trying to make fun of the remake/sequel/whatever. THIS ONE.

That's the way you do it. If I wanted to read somebody's wankposts, I'd read shmupsforum more thoroughly.
Actually I like the looks of that new Last Exile series (don't expect it to be as good as the original, but the voice acting and animations bode well). They brought back young master Dio, which was something of a necessity, in a way.
Yes, they cranked up the service, but it's still very mild in comparison to some shows from the last century's eighties and nineties I could name (the uncut Dragon Ball being one of them).

[Cuilan]

It's a proven fact that watching Berserk makes you better at both shagging and drinking.

What's funny is that Berserk's creator is a huge fan of loli/moe.

[Ruldra]

AFAIK he wasn't when he started making Berserk. And the series went into limbo after he started obsessing over Idolm@ster.

[Icarus]

There has never been good gritty, manly anime. Manly men don't watch anime, they fuck the pussy, eat the meat, drink the whisky, hunt the deer, play the football (etc.).

Manly anime is for quivering wimps with man boobs who were bullied at school because they couldn't run and jump, but think they can grow a pair by sitting at home, and doing nothing all day.

Nicely composed statement, points for venom. Unfortunately it's very broad and very false, you can't pigeonhole the anime watching populace of the 90's into a nerd masturbatory category. Some people enjoyed it for artstyle, uniqueness, and as adult entertainment outside of the established norm. Hard sci-fi and ultraviolence can still be appealing themes to a film/book lover who doesn't suffer from antisocial complexes.

Rando's point is that at the end of the day, you're watching a cartoon. There's nothing "manly" about watching stuff that technically usually targeted at kids, and there's nothing "manly" about arguing and bitching about the lack of "manly" cartoons on a forum that's centered around a niche gaming genre that's on life support, of all things. You should be spending your time following more "manly" pursuits, rather than arguing on an internet forum over how girly the latest cartoon series fresh out of Japan is.

And don't bother bringing up demographics, people, I'm well aware that some cartoon series are targeted towards older guys. Nevertheless, there are plenty of older pre-Millenium cartoons available for older guys to enjoy, and the occasional serious anime (like Redline and Fate Zero) coming out now.

[Observer]

Ok, time to watch cartoons, lads. You just can't hate cartoons! End of the game here.

You all want manly? I'll give'ya manly!

http://artofmanliness.com/

There.

(while it might seem ridiculous, and it indeed has some fair share of ridiculous and loltastic stuff, now and then they put some nice articles)

[Icarus]

Cartoons rule. I still watch Ren and Stimpy, and Two Stupid Dogs. :p

[Cuilan]

The last good cartoons were Batman Beyond and Freakazoid.

AFAIK he wasn't when he started making Berserk. And the series went into limbo after he started obsessing over Idolm@ster.

It would have been difficult for anyone to be into moe back when Berserk first started, since the genre didn't really exist back then.

[Sumez]

Stop ruining nice things!

[GaijinPunch]

Nicely composed statement, points for venom. Unfortunately it's very broad and very false, you can't pigeonhole the anime watching populace of the 90's into a nerd masturbatory category.

Can, and did.


Back to semi on-topic. I've started watching the original Gatchaman series (1972 FTW). Not manly, but good campy fun. You just can't beat bell bottoms.

[Randorama]

Nicely composed statement, points for venom. Unfortunately it's very broad and very false, you can't pigeonhole the anime watching populace of the 90's into a nerd masturbatory category.

Of course it is, and it was also self-ironic, if you remember a bit my tastes, no? Even if my favourite remains Berserk, ultra-violence speaking.

Hard sci-fi [zip! zip!] can still be appealing them es to a film/book lover who doesn't suffer from antisocial complexes.

...and that's what I said ad nauseam in other posts, too.

and ultraviolence, Hokuto no Ken certainly didn't stop me from learning how to shag and drink.

Hokuto no Ken and Saint Seiya were the '80s Bleach. If I need to be nostalgic about ultra-violence of the '80s, I'd even choose Tiger Mask, which was corny as hell.

Btw, Icarus got it right, of course.

All the talks about manlyness make me cringe, as I've done several things which pass as actually manly, in the "real world". Everybody's good at shagging and drinking, it does not take any skills. Who's good at boar-hunting? Harvesting? Playing rugby with stitches? Smoke cigars and drink rum? Has a chest wider than 90 cms? A five-o'clock shadow at noon? Can stick to the fucking given word all the time? Watch Harlock while eating Beef Jerky?

Ah, manlyness.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Stop ruining nice things!

Oh hey, did you know he also happened to be the designer for one of them Vocaloids?

At least he hasn't completely lost his creative stint...

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Cool, you don't need to apologise to anyone. I mean, if Last Exile isn't a "safe" show, I don't know what is.
That being said, I disagree about the alleged lack of eroticism. The designs, the camera angles etc. aren't exploitative whatsoever, but it is a harem show to an extent (RahXephon way). Lavie Head is the imouto archetype (that's Megumi of RahXephon for ya) and so on. Not that I have any problem with them archetypes. I don't refuse to watch a noir hard boiled detective flick just because the protagonist is yet another heavy drinker/gambler/two-timer...

It was a while back when I watched the original Last Exile anime so I cant remember the harem parts. Its probably because im not interested in those aspects. In fact ive gotten used to ignoring the shittier aspects of anime aslong as its not over egged with pantyshots and ero, if I like other aspects of the show. Thats why I quite liked the comedy harem Inukami for its slapstick. Saying that I probably couldnt watch similar shows as the moe / romance to comedy % is higher and the jokes / comedy style is stale. I need to return to Gintama and see if it still makes me chuckle.

My bad, I have no idea what moe is, so I figured it was interchangeable with lolis, at least in the context of this thread.

Moe.

I dont mind Vanille from FF13 but that character is so annoying even I just wanna punch it

Oh, lol, I stirred it really bad with the Last Exile mention Look, the original was nice and dice for me but what I forgot to point out is that it had some signs of the stuff that was to come. However, I was trying to make fun of the remake/sequel/whatever. THIS ONE.

Oh a new LE! watches Op vid, sees the 3 naked lolis ......sigh.....nevermind

EDIT btw saying I liked a comedy harem makes me feel like I might as well have proclaimed "I have a fuck pillow with a harem of 365 pillow cases and assorted fleshlights"

[Skykid]

There has never been good gritty, manly anime. Manly men don't watch anime, they fuck the pussy, eat the meat, drink the whisky, hunt the deer, play the football (etc.).

Manly anime is for quivering wimps with man boobs who were bullied at school because they couldn't run and jump, but think they can grow a pair by sitting at home, and doing nothing all day.

Nicely composed statement, points for venom. Unfortunately it's very broad and very false, you can't pigeonhole the anime watching populace of the 90's into a nerd masturbatory category. Some people enjoyed it for artstyle, uniqueness, and as adult entertainment outside of the established norm. Hard sci-fi and ultraviolence can still be appealing themes to a film/book lover who doesn't suffer from antisocial complexes.

Rando's point is that at the end of the day, you're watching a cartoon. There's nothing "manly" about watching stuff that technically usually targeted at kids, and there's nothing "manly" about arguing and bitching about the lack of "manly" cartoons on a forum that's centered around a niche gaming genre that's on life support, of all things. You should be spending your time following more "manly" pursuits, rather than arguing on an internet forum over how girly the latest cartoon series fresh out of Japan is.

And don't bother bringing up demographics, people, I'm well aware that some cartoon series are targeted towards older guys. Nevertheless, there are plenty of older pre-Millenium cartoons available for older guys to enjoy, and the occasional serious anime (like Redline and Fate Zero) coming out now.

Hmm, interesting pov.
I certainly didn't pick that up from Rando's post.

I never really made the distinction that anything animated was automatically for children, probably because I got into anime when I was still technically a kid. Therefore the word 'cartoon' doesn't have any significance as only pertaining (or meant to pertain) to a limited younger demographic.

Implying that folk are attempting to butch up by watching violent anime is something I totally disagree with. The OTT ultraviolence that characterised a lot of the imported anime of the 90's appealed to me, personally, because it was just that: OTT and amusingly so. It was hardly prize winning material and I always placed the Honneamise's, Akira's and Miyazaki's on a rightful, loftier pedestal than the likes of Ninja Scroll or Hokuto no Ken: but there's most certainly a place for everything.

Moe does nothing for me personally. The general themes and regurgitated memes that surround it just don't appeal. Not finding it stimulating doesn't make me more or less manly, I just find my imagination is engaged to a greater degree by either hard sci-fi or no brainer action adventure (of good quality.)

Either way, as this is probably the ninth thread where folk have managed to divert the topic into a "why anime today is shit" debate would suggest that there must be something wrong.

We're all jus' gettin' old.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

"Moe does nothing for me personally. The general themes and regurgitated memes that surround it just don't appeal. Not finding it stimulating doesn't make me more or less manly, I just find my imagination is engaged to a greater degree by either hard sci-fi or no brainer action adventure (of good quality.)

Im almost with you there, I watched a fuck ton of different amine when I first discovered internet amine around 5 years back, but it didnt take long before much of it felt stale and cliched. I do prefer the old cyberpunk artstyle but im fine with newer and simpler styles if the story is good eg Code Geass.

EDIT the main reason I got into 90s Manga Video back in the day was that its was wacky and had original plotlines so I had no idea how it would all turn out. I find the usual western happy ending plotlines so mind numbing. I think this is lacking in many modern anime, or maybe its because ive grown used to the genre, im unsure


Anyway whats with all those brother and sister eros? WTF is all that about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krxo9gYEspE

[Icarus]

I never really made the distinction that anything animated was automatically for children, probably because I got into anime when I was still technically a kid. Therefore the word 'cartoon' doesn't have any significance as only pertaining (or meant to pertain) to a limited younger demographic.

I've been interested in animation since I was very young, but I won't ever and will never ever look at anime as anything other than youth-targeted entertainment. No matter how it's dressed, it's primarily targeted at young to late teens.

Implying that folk are attempting to butch up by watching violent anime is something I totally disagree with. The OTT ultraviolence that characterised a lot of the imported anime of the 90's appealed to me, personally, because it was just that: OTT and amusingly so. It was hardly prize winning material and I always placed the Honneamise's, Akira's and Miyazaki's on a rightful, loftier pedestal than the likes of Ninja Scroll or Hokuto no Ken: but there's most certainly a place for everything.

Really? The majority of comments decrying anime as shit seems to imply otherwise.

Also, see above comment. The random splatter and gore probably appealed to your young senses because it is different to what was available then, and all teens/young adults love strange and unusual things. And also, the amount of stuff you could get your hands on wasn't really great in number, so you took what you could get. If the amount of readily-available anime available then were anywhere near the number available now, I'd probably still not be as interested in that type of anime, because I prefer a varied combination of plot and characters, and not plain and simple wall-to-wall exploding heads.

Moe does nothing for me personally. The general themes and regurgitated memes that surround it just don't appeal. Not finding it stimulating doesn't make me more or less manly, I just find my imagination is engaged to a greater degree by either hard sci-fi or no brainer action adventure (of good quality.)

And hard sci-fi/no-brainer action adventure doesn't have it's own fair share of general themes and regurgitated memes? Every sub-genre has its tropes, the ones used in moe are just more easily identifiable.
Plot isn't everything in this form of entertainment - some of the series I've enjoyed and regularly come back to have been character driven stuff like Aria (which is my all-time favorite), Lucky Star, K-On!, School Rumble, and Shinryaku! Ika Musume (and the Yotsubato! manga), not for their vast, overarching plot, but for the interaction between likeable characters. While I occasionally enjoy a good plot and action sequences (Gurren Lagann being the last action series I really got into, and Kara no Kyoukai being a big favorite), getting a good chuckle out of an episode after a long and irritating day at work appeals more to my tastes.

We're all jus' gettin' old.

"Young at heart." ^_-
(And approaching midlife crisis…)

[GaijinPunch]

I never really made the distinction that anything animated was automatically for children, probably because I got into anime when I was still technically a kid. Therefore the word 'cartoon' doesn't have any significance as only pertaining (or meant to pertain) to a limited younger demographic.

When I was "into" anime (and I was pretty deep) the big argument was "it's not for kids", which was mainly adopted since the shows were rather violent for afternoon TV. That was of course, totally wrong, and underscores the misunderstanding of cultural differences at the time. Watching Gatchaman now which was clearly aimed at 10 year olds (but probably enjoyed up through high school), it is grittier and meaner than any crap on TV now. There's no blood, but they kick the shit out of just about anything, and even shoot people.

That can also just be a sign of the times, and show that we're pussifying our youth. I mean, look at 1977 Star Wars compared to the prequels. Han Shot First is a prime example. I'm not saying I'm all for violence, but the flip side is all this little girl breaking chopsticks horse shit. I think my gay friend was right about Japanese boys.

If that stuff floats your boat, more power to ya, but I find it rather annoying to say the least. And, what I can say about the form of media as a whole: the more Japanese I understood, the less appealing it became. You could also say that the style changed as I learned Japanese as well.

[Skykid]

"Young at heart." ^_-
(And approaching midlife crisis…)

Careful there, I'm feeling one brewing.

You got my number on the late teens thing and an appreciation for visceral throwaway entertainment. But one thing I never lost an affection for is something done well, no matter the genre. If you show me a moe show that will move me somehow because of its sheer quality, I'd be for it, no probs. I've proven I'm willing to take on serious suggestions and give them the once over even with limited disposable time. Unfortunately 90% of what I'm directed toward turns out to be average to poor, and I don't consider the discord to be entirely down to taste.

For instance, you liked The Girl Who Leapt Through Time, I thought it was worthless. Not cos of the lighthearted theme - I can watch The Cat Returns and dig it (not exactly 'adult') - but because I genuinely didn't think it was up to much as a piece of work.

I can revisit certain 90's anime purely out of fondness, same way I can revisit certain 80's movies. But some stuff I revisit cos it's just so damn good, and always will be.

That can also just be a sign of the times, and show that we're pussifying our youth. I mean, look at 1977 Star Wars compared to the prequels. Han Shot First is a prime example. I'm not saying I'm all for violence, but the flip side is all this little girl breaking chopsticks horse shit. I think my gay friend was right about Japanese boys.

Do tell?

As for the rest of the quote, this is exactly how I feel too. I wouldn't point the finger firmly at anime either, but at entertainment industries generally. I mean look at Twilight ffs - LOOK AT IT!

[TrevHead (TVR)]

You guys have a point about much of anime been aimed at kids, kinda like how Duke Nukem Forever is 18 rated but its obviously aimed at younger teens.

I remember listening to a podcast called the Outsiders which talked about how the Japanese are expected to drop all their hobbies when they reach adulthood. And adult gamers and anime fans stigmatised by society. It kinda explains why the Otaku is so extreme from the norm and the reason why highschool settings are so popular with adults longing for bygone days

[Ganelon]

Hokuto no Ken doesn't represent some unnatural form of ultra-violence. It was during the era of HNK's birth where psychological tests (such as the Stanford and Milgram experiments) about a person's willingness to harm his fellow human beings were still fresh. And of course the 2nd phase of the Cold War was starting up so the depicted doomsday scenario in 1999 was an indicator of cynicism towards the future.

It was, and IMO still is, very easy to conceive of a situation that were a post-apocalyptic situation to arise, we'd be back to living in an era of warlords consolidating power, bullying weaker groups and destroying the non-compliant. HNK has no reserve about showing how people would act. It's because of all these other, neutered cartoons that most viewers are accustomed to expect wanton death to be unrealistic. But in a Lord of the Flies scenario, do you expect everyone to get along, or do you expect the most ambitious to start seizing power for themselves?

HNK even focuses predominantly on male leads, which I think is right on the mark about how much each gender will play a part in this might-makes-right environment. The only unrealistic part is the martial arts aspect, which is used to carry forward the hope of the story, which was typical of late 70s/early 80s melodrama, where fighting was the simplest way to address a conflict—much as how battles in RPGs are essential but not necessarily driving points (interesting how HNK received a few RPG video game installments). I don't agree that crazy violence was ever the main focus; HNK normally doesn't even depict the gory detail in character deaths (a la Ninja Scroll).

Also, the nuance of HNK's character design doesn't always come from words. If you were to just pay attention to dialogue, it's not often clear what the taciturn Kenshiro is thinking, but the subtle art style clearly gives you an understanding of the emotions lurking inside. The expressions are sometimes quite explicit too with (male) characters crying, certainly not the pure display of masculinity that the series is cracked up to be.

I don't feel that HNK is at all similar to Urotsukidoji, the latter of which was intended as porn with a story. It's like comparing a mature but respectable drama about mafia violence to a sexploitation film about torture, where the 2 shows are viewed for vastly different reasons. If HNK were drawn in moe form, the series would still present an interesting story and engaging action, but it would be very hard to take seriously. That would be about as ridiculous as making an SD Grave of the Fireflies or a moe film about World War II atrocities. Of course, Lin is arguably already in moe form and that art style actually helps her fragile character role stand out; you could say Tetsuo Hara knew how to selectively incorporate styles instead of making every female character look moe.

Anyway, for me, even non-moe isn't enough to attract me back to anime at this point. There's something about the softness of hand-drawn cel animation that doesn't seem to manifest in current computer-based animation. I've been mentioning this quirk for a decade now and believe that the added special effects and detail used nowadays are too complex for my tastes. That, or I've outgrown anime and can only fondly watch titles that resonated with me in the past.

[Observer]

...or a moe film about World War II atrocities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IziQJCIVTj4

While not a film, it's a series. Added horror value with the english dub.

Anyway, for me, even non-moe isn't enough to attract me back to anime at this point. There's something about the softness of hand-drawn cel animation that doesn't seem to manifest in current computer-based animation. I've been mentioning this quirk for a decade now and believe that the added special effects and detail used nowadays are too complex for my tastes. That, or I've outgrown anime and can only fondly watch titles that resonated with me in the past.

That's why I'm all over Redline. 7 years hand-drawing the shit out of everything... Damn. But, sadly, how much time will pass until the next group of crazy people provide something like that again? By then, I fear it'll be too late. I think it already is too late and it's been for a while.

How is that english expression? The one about not crying over the spilt milk? Yeah, something like that. About not worth lamenting for something that's already pretty screwed up or destroyed.

This thread needs moar KILLAH BEATZ KILLAH BEATZ, gangsta robots and Redl-UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ (dat beat) to cheer people up. Cheer up, everyone! Seriously, buy that OST, it'll be your permanent companion on the road.

I also want to know what GaijinPunch's friend said about japanese boys. Perhaps it can be tied with the moe-suplements of the OP.

[rancor]

I also want to know what GaijinPunch's friend said about japanese boys.

From direct observation it has to be the fact that 90% of Japanese boys are already 90% gay.






This is an effiminate society to the extreme. I don't even notice anymore the number of boys looking at themselves in the reflection of the windows of the train with pouty lips doing their hair.





edit: spaces added.

[Randorama]

From direct observation it has to be the fact that 90% of Japanese boys are already 90% gay. This is an effiminate society to the extreme. I don't even notice anymore the number of boys looking at themselves in the reflection of the windows of the train with pouty lips doing their hair.

Nothing wrong with being gay, in my book.

I think that a man has to look after himself, dress well, etc. Manly men look elegant with t-shirt and jeans, and properly clean too. The manly man does not look like Michael Moore, but more like John Steed or Vittorio Gassman.

The disturbing aspect about this bishounen attitude is that it all revolves around crappy dress styles (lol, "asian fashion"), and ridicolous, garish haircuts. In Sydney, among asian-descent australian kids, shoulder pads are all the rage.

This is all stuff that, to the lazy, represents a simple, money-based way to "look good", rather than sit down, develop a sense of fashion, go the gym, learn manners, develop a personality, etc. The effeminate/bishonen style is just a way for kids to hide their vapidity. It's just that, until 15 years ago or so, only girls could look vapid and generic-looking, and now men have this "right", too. Welcome to 2011.