Is it worth upgrading to Akira BluRay?

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:01 am

Akira is my favorite animated movie ever, and I have the nice DVD that Pioneer released a ways back(with the boxed tin).

Is the Blu Ray much better?

Skykid · Post by **Skykid** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:04 am

evil_ash_xero wrote:Akira is my favorite animated movie ever, and I have the nice DVD that Pioneer released a ways back(with the boxed tin).

Is the Blu Ray much better?

I find the clean up too much, it looks better with the older film grain imo. I'm even a bit partial to the VHS.

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:07 am

Oh really? Hrmm....I thought the DVD still had too many "particles", even though they cleaned it up digitally. Is that what you're referring to?

I might like the BluRay more, if they took some of that out.

Is there a special edition of the BluRay? I only see the one version on Amazon.

You know, watching this, Royal Space Force, Ninja Scroll, and other animes from my youth(when it seemed like Anime was just starting to really start to come over here), make me depressed when I see the sissy ass shit that comes out of Japan now. Yeah, I went there.

xbl0x180 · Post by **xbl0x180** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:31 am

evil_ash_xero wrote:You know, watching this, Royal Space Force, Ninja Scroll, and other animes from my youth(when it seemed like Anime was just starting to really start to come over here), make me depressed when I see the sissy ass shit that comes out of Japan now. Yeah, I went there.

Oh, what door have you opened?

Anyway, I'd upgrade to the blu-ray only if it includes the cheezy Streamline dub. It's one of the rare instances where I enjoyed the dub, even with its glaring bad qualities. I saw this back in late 1992 on video and then I saw it was being featured at the Laemmle Theatre in LA - I snuck out for a midnight showing

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:32 am

Yes... it's very much improved. If you have the equipment the audio is MUCH better also.

Don't let Skykid tell you they used DNR to strip the grain out. They did not use DNR and the grain is intact. Anyone that tells you otherwise is use to watching the horrible streamline or criterion release (yes the criterion LD was awful, streamline gave them a USED and RETURNED theatrical print/negative... about as low grade as it gets). They were dark and had more grain than the original negatives.

The pioneer releases on LD (japan only), DVD and now Bluray are all light on grain and have very vivid color and are nice and bright.

I found it to be better than the dvd visually and the audio is much improved if you have equipment that handles HD audio. I've owned the Pioneer releases on LD, DVD and Bluray along with the criterion of the LD also.

ZenErik · Post by **ZenErik** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:44 am

Big improvements in the audio AND visual departments.

Definitely worth a buy if it's a favorite.

As someone mentioned, the Royal Space Force: The Wings of Honneamise BD is excellent. I've also got the Japanese releases for Nausicaa and Castle in the Sky. While there were some complaints about the picture in the Ghibli releases, they are much improved over the DVD releases. It's not even close. It's amazing how much better cel animation looks in HD. That's one thing that's unfortunate about early digital anime. It just doesn't look as good as quality cel animation or current digital animation.

Skykid · Post by **Skykid** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:55 am

I don't even know what DNR is.

I'm not saying it looks bad, just too clean for me. And I really doubt it's got the streamline dub in there, but yeah, that is the coolest worst dub ever, I love it.

rancor · Post by **rancor** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:05 am

evil_ash_xero wrote: You know, watching this, Royal Space Force, Ninja Scroll, and other animes from my youth(when it seemed like Anime was just starting to really start to come over here), make me depressed when I see the sissy ass shit that comes out of Japan now.

You and me both, brother.

..And don't forget Venus Wars.

xbl0x180 · Post by **xbl0x180** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:08 am

AND Wicked City, Vampire Hunter 'D', Fist Of The North Star (another perfectly-horrible dub), and the first two Legend Of The Overfiend movies (especially the second one)

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:40 am

Well, I bought it. I'm guessing I'll be happy with it.

The RSF BL is quite good.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:13 am

Skykid wrote:I don't even know what DNR is.

I'm not saying it looks bad, just too clean for me. And I really doubt it's got the streamline dub in there, but yeah, that is the coolest worst dub ever, I love it.

Digital noise reduction. By digitally filtering the image certain debris on the original negative can be cleaned up with a simple pass. However the much loved fine detail HD lovers adore is rubbed out in the process. For cell animation this provides a very clean look and grain simply gets washed out. In live action finer details such as fibres in clothing, skin, hair and other textures is pretty much gone.

Its a bit like the old dolby noise reduction on cassette tapes. It got rid of hiss and such, but the audio quality suffered quite a bit as a result. So its sorts out one problem by creating another.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:20 am

The blu ray is worth it for the 1:1 pixel mapping alone. For me its not a case of discussing if the blu ray is worth it, on a LCD or similar TV just getting rid of any scaling issues is a good enough reason no matter what the movie is. Obviously a bit of effort must go into a blu ray but in 99% of releases that seems to be the case.

The UK got a limited steelbook release but its B locked. It shares the same print as the US release. The Akira blu ray has the best audio of any blu ray due to the maximum resolution used by the format. It is the only one that uses the 192k resolution. I've never heard it myself, but some people who have loved it.

Estebang · Post by **Estebang** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:41 am

I would argue that some upscaled Blu-rays are still worth buying--TrueHD soundtracks are considerably clearer, even without audiophile sound equipment.

(Akira is not upscaled.)

xbl0x180 · Post by **xbl0x180** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:17 am

Ironically, I am a movie collector who watches videos through an old DVD player on an even older CRT teevee. All this wouldn't sway me since I don't have the equipment to tell the difference

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:48 am

Well its subjective if it matters to you or not. I work on the basis that if something is superior or inferior, I want the superior no matter what (except if price is a consideration).

If you have a HD TV and its a flat screen variety over 40" you should be buying blu rays all the time. Alot of people misunderstand HD and a lot of people have reason to doubt its superiority because of the way its broadcast.

Example -

Yesterday I went round a girls house and she has a HD box for receiving channels. Upon this type of argument about quality she flicks back and forth between the HD channel and the SD channel of the same thing and even I couldn't tell the difference. I think there was a difference but it was so negligible I would rather save the money it costs for HD.

But there are some free tests you can do.

Youtube -

Any PC can do HD. View a youtube video that has the HD symbol, go full screen or select 720 or 1080 (if applicable) and notice the difference in full screen mode.

Other considerations are that blu rays are generally scrutinized more and quite often restorations are necessary to please the masses.

To me having a HDTV and putting a DVD into it is like having a HDTV and using composite video. If you don't upgrade the whole chain you are losing out somewhere.

Skykid works on the basis that DVD is how something is supposed to look, but probably does not recognize that the look he likes is a side effect of limited/restricted technology from the DVD era. On the other hand, perhaps the guys who do the prints are looking for an ideal look that doesn't suit everyones taste. As long as choice exists we can be happy. SD is going to be a thing of the past in the next 5 years though, so get used to a lack of choice.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:45 am

Skykid wrote: I find the clean up too much, it looks better with the older film grain imo. I'm even a bit partial to the VHS.

This wreaks of all the old scanlines debates, but I don't think the grain was the original intention. I went and saw a digitally remastered version of it in the summer w/ adverse & NTSC-J, and it was unfucking believable (the sound trumped it hands down, but that's another story). Film grain is by and large exacerbated over time. It's an artifact, plain and simple. While there is some charm to seeing it, I'd rather it be exclusive to old media. Updated versions should be clean. I am certainly glad the Blade Runner BR has masturbatable clean up.

Back to the topic at hand: For the JPN release, they were really pushing the sound. In the liner notes, or the web page, or something, it says, not so directly, "You're doing it wrong if you don't watch this through a sound-system that supports uncompressed sound." I never did, but the event above (2 years later) more than made up for that. WHOA. Anyway, in commemoration of the release, Geinoh Yamashirogumi performed the soundtrack (most of it) the following weekend, which was a good show. They did new material after that which was more of a theater play. The only thing was the 2nd half was all electronic, and WAY louder than the Akira stuff. They also didn't play every track. But watching them play Attack of the Clowns live was pretty cool. Everyone playing those big bamboo things had to watch the conductor when they mix it in with Kaneda.

Skykid · Post by **Skykid** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:32 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:
Skykid wrote: I find the clean up too much, it looks better with the older film grain imo. I'm even a bit partial to the VHS.
This wreaks of all the old scanlines debates, but I don't think the grain was the original intention. I went and saw a digitally remastered version of it in the summer w/ adverse & NTSC-J, and it was unfucking believable (the sound trumped it hands down, but that's another story).

Yeah, well I went and watched it in the Prince Charles cinema in London the xmas before last and it was on an original reel and it was equally fucking unbelievable.

I don't want the print to be totally fucked, I really get pissed off by that (I've seen a few PCC prints that are just far to worse for wear to be exhibited), but I'm a sucker for genuine film stock.

And scanlines rule you weirdo.

maxlords · Post by **maxlords** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:48 pm

I would rape a nun for a blu-ray with the Streamline dub.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:20 pm

Skykid wrote: Yeah, well I went and watched it in the Prince Charles cinema in London the xmas before last and it was on an original reel and it was equally fucking unbelievable.

Definitely not... unless Prince Charles wheeled in a club sound system and then some. I've never felt an entire building rattle other than in an Earthquake.

And scanlines rule you weirdo.

Don't be gay. You know I like scanlines. My point is, while they are an artifact, they are (or should be) accounted for during the production of the game. Not so much with film grain. All I thought of, when I saw the remastered version with imperfections that are due to aging was, "this is how people saw it 20+ years ago". It was clean. Dope.

I would rape a nun for a blu-ray with the Streamline dub.

Whew... what on Earth for? And it is the first version I saw.

Skykid · Post by **Skykid** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:36 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:...

Just to clarify, film grain meaning the natural look of a celluloid reel (as you said, production artifacts), but not dirt, noise and reel decay. I've seen stuff that's barely watchable like that.

maxlords wrote:I would rape a nun for a blu-ray with the Streamline dub.

Ha ha, Cam Clarke ftw!

xbl0x180 · Post by **xbl0x180** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:02 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:Well its subjective if it matters to you or not. I work on the basis that if something is superior or inferior, I want the superior no matter what (except if price is a consideration).

It's not subjective when all I have is a barebones Philips DVD player and a 26" Toshiba CRT. There's no way I'm paying more for something that will get no use at all.

I'll stick to DVDs and will buy blu-rays once I upgrade the stuff (not bloody likely to happen any time soon)

AAA · Post by **AAA** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:19 pm

it's definitely worth upgrading. the animation looks amazing in HD. having the previous versions is nice for nostalgia purposes, but there is no way those older versions look better.
and the audio is even better. i play this in the full 192KHz quality, it's the best sounding disc i have - breathtaking audio mix.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:20 pm

Just to clarify, film grain meaning the natural look of a celluloid reel (as you said, production artifacts), but not dirt, noise and reel decay.

So things that would be visible in any type of restoration then, as long as it ended up on film.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:41 am

I'm all for the grain. But when I say I like the grain to remain... that means the source material was shot very well on good film stock.

GP mentioned Blade Runner. That's a good example of when I like the grain intact. The BR blueray has all the grain intact and no DNR was used to remove it. That's because they didn't need to. If they had used DNR it would have had no point and it would have stripped fine detail and made all the skin tones waxy.

Aliens is an example where the grain was to a fault and Cameron has been very vocal about being unhappy with the film stock they used. When DNR is used moderately and not just flipped on it can work wonders. The Aliens bluray looks better than the real film stock. They used just enough DNR to bring the grain down but not abolish it.

Good grain is barely visible if the cameraman did his job well. Bad grain is when it's just due to low production values and the cameraman was not talented. 2001 is a testament to film stock over digital cameras. It looks amazing on bluray. Everytime a higher resolution format comes out more detail is revealed. Our digital formats are still playing catch up to 30+ year old film stock/technology. Film's resolution isn't confined to zeros and ones or absolutes. It amazes me really. That such an old school tech can't be beat.

As far as scratches, speckling ect... get rid of all that crap.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:38 am

Yes but that 30 year old film stock ran on cameras the size of public telephone booths

. Not to mention the costs involved and keeping film pristine over 50-60 years (in some cases).

Grain is what makes the picture what it is. If you notice what we call "grain" it is because of lower quality stock used in the first place.

Eaglet · Post by **Eaglet** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:40 pm

Who cares about Bluray when you *puts on glasses* can get it on Laserdisc?

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:54 pm

PCE-FX!'ll add his two cents regarding the USA region Blu-Ray version of Akira. It's the same version that Pioneer released in the USA as a 2-disc Steelbook DVD edition. When Streamline Pictures released the 35mm print of Akira stateside back in the early 1990s, they added a bit cosmetic changes to Tetsuo (when he becomes a huge infantile creature, his genetials are covered with some high-tech machinery whereas in the original Japanese theaterical release, his private parts aren't covered whatsoever). The VHS, LD, DVD & BR versions of Akira released in the USA are all based off of the Streamline released 35mm print version of the same name.

I was recently at my local Best Buy store & saw that there's a Blu-Ray version of Akira without the extras that came with the 1st print BR ver. offered by Bandai Visual for the American BR audience.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

maxlords · Post by **maxlords** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:42 pm

Just as an aside about the Streamline dub vs. the Pioneer dub...apparently the Streamline dub was never released on DVD except in Australia as an alternate audio track (at least as far as I can find). All over the net people either want the Streamline dub, or think it's ridiculous to want it because the translation of the Pioneer one is so much better and hate that Cam Clarke did so many cartoons.

The reason I literally can't watch the Pioneer dub is simple. Just like the Streamline release, they hired really famous English voice actors (which pisses me off because people bitch about it on the Sttreamline release but are ok with it on the Pioneer one? Wtf?). Notably the voice actor for Trigun (Johnny Yong Bosch) that plays Vash the Stampede, one of my favorite animes ever. Unfortunately, not only is his style so radically different from Clarke's style for Kaneda (a soft spoken Kaneda, really??), but I've also watched Trigun SO many times that his voice is inextricably linked to the show in my mind and hearing him in Akira is SO disconcerting I literally can't enjoy the movie.

I would HAPPILY pay someone to make me a blu-ray bootleg with the audio track from the Streamline release. I'd actually pay a fair bit of money for that...

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:04 pm

I prefer watching BR Akira in it's native Japanese dub with subtitles. The first time I saw Akira was back in February of 1990 on VHS format.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

xbl0x180 · Post by **xbl0x180** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:26 pm

Eaglet wrote:Who cares about Bluray when you *puts on glasses* can get it on Laserdisc?

LDs are the LPs of video

I'm going to add the Australian DVD into my Amazon wishlist.

shmups.system11.org

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