Paraphenomenon and Skepticism

[dpful]

People feel out of control when they perceive they're world to be unexplainable and unpredictable and it's a little scary.
People feel more out of control when their own PERCEPTION is unexplainable or unpredictable. That is MORE scary. People avoid confronting this second phenomenon.
Is this true? Does it answer the question?

[xbl0x180]

Sometimes, when I'm sleeping, I can feel a weighted presence lie down on my bed and a few moments later, get up and leave (btw, there isn't anybody else on the bed except for myself). What's up with that?

I feel the same thing almost every night. It is extremely predictable and I believe it is related to muscles relaxing. I tried looking this up on google. Guess what? Half the people who experience this are looking for explanations involving ghosts and out of body experiences. Why?

Could it be something as simple as "lucid dreaming" and/or "sleep paralysis" (i.e., a lesser version of "night terrors")?



I never understood the notion of "ghosts," esp. the ones that look like people and have clothing. As a kid, I'd ask myself: "do the clothes die as well and turn into spirits?" and "if an a limb is amputated, does the limb itself turn into a ghost?". The other thing about ghosts/otherworldly beings is "speech." Speech sounds require vocal cords and lungs in humans and animals. How would a ghost create a sound without them? None of that ghost bunk made sense the way most people explained it to me. I think the only stories I enjoyed were the Japanese ones, which depicted a ghost as a ball of fire.

[CMoon]

Sometimes, when I'm sleeping, I can feel a weighted presence lie down on my bed and a few moments later, get up and leave (btw, there isn't anybody else on the bed except for myself). What's up with that?

I feel the same thing almost every night. It is extremely predictable and I believe it is related to muscles relaxing. I tried looking this up on google. Guess what? Half the people who experience this are looking for explanations involving ghosts and out of body experiences. Why?

Could it be something as simple as "lucid dreaming" and/or "sleep paralysis" (i.e., a lesser version of "night terrors")?

Actually I experience it before I fall asleep. Just as my body is really relaxing it will start feeling like the bed is shaking. If I open my eyes, it goes away instantly. I am sure there is some relationship between disorientation/vertigo and muscles relaxing--definitely a product of perception; not ghosts jumping up and down on my bed.

[xbl0x180]

I feel the same thing almost every night. It is extremely predictable and I believe it is related to muscles relaxing. I tried looking this up on google. Guess what? Half the people who experience this are looking for explanations involving ghosts and out of body experiences. Why?

Could it be something as simple as "lucid dreaming" and/or "sleep paralysis" (i.e., a lesser version of "night terrors")?

Actually I experience it before I fall asleep. Just as my body is really relaxing it will start feeling like the bed is shaking. If I open my eyes, it goes away instantly. I am sure there is some relationship between disorientation/vertigo and muscles relaxing--definitely a product of perception; not ghosts jumping up and down on my bed.

You could try to get a referral from your doctor for a sleep study to see if maybe you are entering REM sleep faster than normal. Just make sure you also don't have any narcolepsy symptoms since they'll report you to the DMV

[CMoon]

Well I recognize that many people are actually experiencing while they describe themselves as awake, but I have tracked other stimuli (IE my cat, noises outside, etc.) while this is happening, so I know I am actually awake. Can you enter REM while you are awake??! As much as we do know through science and medicine, I've always held the belief that there are a lot of little quirks about the body that aren't entirely understood, and if they aren't hurting you (I've been experiencing this for ~10 years), probably are of no concern.

[Randorama]

I won't pretend to understand Wittegenstein But if by "the world" he means "material" world, yes. If he means the immaterial world too, such as metaphysical ideas and concepts like mathematics, and aesthetic judgements....I disagree. It is beyond testing.

If something is the case (it happens), then it is the world. People make aesthetic judgements, and those become the case as a consequence. Same with mathematical judgements. Can these judgements be tested? Yes, one can test whether a mathematical proposition correctly describes the phenomenon it purports to describe. One can also test whether

Just to clarify, are you saying this is bad science, because it presupposes something that is not necessarily related to the outcome?

Yes. Piattelli-Palmarini & Fodor's What Darwin got wrong presents the argument in detail.

Science is an ongoing process within the realm of physical phenomena.

What is not physical?

For example, it can't prove the Nazi's Holocaust was worse than the American internment of the Japanese Americans, which falls into whether something is right or wrong, not science.

In order to prove this, one would need to introduce a way to measure a "coefficient of cruelty" in acts of war, measure the data, and compare. One could also establish at which level something is right or wrong. Michael Gazzaniga is doing related research, on an individual scale.

I'm not sure if we're on the same page though.

We're not. I'll suggest what is missing here:

If a supernatural event occurs, and cannot be explained by science, yes, we are left with belief.

You're presupposing that some event is "supernatural" because science hasn't tackled it yet.

Say, a door opens and shuts three times in front of me, and then I hear a voice that says "eat my shorts." I can only speculate the cause (belief), but I can't deny the supernatural event.

Why it should be "supernatural"? Do you have any evidence that it cannot be explained by current science? A scientist may start with the zero hypothesis, that if some unkown event occurs, any cause may lies behind its occurring. Except for hypotheses that do not make sense with already acquired knowledge, of course.

And if I tell someone else, say, a scientist, him disregarding the event itself as false would be a mistake. Beyond the supernatural event itself, the situations surrounding it also matter. I have a feeling I'm misunderstanding your point though.

One can't disregard events as "false" because they we still have not encountered. Unexplained, yes, but if something happens, then some other events have set it in motion. Science is about tackling unexplained phenomena all the time, and trying to make PREDICTIONS on how they may turn out to work, based on PREVIOUS KNOWLEDGE. "Scientists" who do not do this and brand events as false are buffoons.

My question would be, why do we even have the capability for this to begin with? There are two ways to go,

Which ones? I can't see how you go from this conclusion to the one below:

and if one limits their understanding to pure science, one is left with materialism, and leads to a lot of problems.

[xbl0x180]

Well I recognize that many people are actually experiencing while they describe themselves as awake, but I have tracked other stimuli (IE my cat, noises outside, etc.) while this is happening, so I know I am actually awake. Can you enter REM while you are awake??! As much as we do know through science and medicine, I've always held the belief that there are a lot of little quirks about the body that aren't entirely understood, and if they aren't hurting you (I've been experiencing this for ~10 years), probably are of no concern.

You can experience sleep paralysis while being conscious, which would feel as if something is pressing on your own body (it's really you feeling your own dead weight). You can also experience REM sleep without sleep paralysis, which would make you physically act out your dreams. If you don't get REM sleep at all, then you'll just hallucinate while awake over time (I think some schizophrenics suffer from this). If it doesn't hurt and is not affecting your health, then you can live with it. I'd think it would be interesting to find out what it is [if it were me].



The "life flashing before one's eyes" stems from the brain scanning every life experience in order to try to find an answer and deal with what is happening to the body (i.e., dying). Same thing with the whole "floating" and "out of body" experiences; those are remnants of brain activity taking place in a matter of fractions of seconds. Being dead is probably more like being in a coma, some kind of dreamless sleep, as Plato once guessed. Human or any kind of consciousness is not eternal

[CMoon]

I haven't experienced any of those. The only other weird sleep experiences I ever have is the rare waking dreams, where I have a few moments of still being in the dream after waking up (typically a startle reaction), which fades within a few second (more worrisome when it lasts more than a minute.) Again, assume this is typical for many.

[Daigohji]

This is NOT weasels.

[dcharlie]

The only other weird sleep experiences I ever have is the rare waking dreams, where I have a few moments of still being in the dream after waking up (typically a startle reaction), which fades within a few second (more worrisome when it lasts more than a minute.) Again, assume this is typical for many.

been having this almost every night recently and it's very weird - fun seeing your half asleep brain try to figure out what the hell is going on. It's quite an unusual experience.

due to a recurring nightmare from the age of about 8 until 16 (same dream pretty much every night) i was able to learn how to lucid dream as long as i had that dream as a trigger. Unfortunately, the elements of that nightmare only crop up once in a blue moon these days.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Opening your eyes suddenly during a mid-dream is quite different. I've had that type of situation happen to me a couple of times where the dream is literally in front of your line of sight and slowly dissolves/fades into reality. I realize that no modern-day sci-fi or horror flick has ever made this type of transitional scene into another scene, especially in 1st person perspective point of view. Combine such suddenly waking up while dreaming along with sleep paralysis is something else indeed (you can move your eyes but you can't move your body type of situation until a few seconds later upon regaining muscle control).

I once had a dream that I was inside this densely populated forest of tall redwood trees, suddenly opened my eyes and saw the forest slowly disssolve into the darkness that was my sleeping quarters. It almost seemed as if I was really within this forest upon getting up from my bed.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Siren2011]

That pretty much is the scariest feeling ever. Waking up being unable to move. I know there's going to be an Earthquake and I'm going to fucking have it.

Heh. I had a couple of episodes of this when I was a kid. All my muscles were locked, I could only focus my vision in a fixed direction, and I couldn't breathe.

It's the only situation I could think of where getting a wake up blowjob would be horrifying.

Speaking of night terrors, I had a particularly disturbing ordeal in mid 2010 when I had a severe case of insomnia. I would go to bed worried, and the entire night (I shit you not), even though I was technically "asleep", my eyes would open and stay that way until morning. The feeling is hard to describe, because no doubt some of you are thinking, "well can't you only be either asleep or conscious of the real world and no in between?" I felt both. Don't ask me how, because I haven't the slightest idea.

[mouser]

If something is the case (it happens), then it is the world. People make aesthetic judgements, and those become the case as a consequence. Same with mathematical judgements. Can these judgements be tested? Yes, one can test whether a mathematical proposition correctly describes the phenomenon it purports to describe. One can also test whether

Hm, the point is that they DO exist, and point to certain truths. The idea that 1+1=2 is not a physical scientific proof, it is simply an intangible concept. I can like anime art more than the artwork of Michaelangelo....but no one can prove I'm incorrect for thinking so. They can't even prove I think it. Any phenomena that occurs because of these thoughts merely presupposes these truths, but it doesn't physically prove the truths exist.

Yes. Piattelli-Palmarini & Fodor's What Darwin got wrong presents the argument in detail.

Judging from what CMoon stated, isn't much of what we know of evolution from theoretical science? If the authors dismiss Darwin, they must have their own theory themselves. They use factual evidence to support theories.

What is not physical?

Anything metaphysical. Some are repetitions of above, but:

• Logic: I can reason that if I know how to read, someone taught me how to read. The fact that I can reason is a truth.
• Math: 2+2=4. It's a notion, an intangible truth.
• Thought: I'm thinking right now of buying Gears of War 3. It's just a thought...intangible.
• Ethics: Murder is bad. It's an intangible idea. Some sickos may disagree, but it is still a moral judgment that exists, and affects our daily lives.
• Beauty: the beauty of an object cannot be scientifically proven. I think Marilyn Monroe is unattractive....pinup artists seem to disagree. Science can't PROVE she is beautiful. Eww.
• Science: Its very methodology is a metaphysical enterprise, and presupposes many things we cannot absolutely know because we lack omniscience. (ie. is the speed of light REALLY constant throughout the universe?). Our lack of omniscience is precisely why science is limited.
• Perception: "I can see. Oh crap, someone just poked my eyes out, I'm blind!" An earthworm, if it could comprehend my language, would wonder what I'm babbling about...it has no eyes. Still, our perception exists, and our interpretation of physical senses, even if we can't prove it to an earthworm.

To simplify...more exists than what is tangible and physical. Could the possibility that something more exists in the intangible realm be that farfetched?

In order to prove this, one would need to introduce a way to measure a "coefficient of cruelty" in acts of war, measure the data, and compare. One could also establish at which level something is right or wrong. Michael Gazzaniga is doing related research, on an individual scale.

I find computational judgments of what is morally better....questionable. A youtube video posed this question (which you may be familiar with).

When would rape be morally acceptable? In a hypothetical situation:

If a bunch of aliens came down and said "we're going to destroy all of humanity if you don't rape a little girl," would rape be acceptable?

Yes? How about 2 girls? Yes? How about 2,000 girls?

Or, is slavery ever morally good? If the U.S. stated that slavery was a necessity to keep the nation going...is it okay?

We're not. I'll suggest what is missing here: You're presupposing that some event is "supernatural" because science hasn't tackled it yet.

Hmmm.....half-true, I am presupposing the possibility of a supernatural cause, rather than outright dismissal. I would be incorrect to attribute something as supernatural without researching. I would be just as incorrect to dismiss something as natural without even bothering to research otherwise. I caught myself doing the latter recently, and it was a real eye-opener when I was wrong.

Which ones? I can't see how you go from this conclusion to the one below: (materialism).

To keep it simple, my question is, why can we think? And for each answer, ask yourself again, "why?" Are our thoughts merely the result of physical causes? Why? How? What are the consequences if this is believed?

lol, I guess that's it from me for awhile...

[charlie chong]

I am literally a magnet for this shit
stuff has followed me round since i was 16 and had an out of body experience where i viewed myself on my bed flying round the whole world in about 20 seconds and ended up back in the same spot.quantum mechanics etc might be able to explain it.after all a lot of scientists believe everything split from the same atom at the time of the big bang.the lizards don't want you to know about this stuff tho
too big a subject and i'm very tired and weary scared etc cos sometimes it feels like people are putting thoughts in my head. i have had weird shaking fits etc where it feels like people are controlling me too and have been taught things that i couldn't possibly know.i also find certain theories (cosmic consciousness etc) very easy to understand even tho i have no actual academic grounding in such subjects.
of course it could be all mental illness
i'll see what my psychiatric assessment is saying next week :twisted
i do believe very big changes in consciousness are happening tho as we speak cos stuff is snowballing very quickly and i believe a big part in this is the weird growing organism we call TEH INTRANETZ

[Randorama]

Hm, the point is that they DO exist, and point to certain truths. The idea that 1+1=2 is not a physical scientific proof, it is simply an intangible concept.

This is non-sense, sorry. "1+1=2" is a notation invented to represent that if you take one unit of a given type (say, apples) and another unit of the same type, then you get two units of the same type. Math represents operations, it does not prove that such operations exist in the world, so to speak, nor it grants that the representations are correct. It is a very tangible concept though: you've written on an internet forum.

They can't even prove I think it. Any phenomena that occurs because of these thoughts merely presupposes these truths, but it doesn't physically prove the truths exist.

This is also incorrect. We can make an FMRI scan of people tasting and enjoying cakes, so we can show that somewhere inside the brain these mental states have a physical realization. and this:

I can like anime art more than the artwork of Michaelangelo....but no one can prove I'm incorrect for thinking so.

This has nothing to do with science. Science is not about telling people if they're incorrect or not or having feelings. That's the business of clergy and fascists, and those guys don't buy much science, as it may undermines their "truths". Science is about understanding how things work, including feelings. Well, this is recent, pioneering science, but still science.

Sorry, this is a basic thing you're misunderstanding on purpose.

And the below:

Logic: I can reason that if I know how to read, someone taught me how to read. The fact that I can reason is a truth.

See above, comment on notation.

Math: 2+2=4. It's a notion, an intangible truth.

Ethics: Murder is bad. It's an intangible idea. Some sickos may disagree, but it is still a moral judgment that exists, and affects our daily lives.

Your notion of intangibility is fallacious, sorry. I can't stick a finger in your head, but these mental processes happen and can be monitored. Say, you are *reporting* them.

Beauty: the beauty of an object cannot be scientifically proven. I think Marilyn Monroe is unattractive....pinup artists seem to disagree. Science can't PROVE she is beautiful. Eww.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Emotions and beliefs are mental states, and mental states need individuals to be entertained. If a person reports that he/she finds something beautiful, then that's a fact. She has a mental state, plain and simple. Beauty without observers is, well, non-sense, so no need to prove non-sense.

Science: Its very methodology is a metaphysical enterprise, and presupposes many things we cannot absolutely know because we lack omniscience.

A scientist may bother to define an ontology on his model of a given set of phenomena, because he needs an initial hypothesis on which are the basic elements that occur in the phenomena he observes. If a chemist observes basic reactions involving two unidentified substances, he needs to say that the temporary model has at least two substances. Beyond that, there's no presupposing of other elements, if there is no proof that they exist. Models, and metaphysics of any sort, are worth a scientific shit if they can represent phenomena they purport to explain. There's no need for omniscience: models are by definition partial. If we were to do science once we knew all the basic bits of reality, we would not do science in the first place. This comment is really a disaster.

(ie. is the speed of light REALLY constant throughout the universe?). Our lack of omniscience is precisely why science is limited.

Science is about progress, increasing the limits of what can be correctly explained and predicted. If a scientist can't prove something, he should shut up about it, too. Other "disciplines" can be unlimited by being "not even wrong". The supernatural, and other non-sense for the mentally ottenebrated, is not limited because it lacks any tools to account zip (first), and thus improve its own accounts (second).

Perception: "I can see. Oh crap, someone just poked my eyes out, I'm blind!" An earthworm, if it could comprehend my language, would wonder what I'm babbling about...it has no eyes. Still, our perception exists, and our interpretation of physical senses, even if we can't prove it to an earthworm.[/list]

This is another non-sensical comment. Little is known beyond perception, in Psychology, so it is hardly a point of contention. I am taking offense that you're making this comment, since it is really about a straw-man.

To simplify...more exists than what is tangible and physical. Could the possibility that something more exists in the intangible realm be that farfetched?

Science is about finding this "something more". But see above on what this "something more" appears to be. And, quite frankly, "tangible" by human fingers? Scientific tools go well beyond that. I am also taking offense at the naivety of this comment.

When would rape be morally acceptable? In a hypothetical situation:

If a bunch of aliens came down and said "we're going to destroy all of humanity if you don't rape a little girl," would rape be acceptable?

Yes? How about 2 girls? Yes? How about 2,000 girls?

Or, is slavery ever morally good? If the U.S. stated that slavery was a necessity to keep the nation going...is it okay?

You can just show that, no matter the context, these acts can be measured as being at moral acceptability 0 (i.e. not acceptable). It makes things more precise. Are you inferring that measuring things and proving that certain acts are "immoral", with *standards that can be accessed and understood by everyone* is equivalent to justifying any act? This is also deplorable.

Hmmm.....half-true, I am presupposing the possibility of a supernatural cause, rather than outright dismissal. I would be incorrect to attribute something as supernatural without researching. I would be just as incorrect to dismiss something as natural without even bothering to research otherwise. I caught myself doing the latter recently, and it was a real eye-opener when I was wrong.

There are no supernatural things, there's the unknown, and a goal of scientific enterprises is to understand how it works, rather than add random human-like forces to magically "explain" events and give a human-centric account of everything. The world is more than your hard nose.

...And sorry for the spirited tone (not really).

[spl]

I'm a very skeptical person and don't really believe in all this stuff, however I did have an experience years back which scared me.

I was sleeping one night and had a nightmare. All I remember seeing was pools of blood on white tiles like a bathroom floor. I thought this was very strange because in my dreams/nightmares there is always a "story" as such but this was different - it was just visions of blood. Spurts of blood coming out over and over.

Anyway I woke up in the morning and my mother informed me that my grandpa had passed away during the night on the other side of the world. Scariest part was that he passed in his bathroom floor covered in blood just like the visions I had seen.

I have never had anything else happen to me like this in my life so I put it down to being a coincidence but like X-files.. I want to believe..