Are CAVE games too hard?

[DrTrouserPlank]

Well, I haven't read all this thread, so I'm not sure where all the hostility is coming from(nerd rage?). But maybe it's deserved....I dunno.

But the thing is, if Akai Katana is "too hard"..well, you need more practice. If the frustration is too much, then you should probably just quit. I mean, you're gonna get frustrated. If you can't handle that, then you might want to play some easier games.

Have you tried DeathSmiles? You can choose pretty easy difficulties on that, and it's mondo-fun.

I've got Deathsmiles and whilst I like the game it has one major flaw. No decent practice mode to allow you to skip to the last bosses, and seeing as the two stages previous are pretty long (and the rest of the game is comparatively easy) it makes learning the difficult last bosses very tiresome.

To address random other points. I don't agree that shin mode is any harder. In fact I believe the last credit I played on it (having only played arcade) was a no miss all the way to level 4 (which is unusual). Granted there's more shit on the screen, but the wider viewing angle gives you more time and room to deal with it, and you can wipe the majority of it out making it a non-issue.

The futari video is all well and good, but if you want to pick apart everything I say then why are you bombing sections that you claim are easily avoidable?

I find people's ranking of difficulty on these games bizarre. I've been told (or given the impression) Galuda 2 and DOJ are more difficult and that things like DFK 1.5 are easy.

My experience is that Galuda is no worse than anything else I've played, possibly even easier due to the slo-mo and the lower bullet speed. The increased bullet density is not an issue.
Played DFK. Level 1 is about equivalent to DOJ stage 3 so whoever said that was easy is having a laugh.
Katana's stages are not too bad. The end of stage 5 is donkey balls, and the last two bosses are completely out of place. It's similar to deathsmiles' wonky difficulty.
Futari has a more consistent difficulty throughout the game and it's progression is at least more linear. Anomalies such as the stage 4 bosses being much easier than stage 3 are annoying, and Larsa is complete bobbins.

[Skykid]

To address random other points. I don't agree that shin mode is any harder. In fact I believe the last credit I played on it (having only played arcade) was a no miss all the way to level 4 (which is unusual). Granted there's more shit on the screen, but the wider viewing angle gives you more time and room to deal with it, and you can wipe the majority of it out making it a non-issue.

You don't know how to play the game.

The futari video is all well and good, but if you want to pick apart everything I say then why are you bombing sections that you claim are easily avoidable?

It's call strategy. You need one.

My experience is that Galuda is no worse than anything else I've played, possibly even easier due to the slo-mo and the lower bullet speed. The increased bullet density is not an issue.

You know that slo-mo is primarily for scoring, right?

Played DFK. Level 1 is about equivalent to DOJ stage 3 so whoever said that was easy is having a laugh.

You don't know how to play the game. Jesus. Try pressing the Hyper button and see what happens.

Futari has a more consistent difficulty throughout the game and it's progression is at least more linear. Anomalies such as the stage 4 bosses being much easier than stage 3 are annoying, and Larsa is complete bobbins.

You unravelled your own statement. If anything Futari has completely inconsistent difficulty, stage 3 case in point.

Dead horse: flogging.

You're not getting it, it's not going in. All your claims are unfounded rubbish. Dedicate some time to learning these games from the ground up, and more importantly, learn to score, as that's the primary function of all those shiny points you keep seeing and attributes you keep ignoring. It will give you a better understanding of how to tackle the game.
Based on the comments you make I'm having a hard time believing you actually reached Larsa on a credit. I'm more inclined to believe that, by virtue of credit feeding, you decided Futari was impossible and then told everyone you reached her just so you would have a leg to stand on in arguing your side.

It's all very well for people on this forum to say "no, Cave games are comparatively really easy!", but remember a lot of us have played these games for thousands of hours.

Not necessarily. I'm sure most of the Cave titles I successfully cleared amounted to far fewer hours than the average casual gamer is willing to throw into the online mode of his new 360 FPS. I cleared Dodonpachi in about 5 credits of getting the PCB (survival focussed of course.)

[Elixir]

You have encountered Skykid, one of the midbosses in Spergtopia. You'll have to have put some points into LUK and dodge most of his argument entirely if you wish to progress.

[DrTrouserPlank]

To address random other points. I don't agree that shin mode is any harder. In fact I believe the last credit I played on it (having only played arcade) was a no miss all the way to level 4 (which is unusual). Granted there's more shit on the screen, but the wider viewing angle gives you more time and room to deal with it, and you can wipe the majority of it out making it a non-issue.

You don't know how to play the game.

How conveniently dismissive.

The futari video is all well and good, but if you want to pick apart everything I say then why are you bombing sections that you claim are easily avoidable?

It's call strategy. You need one.

It's called copping out of sections that people claim are easily avoidable

My experience is that Galuda is no worse than anything else I've played, possibly even easier due to the slo-mo and the lower bullet speed. The increased bullet density is not an issue.

You know that slo-mo is primarily for scoring, right?

Thanks for pointing that out. I'd never have guessed otherwise. I will however use it for survival if I wish to

Played DFK. Level 1 is about equivalent to DOJ stage 3 so whoever said that was easy is having a laugh.

You don't know how to play the game. Jesus. Try pressing the Hyper button and see what happens.

What does it give you? 1 auto bomb? Irrespective my point about the relative difficulty stands regardless.

Futari has a more consistent difficulty throughout the game and it's progression is at least more linear. Anomalies such as the stage 4 bosses being much easier than stage 3 are annoying, and Larsa is complete bobbins.

You unravelled your own statement. If anything Futari has completely inconsistent difficulty, stage 3 case in point.

You're disagreeing with me whilst agreeing at the same time. That's quite an achievement

Dead horse: flogging.

You're not getting it, it's not going in. All your claims are unfounded rubbish. Dedicate some time to learning these games from the ground up, and more importantly, learn to score, as that's the primary function of all those shiny points you keep seeing and attributes you keep ignoring. It will give you a better understanding of how to tackle the game.
Based on the comments you make I'm having a hard time believing you actually reached Larsa on a credit. I'm more inclined to believe that, by virtue of credit feeding, you decided Futari was impossible and then told everyone you reached her just so you would have a leg to stand on in arguing your side.

That's quite a little conspiracy you are writing yourself there. My S5Boss is at position 244 on the leaderboard. Tag: AgentKillmore. I suppose you are going to tell me that's not my tag next?

It's all very well for people on this forum to say "no, Cave games are comparatively really easy!", but remember a lot of us have played these games for thousands of hours.

Not necessarily. I'm sure most of the Cave titles I successfully cleared amounted to far fewer hours than the average casual gamer is willing to throw into the online mode of his new 360 FPS. I cleared Dodonpachi in about 5 credits of getting the PCB (survival focussed of course.)

[Elixir]

No, not like that! Quote entrapment only lowers defense for 2010 and 2011 noobs!

Will DrTrouserPlank ever 1cc Futari? Will Skykid ever write anything I'll read? Find out next time on, system11...

[DrTrouserPlank]

More Akai Katana for me.

It's hellishly addictive with the same bad after-taste that a smack addict gets after shooting up.

[MX7]

@Skykid: but I'm guessing you've been playing arcade games for many years. All of this experience adds up. So I still think it would be unfair to compare someone like yourself to someone who only really has experience of console games

While I would say I'm quite good at 2D shooters, I absolutely suck at FPS games to the point that I can't even play supposedly easy ones like Halo and Goldeneye

[NTSC-J]

MX7, I agree that Cave games are indeed very difficult and can take years depending on your goals, but the problem we're having here with dude is that he seems to think that beating these games is a luck of the draw, that there's no way one can figure out how to clear them with any sort of consistency, and that's just bull.

The thing I like about shooters is how in control the player is. Any sort of change in the game is based on what I'm doing. If I get the counter up high it gets harder, if I no-miss to the last stage it gets even crazier, and if I die a lot like dude seems to like doing then it gets easier. I control the whole show.

Take one of my favorites, Gunbird 2. When I get to the 2-6 boss's second form I position myself at the bottom of the screen in front of his left arm. He fires a blazing fast pattern and I tap to the left slowly, reach the edge of the screen and wait for his lasers to fire, then with the next pattern I tap to the right 4 times while the super-fast bullets just fly by me.

Every fucking time.

And it works.

Every fucking time.

And then I win the game.

[cools]

Then you play a good game and get challenged with at least some unpredictability.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Then you play a good game and get challenged with at least some unpredictability.

How many shooters have unpredictability in store? I found Warning Forever somewhat unpredictable, but its unpredictability was about variety rather than extra challenge. Same with all other algorithm-based shooters I liked.
Multiplayer is another kettle of fish of course.

[MR_Soren]

Nah, I've really had it with akai katana now. It's rage inducingly stupid in so many ways.

If the game induces in rage in you, perhaps the problem is with you and not the game.

You are expecting too much too quickly. It takes time to get good at these. With proper planning, strategy, and practice, seemingly impossible sections become quite possible. You seem too angry and uncommitted to learn. Maybe this isn't for you, but stop trying to pass it off as flawed game design.

[cools]

Then you play a good game and get challenged with at least some unpredictability.

How many shooters have unpredictability in store? I found Warning Forever somewhat unpredictable, but its unpredictability was about variety rather than extra challenge. Same with all other algorithm-based shooters I liked.
Multiplayer is another kettle of fish of course.

The example given describes patterns I'm not a fan of, whereby you could dodge them without even looking at the screen, simply performing the same motions every time.

[Elixir]

Then you play a good game and get challenged with at least some unpredictability.

How many shooters have unpredictability in store? I found Warning Forever somewhat unpredictable, but its unpredictability was about variety rather than extra challenge. Same with all other algorithm-based shooters I liked.
Multiplayer is another kettle of fish of course.

ZUN -kind of- does this with Touhou. The bullets aren't random themselves, but the patterns are aimed differently (think presets), although there's usually a "perfect path" to every pattern.

[Skykid]

@Skykid: but I'm guessing you've been playing arcade games for many years. All of this experience adds up. So I still think it would be unfair to compare someone like yourself to someone who only really has experience of console games

While I would say I'm quite good at 2D shooters, I absolutely suck at FPS games to the point that I can't even play supposedly easy ones like Halo and Goldeneye

Nah not really, I mamed it a few times and dabbled in the Saturn version a long while back. I put it down to what I'd learned collectively from other shmups actually, the experience sort of made it easier to navigate.

Will Skykid ever write anything I'll read? Find out next time on, system11...

Lets hope not. Then we would be dangerously close to having a sliver of common ground.
And at least this way I can keep calling you a cunt and you'll never know.

[burgerkingdiamond]

SHMUPS VENDETTA!!!

[DrTrouserPlank]

@Skykid: but I'm guessing you've been playing arcade games for many years. All of this experience adds up. So I still think it would be unfair to compare someone like yourself to someone who only really has experience of console games

While I would say I'm quite good at 2D shooters, I absolutely suck at FPS games to the point that I can't even play supposedly easy ones like Halo and Goldeneye

Nah not really, I mamed it a few times and dabbled in the Saturn version a long while back. I put it down to what I'd learned collectively from other shmups actually, the experience sort of made it easier to navigate.

Will Skykid ever write anything I'll read? Find out next time on, system11...

Lets hope not. Then we would be dangerously close to having a sliver of common ground.
And at least this way I can keep calling you a cunt and you'll never know.

I think you've probably let the cat out of the bag.

[dunpeal2064]

DrPlank (as I now call you)

Do you really consider DFK stage 1 to be harder or equally hard as DOJ stage 3? That just baffles me.

Are you aware that the "X" button will activate Hyper mode, allowing you to shoot the bullets out of the air, which will even add to your chain?

I could see thinking the game was difficult if I didn't know about that, but with that, its much more managable.

Personally, playing either Strong or Bomb, I have never NOT made it to stage 5. And trust me, that is nothing impressive with the amount of Autobombs I end up using.

Or were you perhaps talking about Black Label? That would make much more sense.

[Skykid]

Or were you perhaps talking about Black Label? That would make much more sense.

It wouldn't, there's not that much difference. You can give DFK stage one to a complete novice and, as long as you've told them what the buttons do, they'll walk it.

Just give up. TP can't be bothered to invest enough time into a game to learn what the basic buttons are before writing it off. That basically says it all.

[dunpeal2064]

Or were you perhaps talking about Black Label? That would make much more sense.

It wouldn't, there's not that much difference. You can give DFK stage one to a complete novice and, as long as you've told them what the buttons do, they'll walk it.

Just give up. TP can't be bothered to invest enough time into a game to learn what the basic buttons are before writing it off. That basically says it all.

Ah. My copy of BL is in the mail, I just assumed it was much more difficult from the start. The only time I played it, I only had one credit at it, and I actually didn't know what the buttons did. Looking forward to learning it though.

Gah, I don't know why I keep trying. I guess I'm easily troll-able.

[DrTrouserPlank]

DrPlank (as I now call you)

Do you really consider DFK stage 1 to be harder or equally hard as DOJ stage 3? That just baffles me.

Are you aware that the "X" button will activate Hyper mode, allowing you to shoot the bullets out of the air, which will even add to your chain?

I could see thinking the game was difficult if I didn't know about that, but with that, its much more managable.

Personally, playing either Strong or Bomb, I have never NOT made it to stage 5. And trust me, that is nothing impressive with the amount of Autobombs I end up using.

Or were you perhaps talking about Black Label? That would make much more sense.

Yeah I didn't really spend much time with it because it's not my main focus. I just installed it and gave it a quick spin and then put akai katana back in because it brings me untold joy.

[Elixir]

@Skykid: but I'm guessing you've been playing arcade games for many years. All of this experience adds up. So I still think it would be unfair to compare someone like yourself to someone who only really has experience of console games

While I would say I'm quite good at 2D shooters, I absolutely suck at FPS games to the point that I can't even play supposedly easy ones like Halo and Goldeneye

Nah not really, I mamed it a few times and dabbled in the Saturn version a long while back. I put it down to what I'd learned collectively from other shmups actually, the experience sort of made it easier to navigate.

Will Skykid ever write anything I'll read? Find out next time on, system11...

Lets hope not. Then we would be dangerously close to having a sliver of common ground.
And at least this way I can keep calling you a cunt and you'll never know.

I think you've probably let the cat out of the bag.

Skykid inflicts -10 INT when provoked.

[dunpeal2064]

Wouldn't losing -10 be a good thing?

Ahh, the mighty white neenja edit. Nice, Elixer

[Skykid]

Ah. My copy of BL is in the mail, I just assumed it was much more difficult from the start. The only time I played it, I only had one credit at it, and I actually didn't know what the buttons did. Looking forward to learning it though.

Gah, I don't know why I keep trying. I guess I'm easily troll-able.

Sorry dude my bad. As you were mentioning the comparison between DFK stg1 and DOJ stg 3 I assumed you were talking about DOJ BL.

DFK BL is harder right off the bat than vanilla, yes. But again, if you learn the buttons and play purely for survival it's not difficult at all. If you abuse the tons of hypers you get and use them just for survival, it's a breeze, as using C shot makes you almost invincible.

[emphatic]

6 pages of this crap. Though a thread where Elixir is making jests is good in my book. Or is it? Please make a new thread to discuss. Someone?

[Elixir]

Ah. My copy of BL is in the mail, I just assumed it was much more difficult from the start. The only time I played it, I only had one credit at it, and I actually didn't know what the buttons did. Looking forward to learning it though.

Gah, I don't know why I keep trying. I guess I'm easily troll-able.

Sorry dude my bad. As you were mentioning the comparison between DFK stg1 and DOJ stg 3 I assumed you were talking about DOJ BL.

DFK BL is harder right off the bat than vanilla, yes. But again, if you learn the buttons and play purely for survival it's not difficult at all. If you abuse the tons of hypers you get and use them just for survival, it's a breeze, as using C shot makes you almost invincible.

DOJBL is significantly easier than DOJWL in every regard, primarily because it feeds you with hypers. Now give me by fucking 10 INT back, how am I expected to cast Elixism with insufficient mana?

[dunpeal2064]

I was under the impression that DOJBL eventually exceeded WL in difficulty, but not until the loop.

Of course I have never looped it, I just remember reading that.

But as Skykid realized, I was initially talking about DFKBL

[MX7]

I was under the impression that DOJBL eventually exceeded WL in difficulty, but not until the loop.

Of course I have never looped it, I just remember reading that.

But as Skykid realized, I was initially talking about DFKBL

Yeah, the increased amount of hypers makes the first loop easier, but the increased rank this hyper usage brings makes the second loop even harder than the so called 'white label'.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I think that white is harder, but black is usually longer.... erm, what were we talking about?

[Skykid]

Ah. My copy of BL is in the mail, I just assumed it was much more difficult from the start. The only time I played it, I only had one credit at it, and I actually didn't know what the buttons did. Looking forward to learning it though.

Gah, I don't know why I keep trying. I guess I'm easily troll-able.

Sorry dude my bad. As you were mentioning the comparison between DFK stg1 and DOJ stg 3 I assumed you were talking about DOJ BL.

DFK BL is harder right off the bat than vanilla, yes. But again, if you learn the buttons and play purely for survival it's not difficult at all. If you abuse the tons of hypers you get and use them just for survival, it's a breeze, as using C shot makes you almost invincible.

This is all getting confusing.

DOJBL is significantly easier than DOJWL in every regard, primarily because it feeds you with hypers. Now give me by fucking 10 INT back, how am I expected to cast Elixism with insufficient mana?

That's a complete myth. "In every regard?" How do you mean? Bosses being less resilient? Slower bullets? Fewer enemies?
DOJBL is a touch easier because hypers can be earned slightly more rapidly, but it's hardly significantly easier and the extend ceiling is much higher.

[Erppo]

Slower bullets?

This. Seriously, play them after each other and see low rank BL move at a snail's pace compared to WL. Even the loop is relatively pretty easy in BL if the rank stays low. Also always having a hyper around to save your ass is a big thing too.