Which is better 2D shooter, Dimahoo or Mars Matrix

[null1024]

Go play Mars Matrix. Dimahoo is good, but it isn't Mars Matrix, and that's what matters. ;D

[Wenchang]

If playing for score is a priority, go with Mars Matrix. But if you just want to play for survival, I think Dimahoo would be the better choice.

[hermosaguy]

Mars Matrix! It might take a bit to get the timing down but its a blast!

[ZenErik]

I'm admittedly awful at shmups and have yet to even finish Mars Matrix, but I still love it. Definitely in my top 3 DC shmups and probably top 5 DC games overall.

[Deca]

Is Mars Matrix supposed to be easy to clear? Am I just playing it wrong?

[Hagane]

I don't really get the profound hatred for Dimahoo. Maybe it's because I haven't really attempted to score high, but I think its a really solid shooter. Is remembering what items each enemy drops the only issue?

[Deca]

I don't really get the profound hatred for Dimahoo. Maybe it's because I haven't really attempted to score high, but I think its a really solid shooter. Is remembering what items each enemy drops the only issue?

That and the scoring system in generally is incredibly intrusive into how you play the game. Oddly rigid for scoring runs as well, from what I understand, considering its a Raizing game. I think it's a fine game but definitely understand why others don't like it.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I havnt really spent much time with Raizings games, they chew me up and spit me back out as a quivering wreck. However Mars Matrix is a lot of fun, as is a lot of fun playing for score as its chaining system is very forgiving.

I spent a number of months playing the MAME version playing for score and the 1CC at the same time. I ended up burning myself out just shy of the 1CC. I really ought to go back and try beating it now ive swopped from analog sticks to dpads.

[ptoing]

I don't really get the profound hatred for Dimahoo. Maybe it's because I haven't really attempted to score high, but I think its a really solid shooter. Is remembering what items each enemy drops the only issue?

That and the scoring system in generally is incredibly intrusive into how you play the game. Oddly rigid for scoring runs as well, from what I understand, considering its a Raizing game. I think it's a fine game but definitely understand why others don't like it.

Also it has really evil and very fast patterns in the later levels. The patterns feel more Psikyo to me in a way I have to say.

[Hagane]

That and the scoring system in generally is incredibly intrusive into how you play the game. Oddly rigid for scoring runs as well, from what I understand, considering its a Raizing game. I think it's a fine game but definitely understand why others don't like it.

Yeah but I'd like an exact rundown on what makes the game bad. I mostly see "you have to memorize the items" but that doesn't seem very convincing. I'm sure there must be something else I'm not seeing everybody else already knows, since I haven't really played the game that much.

[RNGmaster]

I didn't know that higher level charges got you better stuff, and charge timings seemed way too anal playing as almost every character.

And as soon as I heard that certain items only appear when you have x amount of bombs I just stopped playing then and there.

[Moniker]

I haven't been able to get over the polarity switching. It just feels so clunky. I feel like if it weren't tied to charge shots, and switched back and forth at will, the game would be orders of magnitude better. I still like the game as a whole, I guess it's just something to get used to.

Anyone feel like hacking the game? While you're at it you can remove the voiceovers from DonPachi and make me a version of Recca that only has vulcan shot and search options.

[Estebang]

Isn't there a hack supported in GareMAME that adds a visible rank meter to Garegga?

[Moniker]

Isn't there a hack supported in GareMAME that adds a visible rank meter to Garegga?

I know there's a cheat.dat that was posted here awhile ago that displayed rank, amongst other things, for the Yagawa Raizing games. Thread was titled "raizing rank tools" or summuch. Very useful.

[Randorama]

That and the scoring system in generally is incredibly intrusive into how you play the game. Oddly rigid for scoring runs as well, from what I understand, considering its a Raizing game. I think it's a fine game but definitely understand why others don't like it.

Well, to be fair, Battle Garegga is the only Raizing game that is quite flexible, in terms of scoring strategies (well, VERY flexible). Even the first two Mahous had quite specific strategies for scoring (i.e. milking bombs). Batrider and Bakraid are also very rigid, Sokyugurentai requires very lame bomb milking, and Brave Blade is not shy from heavy milking too, I remember.

More to the point: Dimahoo is a game that requires a game-long plan, which is furthermore very rigid. For instance, there is one specific item which can be obtained by bombing the final part of the third stage's turtle-carrier with the FIRST bomb in stock. If you use a bomb beforehand, you can forget the item for the rest of the game. This is particularly annoying, since Stage 4 has those treasure boxes that will release missing items if destroyed with a charge, but will not release this item. I still like it a lot, but I must say that it is a very black-and-white affair, if one wants to play it for score.

[Deca]

Batrider and Bakraid are also very rigid,

I have very little knowledge of Bakraid, but how do you figure Batrider is extremely rigid? I can think of several routes through the first stage that result in similar scores, and even more variations counting in different ships and different teams. I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, and I'm completely open to being wrong here, but I've always felt like Batrider was a lot looser in terms of your scoring and general route through the game. As long as you get the secret medals, destroy the right scenery, and use the proper attack type to kill different enemies, you're not bound to an incredibly strict path relying on frame-perfect kill timing and ship positioning to score decently.

I suppose I can see where you're coming from if you're referring to everything having multiple point values based on weapon used and aura kills being necessary in many places to optimize scoring. As far as I know Garegga didn't discern what you used to kill most of the in stage enemies, right? Mostly just boss destruction bonuses relied on shot type?

As an aside, where is most of the flexibility in Garegga? Not trying to contradict you but I've always tended to play it pretty rigidly, albeit with slightly different strategies for different ships. I don't have near as much experience with it as I do with Batrider but I've been playing it a lot more in the past several months, I feel like my understanding of the game has increased significantly but I'm still not as comfortable with it as I'd like to be.

[Randorama]

Batrider and Bakraid are also very rigid,

I have very little knowledge of Bakraid, but how do you figure Batrider is extremely rigid? I can think of several routes through the first stage that result in similar scores, and even more variations counting in different ships and different teams. I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, and I'm completely open to being wrong here, but I've always felt like Batrider was a lot looser in terms of your scoring and general route through the game. As long as you get the secret medals, destroy the right scenery, and use the proper attack type to kill different enemies, you're not bound to an incredibly strict path relying on frame-perfect kill timing and ship positioning to score decently.

I should have exaggerated my statement. Batrider is quite rigid, more than extremely. You need to play with a Mahou-Garegga-Batrider team in order to trigger ALL the secret bosses, milk a lot secret and normal bosses, and in general do certain things at a certain time. Medalling and most of the stages' layouts are relatively elastic, though.

I suppose I can see where you're coming from if you're referring to everything having multiple point values based on weapon used and aura kills being necessary in many places to optimize scoring. As far as I know Garegga didn't discern what you used to kill most of the in stage enemies, right? Mostly just boss destruction bonuses relied on shot type?

In both Garegga and Batrider the number of hits determines the total score. Aura attacks land more hits per second, hence more points. In Garegga there's no aura but most weapons can land way more hits than normal shots. In this aspects the differences are small.

As an aside, where is most of the flexibility in Garegga? Not trying to contradict you but I've always tended to play it pretty rigidly, albeit with slightly different strategies for different ships. I don't have near as much experience with it as I do with Batrider but I've been playing it a lot more in the past several months, I feel like my understanding of the game has increased significantly but I'm still not as comfortable with it as I'd like to be.

I'd say that a macro difference is terms of bottle-necks, in the two games.

In Garegga there are two (well, three) bottle-necks. First, in order to score well on the flamingoes, one has two suicide three times before that and stock as many bombs as possible. Then, one must handle the flamingoes zone in a very precise way. Second, stage 6 can be handled in different ways, but one should time two deaths during the stage, with related extends. A third optional bottleneck is the end of stage 4. If one wants to get the medals from the structures before the boss, one has to destroy the green tanks before the boss in a certain way.

Batrider has more bottle-necks. Too lazy to check them out, but I believe that there are at least five or six key points in which one has to do very specific actions to do them well, and at least two or three are connected. Again, the way the secret bosses work is quite complex and rigid.

Bakraid is one notch more rigid, but I can't remember much beyond a very strict timing of bomb usage and suicides.

[burgerkingdiamond]

wtf. How the hell are you supposed to even think about "playing" the game when you have all that BS to think about.

[jepjepjep]

I see what Randorama is saying regarding Batrider being more rigid. You have to plan out suicides for rank control along with keeping certain types of ships alive to trigger the extra bosses.

In all fairness though, those strategies are for high-level play for score. You could say the same level of rigidity exists for most Cave games. High level play in the Dodonpachi games requires very strict routes in order to keep the chain going and punishes you for using bombs.

For casual or 1cc play, I find the Raizing games provide more freedom in play style with a greater ship selection and the dynamic rank system. I feel like no two runs are ever the same. Dimahoo for me is great because I don't worry about item collection. The game is hard enough for me just playing for a clear. Maybe my opinion would change if I was a better player .

[Erppo]

wtf. How the hell are you supposed to even think about "playing" the game when you have all that BS to think about.

You usually have to think ahead when playing games. What exactly was weird about that?

[Randorama]

In all fairness though, those strategies are for high-level play for score. You could say the same level of rigidity exists for most Cave games. High level play in the Dodonpachi games requires very strict routes in order to keep the chain going and punishes you for using bombs.

Yes, all modern shmups tend to be rigid when played for score. The Raizing-internal difference is that their games became stricter and stricter, when played for score. Dimahoo peaked this trend by having a game that is really strict, if you care about the top-level scores (say, counterstop). I actually remember that mid-range scores (20-30 M) were possible without getting too much gray hair, thanks to the treasure chest trick.

[/quote]
For casual or 1cc play, I find the Raizing games provide more freedom in play style with a greater ship selection and the dynamic rank system. I feel like no two runs are ever the same. Dimahoo for me is great because I don't worry about item collection. The game is hard enough for me just playing for a clear. Maybe my opinion would change if I was a better player .[/quote]


I agree, Dimahoo is a fine game if played for difficulty alone. It should be a challenge for a good skills player even at low rank. I think that it is the hardest "modern" game (i.e. late '90s onwards) for a plain, just survival 1-CC.

[Deca]

wtf. How the hell are you supposed to even think about "playing" the game when you have all that BS to think about.

I find all that "BS" easier to deal with than DDPs chain mechanics. You don't really start out playing Batrider with everything in mind, you focus on specific aspects until you're comfortable with them and layer new ones on as you continue playing. I just find it a much more enjoyable skill progression. As opposed to learning each stage's path in turn in DDP, you're adding on whole new approaches and focuses over entire runs. Instead of having to drill the stages one at a time you can take it in full runs and see your paths and approaches evolve as you implement new things (until you get into absolute optimization, at which point I imagine you'd start drilling specific parts, but that's true of any game).

I just find it more dynamic and engaging, personally. I can understand why people like games like DDP as well.

[Ruldra]

For instance, there is one specific item which can be obtained by bombing the final part of the third stage's turtle-carrier with the FIRST bomb in stock. If you use a bomb beforehand, you can forget the item for the rest of the game. This is particularly annoying, since Stage 4 has those treasure boxes that will release missing items if destroyed with a charge, but will not release this item.

WTF? What item is this? And what exactly do you need to bomb?

I was working on a full list of who-drops-what and this is the first time I heard about such an item.

[Bananamatic]

isn't it the dragonfly or something?(from bombing the metal doors, while the wooden door gives a lv8 chest and you can take both with one bomb)

[dunpeal2064]

wtf. How the hell are you supposed to even think about "playing" the game when you have all that BS to think about.

Well all of that is to optimize score, something you should only be doing once you are familiar with the game.

I fail those "bottle-necks" in Garegga, but I still thoroughly enjoy the game.

[Randorama]

WTF? What item is this? And what exactly do you need to bomb?

I was working on a full list of who-drops-what and this is the first time I heard about such an item.

You need to bomb some part of the land carrier before it even appears on the screen. I don't remember what it is, but it should be the Dragonfly, or another Capcom item. I am pretty sure that you *can't* get it if you're not using your first bomb. I also don't remember ever getting it from treasure chests. The "recovery" conditions for those items (i.e. getting them from chests) should be very strict.

[burgerkingdiamond]

wtf. How the hell are you supposed to even think about "playing" the game when you have all that BS to think about.

I find all that "BS" easier to deal with than DDPs chain mechanics. You don't really start out playing Batrider with everything in mind, you focus on specific aspects until you're comfortable with them and layer new ones on as you continue playing. I just find it a much more enjoyable skill progression. As opposed to learning each stage's path in turn in DDP, you're adding on whole new approaches and focuses over entire runs. Instead of having to drill the stages one at a time you can take it in full runs and see your paths and approaches evolve as you implement new things (until you get into absolute optimization, at which point I imagine you'd start drilling specific parts, but that's true of any game).

I just find it more dynamic and engaging, personally. I can understand why people like games like DDP as well.

well I don't like DDP scoring either. All the stuff in Raizing games related to good scoring just blows my mind. It's guess they are more "cerebral" games. My favorite shmups is Futari Original because while you have to memorize levels to some degree, the concept of scoring is very simple in principle, yet difficult to execute.

I'm not trying start an anti Raizing rant. I enjoy the games for pure survival play.

[Ruldra]

You need to bomb some part of the land carrier before it even appears on the screen. I don't remember what it is, but it should be the Dragonfly, or another Capcom item. I am pretty sure that you *can't* get it if you're not using your first bomb. I also don't remember ever getting it from treasure chests. The "recovery" conditions for those items (i.e. getting them from chests) should be very strict.

If it's the Dragonfly, then I can confirm that you can get it without using your first bomb. I always use one bomb at Dratrion (stage 2 boss) and I never had problems finding the Dragonfly in the same run.

[Hagane]

Hm, after reading Randorama's post, some item requirements do seem to be extremely anal.

Even the first two Mahous had quite specific strategies for scoring (i.e. milking bombs).

Could you elaborate on this? For Shippu, specifically.

[jepjepjep]

Hm, after reading Randorama's post, some item requirements do seem to be extremely anal.

Even the first two Mahous had quite specific strategies for scoring (i.e. milking bombs).

Could you elaborate on this? For Shippu, specifically.

I'm curious to hear about this too. I've always thought of Mahou Daisakusen as a straightforward, no-frills shooter where there's not much to scoring other than surviving longer.