Does anyone find chaining fun?

[Bananamatic]

My favorite part about Darius Gaiden is the bosses. However, I can't be fucked fighting them for anymore than 10 seconds so I'm throwing on autofire.

Fatty Glutton and Great Thing still last an ungodly amount of time without whites

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Great Thing obviously takes an ungodly amount of time to kill because you don't want your cow to die before you're finished milking it. Fatty Glutton goes down way faster than the other bosses on the same level he is. For some reason, all 1st generation battleships are like this.

[Sumez]

Chaining is not mandatory, its for advanced players as a challenge to further increase their score. A beginner or mediocre player trying to play at an advanced level is sure to hate chaining. Advanced players on the other hand don't hate chaining, but find it tedious in making incremental score increases.

Sure, but you can make the same differentiation with any shmup with a scoring system. There's always the option to chase score or just play for survival, it's just DDP style chaining is pretty obtuse compared to most stuff (and most of Cave's stuff).

I like Dave K's point. Chaining will easily alienate a lot of people who don't dedicate themselves to the game 100%, and it's hard to argue against it, because this is a genre that generally requires people to do that. Dedication is everything in a shmup, and this is also why it feels so rewarding when you're getting good at a shoot'em up.
As a part of the lower end of the spectrum on this forum, when it comes to mastering the games, my opinion hardly matters on this account. I mean, what do I know about the perks of chaining in DDP, when I'm not even able to 1CC the game?

But the thing is, when I'm getting into a shoot'em up, I like to mix things up. That is what I love about scoring systems like Progear, Futari Maniac, EspGaluda and Ketsui - After a bunch of sessions focusing entirely on trying to survive as long as possible, I like to try improving my scores instead, as these are all games that allow me make good use of the scoring system, even though I'm not close to fully mastering the game. The depth of the scoring systems in these games mean a better player will always score higher without it all being a question of hit-or-miss.
In DDP, if you're not able to no-miss a stage, there's no reason to even begin trying to chain it. As most other people stated, there's one way of doing a DDP stage correctly. Dan Hibiki's post on page 1 takes EspGaluda and tries to argue that it's the same, because in order to absolutely maximize your score, you have to know exactly when to activate Kakusei for the maximum possible score, etc. But what I like about exactly this game is that you can play one part of the stage perfectly, and then proceed to use Kakusei to make it safely part another part of the stage that would otherwise give you trouble, possibly missing a scoring opportunity.

People who have amazing shooter skills might argue that this is completely pointless, because the games only shine when you're getting closer to pulling off a perfect run, and all of your training should be about giving it 100%, and not cheap out. And I won't say they're wrong, but the scoring systems I like the best are all about risk vs. reward. Do you want to push yourself and take a risk in order to score huge points, or will you take the safe route, ensuring your survival and allowing you to take a risk later in the game where the reward is bigger.

I heard DFK does this, causing hardcore DDP fans to feel alienated, arguing that they've softened the chaining system? I guess I'll see for myself once the European release is out.

[AeroCityMayor]

I've been chaining in Strikers 1999 but very much like my sex life now that I'm over 40, I just can't keep it up!



Cheers,

Ralph.

[Taylor]

I heard DFK does this, causing hardcore DDP fans to feel alienated, arguing that they've softened the chaining system? I guess I'll see for myself once the European release is out.

So long as you use shot on popcorn and laser on larger enemies the chaining in DFK is pretty much automatic except a few key points that you commit to memory. There are more chaining tricks in the first half of DOJ stage 1 than in the whole of DFK. The bee collectables are mainly used for hyper juice and don't multiply with your counter so you can collect them whenever. And if you don’t have a full hyper bar and your chain drops you won’t instantly lose all scoring potential for that stage and get salty – your counter just ticks down.

However because your hit count is also a multiplier when you have full hyper, you do have to do a lot of tricks to boost it up to high levels early in the stage, and afterwards if you drop your chain it’s gone. You can still panic hyper at this point, but you could be earning as little as a seventh of what you would get otherwise (though that’s still better than getting hit and losing everything).

Honestly, from a mixture of things, DFK feels more like a Mushi game than DDP.

[DEL]

kernow wrote;

It's fun when you nail a section and get it right more often than not, but I find it incredibly rigid and boring.

Rigid & boring. Rigid yes, boring - well not for people who like it I guess.
I don't like it.
Sumez wrote;

I like Dave K's point. Chaining will easily alienate a lot of people who don't dedicate themselves to the game 100%, and it's hard to argue against it, because this is a genre that generally requires people to do that. Dedication is everything in a shmup, and this is also why it feels so rewarding when you're getting good at a shoot'em up.

'Dedication 100% to a shoot'em up' shouldn't necessarily mean following the exact route and button presses of someone else. Chaining requires this.
Chaining is robotic and rigid and does not appeal to me.
No doubt it is born of the Japanese ethos of perfection of movement and their affinity for things like line-dancing, which is chain dancing .
I prefer a bit of freedom here and there.

[Erppo]

I heard DFK does this, causing hardcore DDP fans to feel alienated, arguing that they've softened the chaining system? I guess I'll see for myself once the European release is out.

I seem to remember that on the contrary, most of the whiners when the port came out were rather shocked that a DDP game had strict chaining in it.

One must love every single element of a game to be able to say they like that game, right?

Well if one can't find 25 games where they like more than half of the gameplay, I guess it's understandable to vote those.

[burgerkingdiamond]

I just started playing DOJ. I suck at DDP chaining so I'm trying to ignore it. Is it even conceivable to 1CC it without playing for score? Can you get to at least the first extend without chaining?

Also, I just got Mushihimesama. I don't even know where to begin with this games autofire rate scoring shenanigans. So is ignoring scoring and just going for a 1cc with just a single extend plausible (i've cleared Futari once, but that was with both score extends plus the extra life on LV 5.)

[cools]

Enemy chaining, no. Most other forms of chaining are alright. Medal, graze, item... Actually, bell chaining is horrible too now that I think of it.

Agree.

I love the little addition in the Yagawa medalling games whereby the item appearance counter carries between credits, so you are never 100% sure what an enemy will drop and the chaining becomes highly reactive. There may be a best way through a level but the game forces you to take different routes each time. Rank carrying between credits also adds to the variety.

[Kollision]

Chaining is robotic and rigid and does not appeal to me.

Dude, I tried to avoid the cliché but....

GO PLAY MARS MATRIX



freedom "here and there" is what makes Mars Matrix such a genius shooter, believe me

[Skykid]

You should easily be getting 1200+ hits on stage 2's second half if you stock up 5 hypers for it. Very useful for getting those extends. I'll chain stage 1, and I'll try to do Stage 2 first half as well, but I've never chained it until the chain break at the midboss. I know it's possible to chain into the midboss too, but I've never done it.

Busting out 5x hypers on stage 2's gauntlet is great fun, but the rankometer dial starts going a little haywire after that.

I have chained through the 2nd mid-boss quite a few times now. Collecting the power up breaks your laser for a milisecond which is enough to kill your chain if you're placed at the bottom of the screen. After watching vids I found you need to collect it while point blanking the midboss for that not to happen. Ikeda, u mad.

Sometimes mastering the scoring system really IS required.

Just try and beat Battle Garegga on one credit, playing for survival. Go ahead, we'll wait.

Lol, yeah, that ain't gonna to happen. BG is an extreme example tho, it requires you to moderate lots of crazy variables.

Garegga aside, I always find 1cc'ing a shmup depends on scoring to some degree because you need those extends, and scoring mechanics are often intrinsically tied into surviving (Progear is a good example.)

However:

I just started playing DOJ. I suck at DDP chaining so I'm trying to ignore it. Is it even conceivable to 1CC it without playing for score? Can you get to at least the first extend without chaining?

Funnily enough, it lends itself quite well to pure survival, same as DDP. On runs when I would reach Hachi ages back (without having much of a handle on chaining at all) I would get the first extend on the stg2 gauntlet, the hidden extend on stage 4, and the 2nd extend around the end of stage 4/beginning of 5.
Considering that's just learning patterns, they're quite nicely spaced out.

With chaining I often have all the point based extends before the stage 2 boss, such is its importance to score.

[Erppo]

I just started playing DOJ. I suck at DDP chaining so I'm trying to ignore it. Is it even conceivable to 1CC it without playing for score? Can you get to at least the first extend without chaining?

Also, I just got Mushihimesama. I don't even know where to begin with this games autofire rate scoring shenanigans. So is ignoring scoring and just going for a 1cc with just a single extend plausible (i've cleared Futari once, but that was with both score extends plus the extra life on LV 5.)

You will most likely get the 50M extend in DOJBL before the stage 5 boss (and you will probably need at least one extra life to beat it too) without really trying to chain. There are still some key points that are really easy to chain and are worth saving some hypers for. Most notable is the end section of stage 2 and using 5 hypers there should pretty much guarantee you the second extend before the end of the loop. Ignore what people say about rank and avoiding hypering. The rank in the first loop will never get very bad unless you no-miss up to the last stage since dying once resets it pretty much completely.

I don't understand the scoring in Mushi Maniac either, but same there, I've always gotten both extends by the last stage.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Errpo/Skykid

thanks fellas.

[Skykid]

Also, I just got Mushihimesama. I don't even know where to begin with this games autofire rate scoring shenanigans. So is ignoring scoring and just going for a 1cc with just a single extend plausible (i've cleared Futari once, but that was with both score extends plus the extra life on LV 5.)

If you play Mushi original you don't need to worry about the autofire/shot tapping scoring (which is actually kinda fun when you have an idea of what you're doing - you really need to be playing on a stick tho.)

In Original you'll probably get the first extend early in stage 3, then collect the hidden extend at the end of the same stage. I really can't remember where the second point based extend appears, but getting it earlier depends on exploiting a few scoring tricks and maximising your gem collecting (the pods on stage 2 reap a lot when closed - some are v/risky to hover over tho.) Oh, and try to no miss as much as pos for the end of stage bonus.
As Errpo said, you'd have to be very unlucky to not get both on a normal survival run, so don't worry. Mushi original is easy to crack btw, especially if you cleared Futari.

For Maniac upward it's a whole new bag.

[third_strike]

I don't understand why people keep voting DDP and DOJ as the best shups ever when they don't even like them.

Because Skykid convinced they at to do this.

[Despatche]

Hm, let's try this one again.

Anything involving "skill" will eventually come down to "one true path until another path is found". This isn't opinion, this is the entire point; "skill" is "rigidity". Choice may come in when there are multiple ways to do the exact same thing, and then you also have to deal with "luck" ("risk vs reward" is solely related to "luck" or "lack of skill").

Again, Donpachi is just a bit more honest about what is required; you can still draw up an illusion of choice in it, just like with your Espgaludas and Progears over there. With this in mind, it's pretty easy to just clear the first loop on Daioujou however you want, especially a no-miss. A game shouldn't "require" extends... Daioujou doesn't. I can't wait until a complete no-miss of the game is done, because I know it's going to happen soon.

[kernow]

I don't understand why people keep voting DDP and DOJ as the best shups ever when they don't even like them.

It's simple, people are forcing themselves to like it.

[Paradigm]

Why would people need to force themselves to like DDP or DOJ?

They're popular because they're enjoyable games to play for survival and the majority of this forum play primarily for the 1CC rather than high score. There's nothing more to it than that.

[Gus]

I still have yet to reach the 2nd extend in DOJ.

[third_strike]

I still have yet to reach the 2nd extend in DOJ.

Tips:
- Get a lot of hypers before stage 's 2 popcorn indoor.
- Active the hypers.
- Hold C.

This can not be so hard.

[Sumez]

Again, Donpachi is just a bit more honest about what is required; you can still draw up an illusion of choice in it, just like with your Espgaludas and Progears over there. With this in mind, it's pretty easy to just clear the first loop on Daioujou however you want, especially a no-miss. A game shouldn't "require" extends... Daioujou doesn't. I can't wait until a complete no-miss of the game is done, because I know it's going to happen soon.

This is EXACTLY what I was trying to address in my post further back - except you represent the opposite side of the argument.

This is the situation where you do not accept any "skill" beyond 100%. I guess that makes DDP a game for experts - roughly spoken, you do either 0% or 100% (this isn't entirely true, but you get the idea). You can play ProGear and still enjoy the scoring system while only doing as low as 20% of what would be considered a perfect run.
Sure, you aren't getting the most out of the game, and you're definitely not playing competitively. But ProGear and EspGaluda still have the "perfect run", which isn't much different from one in DDP, so I don't see what is wrong with those games creating an "illusion of choice" (ie. the possibility to perform less than perfect, but better than terrible)

EspGaluda 2 is a perfect example of a scoring system that is so deep that there's an entire world of difference between a half-assed run and a perfect one, and a direct opposite of DDP's either-or.
Of course it's also an extremely convoluted system that's likely to alienate as many people as DDP and Guwange do, if not more, but getting closer to the perfect run in Esp2 should be at least as rewarding as getting that perfect chain in DDP.

[Paradigm]

You can play ProGear and still enjoy the scoring system while only doing as low as 20% of what would be considered a perfect run.

And you can't do this in DDP, why exactly?

The game doesn't force you to restart every time you drop your chain.

[Taylor]

You cannot do little abstract chains in DOJ the same way you can do localised gemming in Progear. You will earn nil pwa.

Though most of your points in Progear are from your accumulative game-long counter, meaning every scoring opportunity you miss has a massive long term effect.

Cave.

[Paradigm]

CAVE and their 'you won't score well if you make scoring mistakes' shenanigans, eh?

[Skykid]

I don't understand why people keep voting DDP and DOJ as the best shups ever when they don't even like them.

Because Skykid convinced they at to do this.

It's true, I do at to do.

[Sumez]

Though most of your points in Progear are from your accumulative game-long counter, meaning every scoring opportunity you miss has a massive long term effect.

CAVE and their 'you won't score well if you make scoring mistakes' shenanigans, eh?

Making a mistake in Progear doesn't harm your counter though, you just miss an opportunity to feed it. Over an entire run, it will be your average skill that counts, not single mistakes, like ruining a DDP chain.

[Despatche]

This is the situation where you do not accept any "skill" beyond 100%. I guess that makes DDP a game for experts - roughly spoken, you do either 0% or 100% (this isn't entirely true, but you get the idea). You can play ProGear and still enjoy the scoring system while only doing as low as 20% of what would be considered a perfect run.
Sure, you aren't getting the most out of the game, and you're definitely not playing competitively. But ProGear and EspGaluda still have the "perfect run", which isn't much different from one in DDP, so I don't see what is wrong with those games creating an "illusion of choice" (ie. the possibility to perform less than perfect, but better than terrible)

EspGaluda 2 is a perfect example of a scoring system that is so deep that there's an entire world of difference between a half-assed run and a perfect one, and a direct opposite of DDP's either-or.
Of course it's also an extremely convoluted system that's likely to alienate as many people as DDP and Guwange do, if not more, but getting closer to the perfect run in Esp2 should be at least as rewarding as getting that perfect chain in DDP.

Wow, this is great, I hope everyone else understands this. That illusion of choice is part of what draws people in, even if there is no "true difference". Of course, we should always have that Donpachi, just like we should always have that Deathsmiles. However, I'd like to point out that what defines a "game for experts" is not what the game says, but what the game does. You'd need to sit down and compare the "potential" of various scoring systems to figure that out though.

Aside from that, there's no real "reason" to accept "skill" less than 100% unless you just don't feel like doing it. Yes, this isn't about "enjoying the scoring system" so much as it's about "doing a good job", but I bring this up because it leads into the former anyway, because people keep worrying about "being good at the game" without understanding what that really means.

[ClessxAlghazanth]

Does anyone find chaining fun?

Umm...no . I played all Donpachis all the time "almost" completely ignoring the scoring system. The interval between the "hits" is so short , I don't remember myself chaining over 250 in Dodonpachi , even I have been playing the game for 2 years and can constantly reach final boss on 1cc (no need to say score is horrible). I can only get some decent chains in Doj , but it's only the 'hyper effect' , not my skill. It needs too much memorization , or high skill which I don't have I think ; anyway , it doesn't work for me

I love the games and play occassionally , but I always think if they had a different scoring (take PatriotDark for example) I think I'd love them much more

[Paradigm]

Great post.

Now tell me... "what" the "fuck" have I just "read"?

[Sumez]

Aside from that, there's no real "reason" to accept "skill" less than 100% unless you just don't feel like doing it. Yes, this isn't about "enjoying the scoring system" so much as it's about "doing a good job", but I bring this up because it leads into the former anyway, because people keep worrying about "being good at the game" without understanding what that really means.

Different strokes. I can have fun with a game I don't own the world record in.