The future of Cave

[Siren2011]

Ibara...beats you like a punk, but you keep asking for more - thinking "It'll be different this time" - like a battered wife....

LOL! That is the most spot on description of Ibara since I heard a fellow member say "It's kinda like an S&M relationship between the player and the game."

But seriously, "things will go differently this time" is the exact thought that runs through my head every time I play it.

Dangun Feveron on the smartphone? No way in hell.
The game would just fit perfectly well on XBLA.

It would also fit perfectly well inside my garbage disposal. Feveron's art style has as much charm as a rabid racoon. I can't click with a game if the world it's set in looks like boogers and shit. The chaining doesn't interest me much, either. I'd much rather play Ketsui (proximity based scoring, FTW!), Daioujou (hypers keep the game fresh and rewarding, plus it feels like Garegga at times, which is awesome as hell.), Guwange (the shikigami idea is implemented perfectly with the mechanics. And contrary to what some here will say, the scoring is addictive, deep, and satisfying. I love how it's impossible to separate the scoring from playing for survival, and I love even more that there are multiple phases with added properties for higher scoring opportunities as you get your chain into the higher numbers.) or Espgaluda arrange (slowing down the action and cramming as many bullets on screen as possible before killing the enemy never gets old.).

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

What the hell are you talking about? Dangun Feveron is like, the only good game Cave ever made besides maybe DonPachi.

[Siren2011]

I hope that wasn't sarcasm. That would be too funny.

..."Dangun is the only good Cave game", he says. Wow. rofl.

And you picked the most primitive game in the series, too. Gotta love crazy internet people.

EDIT: Chainsaw, it's one thing to say "the vast majority of Cave's catalog doesn't interest me." It's a whole other thing to shit all over those masterpieces by basically saying they suck. Yes, all of those years of people out-doing each other in the high score thread over these games, discovering new strategies over time, and a wide gulf separating the poor players from the masters; this means nothing, because Cave sucks. lol

What other STG games do you like? Probably Space Phallus, if I had to guess. How long have you been into this hobby?

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I love how you (unintentionally) implied every other shooter besides Cave is trash right after raging at me for (jokingly) stating that Cave games trash. I also like how you implied that experience with hobbies will automatically determine your taste for them. BTW, to answer your question of what shooters I play, I don't follow a specific company or sub-genre. I play just about anything made by Taito, Toaplan, Irem, SNK, Psikyo, Konami or even Video System.

[mesh control]

Gotta love crazy internet people.

irony monster.

[Siren2011]

I love how you (unintentionally) implied every other shooter besides Cave is trash.

I love how I never said anything of the sort, intentionally or "unintentionally." You are putting words into my mouth out of sheer stupidity. Have you seen the thread where I praise Success' Psyvariar 2 to high heavens? I mean for christ sake, for someone who claims to be so perceptive as to pick up on "intentions", you sure did ignore what I implied about Raizing's Garegga in my second to last post...I have also creamed myself over Soukyuugurentai. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so just save yourself the embarrassment (and myself the trouble of responding!) by not replying.

blah blah... raging at me

You think that was raging? You don't know the meaning to the word raging. Someone who rages is pissed off. I was making fun of you. There's a big difference. In this very post I am irritated, but I'm still not raging. Someone who "rages" uses excessive swear words and merciless ad hominem attacks.

I also like how you implied that experience with hobbies will automatically determine your taste for them.

Your smarmy attacks are so badly thought out.

I mean, someone who just got into target shooting and collecting guns (to use a different example) yesterday is inexperienced. Do you honestly think he could tell you which handgun is the best out of 3 shown to him with any accuracy? Christ, considering the fact that he's still hitting everything but the critical areas on the target card (unless he's a virtuoso) would make him the worst person to ask about such matters. It would take practice on his part for him to understand all the pros and cons of each gun, and from that data, rank them. So yes, experience is the only way one's judgment can have any worth in matters such as these. Of course it could be argued that some experience is wasted, like a guy who dicks around at college for several years without a goal or purpose, taking only easy classes.

Gotta love crazy internet people.

irony monster.

King of intellectually bankrupt one liners.

[Zorator]

wall of text/dissect each statement/"you think I'm raging???"/far-out analogy/wall of text

C'mon people this is THE FUTURE OF CAVE we are talking about here, put on your serious faces on.

[NzzpNzzp]

EDIT: Chainsaw, it's one thing to say "the vast majority of Cave's catalog doesn't interest me." It's a whole other thing to shit all over those masterpieces by basically saying they suck.

Would it be okay if he said they belonged in the garbage disposal/looked like shit/had uninteresting mechanics?

Because y'know you're kinda the guy who started talking shit about Cave games here bro.

[spadgy]

Hey everyone. Let's try not to get too distracted or aggressive with one another arguing in this thread about if Cave are shit or not and who said what about what other companies are or aren't shit and who played what. It's teetering into off topic. We'll all end up arguing semantics and being bitter with one another and not get anywhere. It would be a shame if this went from an interesting thread with lively debate to a debacle of bickering.

Moving on...

Which is precisely why jettisoning their arcade R&D might be suicide. Surely it's the area which drums up the primary interest for their console release?

Hang on - I'm confused. I'm pretty sure we're agreeing! I think they'll carry on developing arcade stuff because of the reasons discussed above. I can't work out if you think we're agreeing or not Skykid. I still love you though. Deeply too.

I honestly think that without there being any official statement from Cave directly confirming this, it's probably not worth getting our suits ready for the funeral of their arcade department quite yet.

[Naryoril]

I honestly think that without there being any official statement from Cave directly confirming this, it's probably not worth getting our suits ready for the funeral of their arcade department quite yet.

Finally someone said that
I'm not too fussed about it before they officially say "we stop making arcade games"

[Skykid]

Hey everyone. Let's try not to get too distracted or aggressive with one another arguing in this thread about if Cave are shit or not and who said what about what other companies are or aren't shit and who played what. It's teetering into off topic. We'll all end up arguing semantics and being bitter with one another and not get anywhere. It would be a shame if this went from an interesting thread with lively debate to a debacle of bickering.

Moving on...

Which is precisely why jettisoning their arcade R&D might be suicide. Surely it's the area which drums up the primary interest for their console release?

Hang on - I'm confused. I'm pretty sure we're agreeing! I think they'll carry on developing arcade stuff because of the reasons discussed above. I can't work out if you think we're agreeing or not Skykid. I still love you though. Deeply too.

Oh I'm sure we are, just discussing is all.
You love me so much you left your hoodie around my place as a memento to remember you by too.

MOD EDIT: Sorry Skykid. I accidentally edited your post rather than quoting it. Made a right mess. Fixed now spadgy

[spadgy]

You love me so much you left your hoodie around my place as a memento to remember you by too.

You bloody beauty! I've been looking for that everywhere (phoned up the arcade, a pub I went to, a coach company, the train people - I thought I'd lost it before your shmupmeet).

Anyway - this is seriously, seriously off topic. Not setting much of an example am I! I'll PM you re collecting it!

[Skykid]

You love me so much you left your hoodie around my place as a memento to remember you by too.

You bloody beauty! I've been looking for that everywhere (phoned up the arcade, a pub I went to, a coach company, the train people - I thought I'd lost it before your shmupmeet).

Anyway - this is seriously, seriously off topic. Not setting much of an example am I! I'll PM you re collecting it!

If you're around you're welcome to grab it, but I'm intending to be in London to blow the last of my cash on Darius Burst next week for sure, so I don't mind bringing it down.

[cools]

Cave have just realised that everything post-Ibara was a downwards step. They peaked with it and are getting out before they lose the plot entirely.

[Skykid]

Cave have just realised that everything post-Ibara was a downwards step. They peaked with it and are getting out before they lose the plot entirely.

Espgaluda II says you lose.

[cools]

Fanboy talk

[Deca]

Man I thought Galuda2 was THE SHIT until I started trying to get serious with it. Really badass scoring system conceptually but I think there's just too much going on in it overall. (also I still have the fucking worst time dealing with ESP series hitboxes...but that's my own problem)

[Zeron]

CAVEs latest games have been pushed back by the outdated SH3 system, get on your butts CAVE and design a new one.

[Icarus]

Cave have just realised that everything post-Ibara was a downwards step. They peaked with it and are getting out before they lose the plot entirely.

Muchi Muchi Pork! says you lose.

Fixed for correctness.

[Mills]

If this is the end of Cave, where will all those talented individuals head to or hook up with?

[Sumez]

Blah blah Futari

[-Bridget-]

Being an iPad player - the games are really fun to play.

Deathsmiles is really a blast to play.

And the controls work great.

But the controls aren't what we want and they're always diluted versions conforming to the device's limitations. Gamers want more of the same. Gamers are Big Mac eaters.

Diluted versions? No. I dont know where you might have gotten that idea.

All of the same bullet patterns and difficulty and gameplay has been found in each of their games on the iOS so far; the one thing that MIGHT get people thinking it's "diluted" is that, for whatever reason, the games tend to default to a lower difficulty with fewer bullets... probably to make them easier to get into. you want the ACTUAL arcade patterns and challenge, you have to go and change the settings. But from there on, it's all the same, and it works fine.

And I say this as someone that does *alot* of gaming on the iPad. I also have *all* of Cave's 360 ports and all 4 of the old PS2 ports to compare to (and you better believe I've spent a great deal of time on both).

The ports on the iOS are just fine, really. I've personally found them to be quite grand. A version of DFK that I can play ANYWHERE, that ALSO has a new mode not found in the 360 versions? Yes, more of that, thank you.

As for the controls.... that's really entirely based on the player. I have no issues whatsoever with the controls myself; this being partly because I got used to touchscreen controls quickly, and also, it just feels kinda natural to me; I have an unusual level of coordination to begin with. I end up with the same precision on the tablet as I do with the 360 versions (or PC shmups or whatever). I can totally understand, though, that this might not be the case for everyone.

Still, I can see why these are making them money. Looking at Arcade mode for DFK, the version on the iOS is *exactly* the same as the 360 port, with the one and only difference being that hyper mode happens automatically when the bar fills (and I really dont know why this is. A strange design decision, but whatever). So, fans could either pay 60-80 for the 360 version to play that (if they have the right type of 360!).... or 5 or so for the iOS. Granted, the 360 version has the benefit of LOTS OF MODES, but that's not always the case for these 360 ports (Akai, for instance, has only 3 modes, 2 of which are basically just slightly different versions of the arcade original).


But one way or another, I really wanna see Cave do more NEW arcade games. I dont care if it's new stuff entirely, or things like more Black Label versions.... just SOMETHING.

[Skykid]

Blah blah Futari

:needs yawn emoticon:

[Erppo]

Looking at Arcade mode for DFK, the version on the iOS is *exactly* the same as the 360 port, with the one and only difference being that hyper mode happens automatically when the bar fills (and I really dont know why this is. A strange design decision, but whatever).

Considering how the game works I would say this is pretty major. Since the whole idea of the scoring system is minimizing the hyper usage, that would make obtaining non-crappy scores simply impossible. Based on the videos I have seen I think you can actually turn that off though, because the game would make no sense at all otherwise.

[Devil REI]

CAVEs latest games have been pushed back by the outdated SH3 system, get on your butts CAVE and design a new one.

They tried. The result was Deathsmiles II, the most difficult project they ever did.

[Siren2011]

DFK... Since the whole idea of the scoring system is minimizing the hyper usage...

Whaaa??

That is so freaking weird. In the previous installment, I'm pretty sure it was impossible to score really high without the consistent use of multiple hypers activated at once. Theoretically, rooted on that rule you mentioned, the best DFK players would never use hypers, which makes me wonder; if they aren't there for score, then why are they there in the first place? For their bullet cancellation properties, thus making the game easier, or do they drop the rank? Does your chain get higher in a shorter period of time when you use normal shot? (I am very unfamiliar with this game.)

[Sapz]

Basically, you want to use a couple of hypers at the start of the stage to jack up the hit counter as high as you can get it, and then stay with the hyper gauge maxed but outside of a hyper for the rest of the stage, chaining normally. If you have a full gauge but are not in a hyper, a bunch of multipliers are factored into your chain value starting at x2 for 500 hits and maxing at x7 at 10,000 hits.

Of course, the nice thing about this system compared to the previous games in the series is that you can trade points for an easier time through the hardest sections of stages by using a hyper in the tough spots rather than chaining normally, which will make it a lot easier to keep the chain but not give you any multipliers until your gauge is full again. This lets you adjust the chains to your skill level, to a degree.

[KNTain]

All of the same bullet patterns and difficulty and gameplay has been found in each of their games on the iOS so far; the one thing that MIGHT get people thinking it's "diluted" is that, for whatever reason, the games tend to default to a lower difficulty with fewer bullets... probably to make them easier to get into. you want the ACTUAL arcade patterns and challenge, you have to go and change the settings. But from there on, it's all the same, and it works fine.

All of the movement rules are pretty much thrown out the window. Which is a big deal.

[Skykid]

Basically, you want to use a couple of hypers at the start of the stage to jack up the hit counter as high as you can get it, and then stay with the hyper gauge maxed but outside of a hyper for the rest of the stage, chaining normally. If you have a full gauge but are not in a hyper, a bunch of multipliers are factored into your chain value starting at x2 for 500 hits and maxing at x7 at 10,000 hits.

Of course, the nice thing about this system compared to the previous games in the series is that you can trade points for an easier time through the hardest sections of stages by using a hyper in the tough spots rather than chaining normally, which will make it a lot easier to keep the chain but not give you any multipliers until your gauge is full again. This lets you adjust the chains to your skill level, to a degree.

OR, just play Black Label because it rulez so hard.

[Erppo]

Sure if you prefer hypering through absolutely everything all the time with hypers that are easier to obtain, cancel stuff better, safer to use, cancellable and actually the best way to score.

Edit: I'm still baffled by that one Yagawa interview where he said he wanted to tone down the hypers for BL, so he made what I described above.