Whats going on in america?

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ncp
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by ncp »

BulletMagnet wrote:So apparently Republicans ARE willing to raise taxes...as long as they only affect those earning less than six figures.
Pretty misleading wording there. They're aiming to let a tax cut on Social Security expire. A tax that everyone pays, but only on their first 106k. True, this is a "regressive" tax that affects lower incomes more than higher incomes, *percentage-wise*. It still takes just as much money, nominally, out of someone's 300k paycheck than someone's 110k paycheck, and more than from someone's 50k paycheck.

But Republicans willing to let this cut end is not surprising at all, and in fact quite in line with the right's point of view. For half of Americans (well, 46% according to that article) this is the only federal tax they actually pay on their income, and it's not even income tax. This is opposed to the other half, which pay both income tax AND SS tax, while the president is still claiming "the rich need to pay their fair share" (because paying "most of it" is still not a "fair share"). Is it truly unreasonable for a high-income individual who pays, say, 30% of their income to the government, to believe that a lower-income individual should pay 6.2% of theirs instead of 4.2%?

The tax itself was introduced to pay for Social Security, not as regular government revenue, and although the dollars themselves don't know the difference, the rich aren't getting any more benefit out of SS than the poor, so should they have to pay more into such a program when they already pay much much more income tax?
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BryanM
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

ncp wrote:while the president is still claiming "the rich need to pay their fair share" (because paying "most of it" is still not a "fair share").
a. The president is a liar and means little of what he says.

b. They're the ones with 93% of the money, so... are they paying 93% of the federal income tax?

God forbid a Doctor might have to go eat at a Denny's once in a while...
so should they have to pay more into such a program when they already pay much much more income tax?
Yes. The SS tax cap should be removed, so the damn program can remain solvent.

They could move to a country where they'd have to hire a small army of personal security for their private fortress if that vexes them so.
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BulletMagnet
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BulletMagnet »

ncp wrote:Is it truly unreasonable for a high-income individual who pays, say, 30% of their income to the government, to believe that a lower-income individual should pay 6.2% of theirs instead of 4.2%?
That argument would hold a bit more water if most of the rich didn't garner most of their wealth from capital gains, which are taxed at a much lower rate (and are increasingly hidden offshore anyway), but even discounting that, no, I have no problem with the people who have benefited most from the way the country's set up (and can continue to live high on the hog pretty much no matter how high their taxes are) paying a good deal more back into the system than the 150 million people that, combined, are worth less than the 400 wealthiest families.
They could move to a country where they'd have to hire a small army of personal security for their private fortress if that vexes them so.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by yojo! »

Another disgrace. I agree with Republicans on one thing: Obama must be a 1 term president.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by CMoon »

You know how they've sub-titled other elections, like 'Rock the vote', or whatever.

Can we officially call this: "2012: You choose, you lose"?

Also, is there any reason I can't list The Donner Party as my political affiliation?
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

2012: Ron Paul is Hope

....

Ron Paul is the most progressive candidate even at the stadium.

....

I feel like crying.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by yojo! »

BryanM wrote:2012: Ron Paul is Hope

....

Ron Paul is the most progressive candidate even at the stadium.

....

I feel like crying.
2008: Hope and Change

2012:Hope and Change my @$$ that's what it really is.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Blackbird »

CMoon wrote:Can we officially call this: "2012: You choose, you lose"?
2004 is calling, it wants it's catchphrase back.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Drum »

ncp wrote:
BulletMagnet wrote:So apparently Republicans ARE willing to raise taxes...as long as they only affect those earning less than six figures.
Pretty misleading wording there. They're aiming to let a tax cut on Social Security expire. A tax that everyone pays, but only on their first 106k. True, this is a "regressive" tax that affects lower incomes more than higher incomes, *percentage-wise*. It still takes just as much money, nominally, out of someone's 300k paycheck than someone's 110k paycheck, and more than from someone's 50k paycheck.

But Republicans willing to let this cut end is not surprising at all, and in fact quite in line with the right's point of view. For half of Americans (well, 46% according to that article) this is the only federal tax they actually pay on their income, and it's not even income tax. This is opposed to the other half, which pay both income tax AND SS tax, while the president is still claiming "the rich need to pay their fair share" (because paying "most of it" is still not a "fair share"). Is it truly unreasonable for a high-income individual who pays, say, 30% of their income to the government, to believe that a lower-income individual should pay 6.2% of theirs instead of 4.2%?

The tax itself was introduced to pay for Social Security, not as regular government revenue, and although the dollars themselves don't know the difference, the rich aren't getting any more benefit out of SS than the poor, so should they have to pay more into such a program when they already pay much much more income tax?
'Progressive' taxes are an ad-hoc way of fixing problems caused by the way money works (due to poor monetary design). Complaining about ad-hoc solutions when you don't seem to have an understanding of the problems they are trying to solve is not good. Most on the left don't understand the problems either - but at least they feel the results.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ganelon »

Blackbird wrote:2004 is calling, it wants it's catchphrase back.
I agree; 2004 was the year of the giant douche and the turd sandwich. Obama and Romney both seem more likable and sensible than either of the candidates in that year.

Anyway, I wouldn't count Obama out yet. He now has major public leverage for standing behind and getting something else big passed after his recent backsteps, which have cost Obama very little in terms of his core mandates and have helped position him as a balanced moderate. If he does have something up his sleeve, then forfeiting these smaller skirmishes to put further emphasis on the major battle is a solid political move. Making a fuss out of these trivial issues could really backfire and hurt Republicans down the line. My bet would be on Obama shrewdly coming up with something substantial to push through within a year—perhaps after acquiescing on 1 more minor point.
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BryanM
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

Well, even the Republicans think the Republicans are evil.

Can you have imagine what our country would be like today, if the dirt farmers of the 1900's had been like the Tea Partiers today?

And there are still folks who think political or cultural change are possible by themselves.. ha.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

I am the only person in the world who finds it amusing that we have a literal golden calf in front of our vatican of capitalism, and that the NYPD has spent thousands and thousands of dollars protecting it from hippies.

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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

There's also a golden somebody (Hercles?) stealing a golden apple from a golden tree near some hotel in NYC. I thought those things have been there for giggles all the time.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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BryanM wrote:I am the only person in the world who finds it amusing that we have a literal golden calf in front of our vatican of capitalism, and that the NYPD has spent thousands and thousands of dollars protecting it from hippies.
Not sure that'd technically qualify as a "calf", but either way I'm less concerned about possible snark-producing symbolism than the plain-as-day fact that corporations and the rich, after successfully shifting pretty much the entire recession-fighting burden onto the rest of us (not like it was their devil-may-care avarice and disregard for common sense that had anything to do with it, after all), are sitting on top of record-breaking piles of cash, refusing to invest any of it, and are still able to use "don't you dare tax us, we create jobs!" as a defense without being laughed off the stage.

Come the day when they're finally not able to get away with crap like this every freakin' time, I'll gladly let them put up whatever statuary they please in exchange.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ganelon »

The government is just subscribing to the broken windows theory, but it's typical western philosophy of attacking the problem instead of preventing the cause. Too bad our political system has been corrupted by complacency regarding corporate influence. If we had a zero tolerance policy for politicians accepting any corporate donations (how's that for campaign reform?) and favors with the punishment being lifetime banishment from holding public office—or better yet, life imprisonment—then maybe we'd have politicians actually interested in doing the best for the country and people wouldn't be upset enough to start protests.

But Republicans won't hesitate to leave companies unregulated to gain an unfair market advantage while Democrats will gladly save companies that fell down going all in on a big buck and don't deserve to be saved. So we're in this trap where we can't escape the stranglehold of corporate greed. The big bailout supported by both parties seemed like a redux of the Y2K problem where there was an irrational fear of collapse even though nobody could say for sure what was going to happen; and like Y2K, we spent an insane amount of money for questionable gains. Sure, some financial positions pay mostly off bonus; but it's not the taxpayer's fault that the employee didn't realize the company was a bust. And besides, these people still made enough off salary to live comfortably (for an average person).

I empathize with the recent rallying against Wall Street and am baffled at how people haven't been in outrage over the recent Secretaries of the Treasury. We've set a very poor precedent by giving the biggest and most influential banks even more power with the knowledge that even if they collapse, Uncle Sam will be ready with the cash transfusion. As an executive, you would have to be dumb not to take extra risks (within the new, slightly subdued limits) knowing there are possibly huge gains and a lifeline if you screw up badly. But in this particular photo, ironically, the specific bronze bull in question hardly stands for Wall Street dominance and big banks; if anything, it represents the opposite: a transparent symbol of optimism that was created impromptu and survived with the public's support.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by GaijinPunch »

but it's not the taxpayer's fault that the employee didn't realize the company was a bust. And besides, these people still made enough off salary to live comfortably (for an average person).
This is a slippery slope. A lot of these guys get a pretty basic salary... sometimes around $100k a year. I know that seems like a lot, but the bonuses are several fold that -- maybe 10x. I know that seems exuberant, but if you're making $10 mil w/ the company's money, there is nothing wrong w/ wanting a mil for yourself.

I happen to know one guy who was the head of a group that did remarkably well in both 2007 and 2008. I don't remember what the circumstances were in 2007 (whole company did bad?) but basically nobody in his group of 10-20 people got bonuses, despite the fact they were way in the black. 2008 rolled along and they made a retarded amount of money... but, now they whole company globally is on government bailout, so of course, again, no bonus. This is in light of the fact that they made buckets of cash.

If you don't work in a similar field it is quite a foreign concept, but it's basically like the manager of a restaurant walking up to a waiter and swiping the tip for some reason above the waiters head. The waiter makes $2 an hour (please, socialists, don't comment on the pay structure our service sector... you get what you pay for, and anyone that's visited Europe knows that it's worth it) which is something, but they wouldn't do the job if it was just that.

Now the whole "for an average" person is right, but generally somebody in such a position is not sporting an average lifestyle. They've already got kids in private school, mortgage, and all kind so of other shit. If you think of it in absolute terms it's enough to survive a decent life. If you think of it in relative terms, you're talking up to 90% cut of income, which is a total fist fuck. In reality, you're looking at over 50% for a lot of people... not just executives.

Just trying to show that the situation isn't so black and white.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

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The big bailout supported by both parties seemed like a redux of the Y2K problem where there was an irrational fear of collapse even though nobody could say for sure what was going to happen
If memory serves the main stated "justification" for the bailout was to avoid a near-total collapse along the lines of what sparked the Depression, and that while the efforts were very flawed they at least kept things from being worse than they could have been. That said, I certainly wouldn't have been averse to attaching a whole lot more conditions to those bailouts (a la "you know those stupid moves you made that are requiring this in the first place? don't do those anymore"), though it would have been better still if we hadn't wiped out a good chunk of the Depression-era regulation (oh, sorry, "job-killing class warfare") that had kept such collapses from happening for a long time in the first place.
Ganelon wrote:Too bad our political system has been corrupted by complacency regarding corporate influence. If we had a zero tolerance policy for politicians accepting any corporate donations (how's that for campaign reform?) and favors with the punishment being lifetime banishment from holding public office—or better yet, life imprisonment—then maybe we'd have politicians actually interested in doing the best for the country and people wouldn't be upset enough to start protests.
A conservative (compared to me, anyway) who doesn't believe that treating absolutely everything, public office included, as a commodity and leaving it subject to the whims of greed is always the best option? Now THERE'S a "middle ground" I can strive for - heck, want to run on a joint ticket in 2012?
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

BTW, if you got sucked into the gold+silver pump and dump scam, now's the time to dump.

Remember the old days when you got hit for 90% for everything above ~$5 million? Was the economy back then completely based on pump and dump?

I like how the hot potato scam obscured itself so it wasn't obvious to the marks that it was a pump and dump. Very elaborate dresses for a very old pig..
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Ganelon
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by Ganelon »

GaijinPunch wrote:This is a slippery slope. A lot of these guys get a pretty basic salary... sometimes around $100k a year. I know that seems like a lot, but the bonuses are several fold that -- maybe 10x. I know that seems exuberant, but if you're making $10 mil w/ the company's money, there is nothing wrong w/ wanting a mil for yourself.
That was my understanding as well, having known traders making $250k with over $1 million in bonuses. The problem is that some of these companies like AIG had no hope of surviving. If the government didn't step in, these employees would have had their salary cut immediately with no bonuses anyway and all remaining money going to to creditors. That they remained employed with a salary lasting a full year and only a single year of inconvenience is thanks to taxpayer support.

If they weren't clueless, they wouldn't have stuck around with companies immersed in risk, just like home buyers who weren't clueless at the time wouldn't have agreed to exotic variable rate loans to buy houses during the time. Everybody knew the bubble wouldn't last.

And if AIG's retirement plans included a lot of the company's own stock, then we gave the employees a huge favor. For folks who optimistically overspent, well, join the rest of the poor sods who were suddenly affected by the mortgage crisis. If you had worked anywhere else and the company collapsed out of your control before bonus time, you wouldn't have received a cent. So to conveniently leave a loophole for financial firms to keep their end of the "bargain" off the backs of taxpayers seems awfully repugnant.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

80 arrests, kettling and mace, in NYC today.

I guess that's what happens when you embarrass rich people. I guess their sit in on the auction was more powerful than I thought it was.....

Woman being maced in face. Cop laughed afterward. Video censored by The Man so you have to log in to see it.
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by DragonInstall »

BryanM wrote:Woman being maced in face. Cop laughed afterward. Video censored by The Man so you have to log in to see it.
Kind of hard to see who did it and why, but it seemed like an unprovoked macing. But I lost all sympathy after seeing how much they overreacted..........
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

DragonInstall wrote:Kind of hard to see who did it and why, but it seemed like an unprovoked macing. But I lost all sympathy after seeing how much they overreacted..........
Haha okay man go blender up some fresh jalepenos and wash your eyes out with them. Also remember to snort some of the stuff. Then multiply that by 20!

What whiny sisses. Not being able to breathe well for half an hour builds character!
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BulletMagnet »

Ganelon wrote:Everybody knew the bubble wouldn't last.
That certainly wasn't the tune that most conservative economists and pundits were singing, seeing as they dismissed "bubble believers" like Krugman as fearmongering hacks and insisted that the Dow was going to hit 30,000+ because they'd finally unleashed the true power of the free market. It certainly wasn't the liberal side of the equation that was disseminating the "go into debt and flip houses like there's no tomorrow, because prices will keep going up forever" message that became the clarion call of the past decade (and on the governmental level you've already heard me and others complain about how much deficit spending the so-called "economic conservatives" let Bush get away with, sans anything resembling protest from the likes of them).
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by maxlords »

And here I thought the general consensus was that the free market economies were vastly overinflated and that the Dow has been overinflated since it cracked 10K.....
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

Just wanted to repeat that Grizzly bears, those motherfuckers that'll eat you before you can manage to pee yourself, slink off and don't want anymore fightin' after a can of pressurized capsaicin/oil mix to the face.

So those girls are totally pussies for not being tougher than bears. Totally.
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DragonInstall
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by DragonInstall »

BryanM wrote:Just wanted to repeat that Grizzly bears, those motherfuckers that'll eat you before you can manage to pee yourself, slink off and don't want anymore fightin' after a can of pressurized capsaicin/oil mix to the face.

So those girls are totally pussies for not being tougher than bears. Totally.
Geez let it go already. If you're trying to get me angry with your sarcastic remarks, it won't work. :wink:

I've been hit by mace by accident before, that's why to me they were overreacting to it. Have you been hit by one before, or are you just reading a wiki at the effects of what mace can do?

Although it might be human nature to act as if you're dying at any sudden discomfort in public, just for your own benefit.
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BryanM
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by BryanM »

You got "accidentally" maced directly in the face. You're tougher than grizzly bears and marine guy who says he preferred being tazed or tear gassed over Freeze +P, combined. Good for you. You're better off than the 60+ people who've been killed by the stuff.

I also once ripped off a whale's head in single combat.

(Or, possibly, you're confusing the much less diluted product police carry with the over the counter stuff they'll sell to eight year olds. The NYPD seems to carry Sabre Red, which is a super fun happy thing to play with. At least compared to Vexor, which melts faces off.)
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by xbl0x180 »

I was handcuffed and peppersprayed by the pigs when I was 15. They wouldn't give me water to wash the s*** off for almost 30 minutes - it burned real bad from my nostrils down to my esophagus and even into my ears. I was producing so much mucus, I was snorting like a buffalo for hours hahah. Once it was washed off, that stuff still burned days later. It isn't for the faint of heart.

F*** those pigs. They're just another street gang to avoid 8)
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by louisg »

xbl0x180 wrote:I was handcuffed and peppersprayed by the pigs when I was 15. They wouldn't give me water to wash the s*** off for almost 30 minutes - it burned real bad from my nostrils down to my esophagus and even into my ears. I was producing so much mucus, I was snorting like a buffalo for hours hahah. Once it was washed off, that stuff still burned days later. It isn't for the faint of heart.

F*** those pigs. They're just another street gang to avoid 8)
Ow. Yes, I've heard stories. A friend of mine was eating at a Denny's when someone got pepper sprayed across the room. It cleared the joint out; you apparently could feel it at least just a little a dozen feet away.

So how come you got sprayed?
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Re: Whats going on in america?

Post by GaijinPunch »

That was my understanding as well, having known traders making $250k with over $1 million in bonuses. The problem is that some of these companies like AIG had no hope of surviving. If the government didn't step in, these employees would have had their salary cut immediately with no bonuses anyway and all remaining money going to to creditors. That they remained employed with a salary lasting a full year and only a single year of inconvenience is thanks to taxpayer support.
Right... but... switching jobs isn't so easy, and the only time you do it after March of any year is when you know you're going to get shafted on your bonus. The bonus isn't in the contract (usually). It's fucking nuts how many people switch jobs as week after the bonus checks hit.

Once the shit hit the fan though, I think people were either happy to keep their job, hoping things would get better in the years to come, or if they had enough saved up, just kick back for a few years. Many people scrambled for fewer jobs. Sadly, many that wanted/needed work couldn't get it... very skilled people sometimes.

Anyhoo... yeah, it's all fucked. Basically nobody was able to complain about not getting a bonus that year. The problem is those big companies are kind of notorious for shafting people on the way out the door. My group had a record year during a lull in the market (2003) and they laid us off on fucking Xmas, and kept our bonus money. It was at Bank of America -- remember that as you do business with them. Luckily I was a local Japanese hire so I got a pretty good firing package (5 months from the company, 3 months from the government).
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