The future of Cave

[evil_ash_xero]

None of these have any relevance whatsoever with playing the game for score so I'm going to assume you don't have much idea what you're talking about here.

Well, I wasn't talking about playing for score.

gah...don't worry about it....

[MX7]

None of these have any relevance whatsoever with playing the game for score so I'm going to assume you don't have much idea what you're talking about here.

What a stupid thing to say. If one feels the game is boring and ugly and doesn't constantly challenge you to just survive, there's no point in even bothering to score. Not to mention that DFK has perhaps the worst scoring system in Cave history.

I personally think DFK is quite fun as a knockaround kind of game, but the scoring system is so bad I would never waste my time playing it properly. I would very much like to try out Black Label, however.

[Bananamatic]

I personally think Cave games are quite fun as a knockaround kind of games

the 1cc is easy
the scoring is anal

I'll buy DFK just for the soundtrack and I'm not going to regret it
Cave is all about the atmosphere, everything else is wank

disclaimer: this is an opinion

[charlie chong]

i found akai katana unpossible. i dunno why just couldn't get far at all. i only played it for about 5-6 days but usually i would be on the last level in 2-4 days in any cave game (at my current skill level anyways)

[Erppo]

None of these have any relevance whatsoever with playing the game for score so I'm going to assume you don't have much idea what you're talking about here.

Well, I wasn't talking about playing for score.

gah...don't worry about it....

Well you basically said you wanted someone to attack you so I figured out I might as well do that.

But honestly, I don't see much point in judging a game any other way because scoring is what you will most likely end up doing if you play a game seriously for a while. Also like Gus pointed out, in a modern game with more involved scoring system, you will ignore most of the design and gameplay if you ignore the scoring so you really can't have a full opinion of the game that way.

If one feels the game is boring and ugly and doesn't constantly challenge you to just survive, there's no point in even bothering to score.

What a stupid thing to say.

What if it's boring just because you're not trying to score? Ugly (and pretty) stops mattering after a couple of plays and the last point is just stupid.

E: The system itself is of course a matter of opinion but I'd still like to hear some reasons why you think it's significantly worse than DOJ for example. I'm asking this just because it often seems that people who dislike the system don't even know what it is so I'm just curious if that's the case.

[Paradigm]

the 1cc is easy

I take it you've 1CC'ed Donpachi, Dodonpachi, DOJ, DFK Power and DFK BL Strong then?

I can't be arsed to list all of CAVE's difficult games but you get the point.

[Skykid]

the 1cc is easy

I take it you've 1CC'ed Donpachi, Dodonpachi, DOJ, DFK Power and DFK BL Strong then?

If he has will he be allowed to post a reply?

I personally think DFK is quite fun as a knockaround kind of game, but the scoring system is so bad I would never waste my time playing it properly. I would very much like to try out Black Label, however.

Via Icarus's encouragement I've been examining vanilla DFK a little more. Although BL appeals to me more because I find the scoring system requires a little less thought and you can throw yourself straight into it, I can see how the balance of DFK results in a very appealing scoring game for top players. The entire notion of the autobomb and its impact on your score is a fundamental that really bothers me tho, and I honestly think the game would have benefited greatly from removing this aspect - but when I'm done with BL I'll try to persevere a little more with vanilla.

[Bananamatic]

I take it you've 1CC'ed Donpachi, Dodonpachi, DOJ, DFK Power and DFK BL Strong then?

I can't be arsed to list all of CAVE's difficult games but you get the point.

there is a difference between "hard" and "I hope you aren't serious about beating it"

[evil_ash_xero]

This is true, if they're ugly and boring, there's no reason to try to score.

This goes for all things.

[Deca]

I'll buy DFK just for the soundtrack and I'm not going to regret it

+1

[dunpeal2064]

I find it strange that no one consideres the Cave games with Novice modes too easy too clear because of those, but that people take the easiest way out in DFK and DS, just because it isn't labelled "Novice"

Even playing for survival, I can find a challenge in both of those games, if I want to.

On the same hand, I could sleep my way through Futari Ultra Novice. Doesn't mean that the entire game is too easy to clear, even when just playing for survival.

Just my opinion of course. Heck, if you want a game to just hand you your own ass on a silver platter, DFK BL Strong does that pretty well, even with auto bomb ON.

I haven't tried Akai Kitana yet, so I can't speak to that one, but I can find some amount of enjoyment out of any Cave game I have tried.

[Treasurance]

the 1cc is easy
the scoring is anal

yar

I'll buy DFK just for the soundtrack and I'm not going to regret it

you will
does it even have the image song

Cave is all about the atmosphere, everything else is wank

won't be finding any here

guess what game really is all atmosphere & wank

[Special World]

Yeah, I find DFK hard as hell since playing as bomb or strong give me no satisfaction. It's like someone handing you 40 credits and asking you to clear the game.

Deathsmiles actually is pretty easy until you hit death mode, though. I'm not very good at these games, and I can clear level 3s without dying. I could see how a skilled player might be really bored by everything else. I guess that's what MBL is for, but I don't really like the scoring as much at all. Could just be because I suck, but it's just not as good, imo.

[Zengeku3]

guess what game really is all atmosphere & wank

Surely you are talking about Deathsmiles.

[charlie chong]

guess what game really is all atmosphere & A wank

Surely you are talking about Deathsmiles.

FIXXED

[BPzeBanshee]

Then again, RF2 is meant to be the easiest one of the series with JET being the hardest, or something like that. I can get to Phase 2 pretty consistently on a good run but haven't cleared it yet - RF2's on my 'one day soon' list myself.

I always thought original RF was the easiest and the series scaled up in difficulty, but I could be wrong.

Kaiser told me that it was basically from easiest to hardest RF2 > RF > RFJ, and he did STGT one year for those games so I doubt he'd be wrong. That said the region versions for all Seibu games do strange things to difficulty so who knows eh.

[evil_ash_xero]

DFK BL had a great soundtrack, actually. But that's really not enough.

[brentsg]

DFK BL had a great soundtrack, actually. But that's really not enough.

So DFK BL was also too easy for you?

[ptoing]

Speaking about DFK, I HATE those rotating things in stage 5, they get me all the time.
Looks like you can shoot them in Arrange A and BL (have not tried BL yet) which is nice.

[Casper<3]

Speaking about DFK, I HATE those rotating things in stage 5, they get me all the time.
Looks like you can shoot them in Arrange A and BL (have not tried BL yet) which is nice.

You can't kill them in BL (at least I never have) but you can hyper and use rapid shot at the same time so it's not as bad as in 1.5

[third_strike]

Noobs thinking about DFK 1.5:
1- "DFK 1.5 is pretty easy"
2- "In DFK 1.5 bullet cancel is easy"
3- "Auto bomb in DFK 1.5 sucks"

But:
1- If the game is easy then try no miss no, bomb and no hyper the whole first loop.
2- Wrong, a proper bullet cancel is indeed the hardest part in stage, there is so much enemies in each stage then full chain is not hard.
3- And you getting hit too much times sucks even more.

[Skykid]

Noobs thinking about DFK 1.5:
1- "DFK 1.5 is pretty easy"
2- "In DFK 1.5 bullet cancel is easy"
3- "Auto bomb in DFK 1.5 sucks"

But:
1- If the game is easy then try no miss no, bomb and no hyper the whole first loop.
2- Wrong, a proper bullet cancel is indeed the hardest part in stage, there is so much enemies in each stage then full chain is not hard.
3- And you getting hit too much times sucks even more.

This post had credibility until you tried to justify the autobomb.

[Zengeku3]

I never really understood why so many people dislike auto-bombing. In the few cases I've tried games with auto-bombing, it actually felt pretty neat to be able to use 110% of your dodging skill since when you don't have to worry about dying with bombs in stock, you can sometimes pull off insane dodges that you normally wouldn't dare to attempt.

It makes things more fun in a way although certainly also a lot less challenging.

[Erppo]

This post had credibility until you tried to justify the autobomb.

Yes, the highest scoring western player has absolutely no credibility when talking about the game.

But really when you get hit your chain is gone and you are fucked. What does it even matter if there is an autobomb or not? And if it is an issue, what's preventing you from playing Power?

[evil_ash_xero]

DFK BL had a great soundtrack, actually. But that's really not enough.

So DFK BL was also too easy for you?

I just dislike all the bullet "eating".

And I didn't write this to be "attacked", as someone put it. I wrote it to see if anyone saw this either, and was concerned, as I am. They're about all we got, and if they go down....dark times....

[ZenErik]

There will always be doujin shmups. Sure, most of them are terrible, but some groups are putting out top notch stuff.

[brentsg]

DFK BL had a great soundtrack, actually. But that's really not enough.

So DFK BL was also too easy for you?

I just dislike all the bullet "eating".

And I didn't write this to be "attacked", as someone put it. I wrote it to see if anyone saw this either, and was concerned, as I am. They're about all we got, and if they go down....dark times....

It just came across as steering the thread toward the Skykid meh thread, imo. Everyone has tastes that differ. I personally think Espgaluda II is terrible. That didn't mean Cave was going to shit, obviously.

Anyhow, there seem to be a bunch of people that will play the easiest mode of a game for survival and then complain that the game is too easy. It makes no sense.

[Weak Boson]

I'm have mixed feelings about scoring in DFK 1.5. It's a cool system, but it's such a bitch to learn. When I first played the game I thought you just had to hyper as much as possible and I was dissatisfied because doing that literally wipes away half the fun. Now I'm awed by it, but I still can't get a decent chain out of stage 2. I guess it's just a really inaccessible game. This in contrast to Deathsmiles in which it's easy to get sucked into both survival, for novices to the genre, and scoring after that (though I'm not fond of the suicide bullets).

Now, as eager as I am to play Akai Katana, a part of me hopes their next game will move away from that kind of bullet bouncing craziness towards a more straightforward formidable but fair survival challenge, as in DOJ or Ketsui. Maybe AK has that, I don't know, but it would be nice to see it as more of a central feature of the game than a kind of side show.

[Erppo]

I'm have mixed feelings about scoring in DFK 1.5. It's a cool system, but it's such a bitch to learn. When I first played the game I thought you just had to hyper as much as possible and I was dissatisfied because doing that literally wipes away half the fun. Now I'm awed by it, but I still can't get a decent chain out of stage 2. I guess it's just a really inaccessible game. This in contrast to Deathsmiles in which it's easy to get sucked into both survival, for novices to the genre, and scoring after that (though I'm not fond of the suicide bullets).

I found it really fun to learn by first working out easy full chain strategies where I use hypers to get past all the points I couldn't chain and then gradually work out the hypers to make the routes (and scores) better. Because of this I find it a lot more accessible than the other DDPs where you don't really have any choice other than learning the real chains. In DFK, it's comparatively not that hard to do a simple full stage chain. The real difficulty comes from minimizing the hyper time.

[Weak Boson]

Yeah, it's highly possible that I'm trying to punch above my weight when it comes to choosing a strategy. It just doesn't seem to be such a flexible a system. Part of what I liked about Deathsmiles was how it let you gradually increase the difficulty of the scoring techniques you used; I don't feel that in DFK, but maybe I'm just not approaching it in the right way.