Run N' Guns.......definition...

[evil_ash_xero]

OK, I am totally perplexed by the the whole run n' gun thing. I have seen people on here list Mega Man over and over as a run n' gun. To me, that is not a run n' gun at all. You do run, and you do have a gun, but it's not the same thing. I go to Wikipedia, and freaking Ghouls N' Ghosts is listed as a Run N' Gun. I mean...what the hell?

Maybe it's just me...but this is just odd....

Run N' Guns to me are: Contra, Metal Slug, Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier(more of a run n' gun boss rush)... then the overhead ones, like Ikari Warriors, Commando, Gunsmoke, and Shock Troopers. And of course, many old games like Rush N' Attack, and the like.

Hrmmm...what do you think? What is Mega Man? What is Ghosts N' Goblins, if not run n' guns? I would just think "platform action game". But then again, i'm thinking back to way back when the Nintendo games would just say "Action" or "Adventure" on them.

And what is stuff like Wild Guns called? I've seen Sin And Punishment listed as a run 'n gun. What is Pocky And Rocky? It plays just like an overhead run n' gun...but you're using cards. Does this count? This is just all very confusing.

I'm putting too much thought into this...

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Wild Guns is a light-gun shooter. Sin & Punishment is a rail shooter. Pocky & Rocky is most definitely a run 'n gun. Mega Man isn't strictly an action platformer (Battle Network/Starforce series) have no idea about GnG because I never had the interest to play it.
Once again, /v/ to the rescue~

[evil_ash_xero]

Wild Guns is a light-gun shooter. Sin & Punishment is a rail shooter. Pocky & Rocky is most definitely a run 'n gun. Mega Man isn't strictly an action platformer (Battle Network/Starforce series) have no idea about GnG because I never had the interest to play it.
Once again, /v/ to the rescue~

Wild Guns isn't a light gun shooter. It plays like Cabal, and that Nam game on Neo Geo.

I would agree with you on the other two. I think I would actually say Pocky and Rocky is a "Run N' Gun Cute 'Em Up". I'm gonna trademark that.

[xbl0x180]

Commando is a shoot-'em-up. There isn't an automatic scroll, but there are no platforms to jump and run through. The gameplay is like a shoot-'em-up

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Wild Guns isn't a light gun shooter. It plays like Cabal, and that Nam game on Neo Geo.

I don't know then. Shall we settle on point 'n click shooter for simplicity's sake?

Commando is a shoot-'em-up. There isn't an automatic scroll, but there are no platforms to jump and run through. The gameplay is like a shoot-'em-up

No. Commando is Contra with a Zelda perspective. Still a run 'n gun.

[louisg]

I think that in general something is a run n gun if it focuses on shooting and dodging as the main skills, as opposed to platforming or exploration. It can have platforming elements, but that can't be the focus. The feel is very much like a shmup without forced scroll, and the pacing is distinctly arcade. This differentiates them from something like Metroid or Mega Man which calls for a very different skill set and a more leisurely pace.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Been playing Rockman X3 lately and I wouldn't say platforming-to-shooting/dodging ratio is that different from something like Contra. The main difference is that in Contra, Gunstar Heroes etc. the enemies keep coming at you from the off-screen area, whereas in Rockman they are waiting for you as you enter the screen. Rockman X3 feels more acrobatic than Contra, but Gunstar Heroes is pretty acrobatic like that as well.
I'd say run 'n' gun is a shooting game where the playable character runs (so Max Payne is a run 'n' gun, but Rez isn't).

[Stormwatch]

A run n' gun is a platformer with a lot of shooting.

So I disregard the label entirely and just call it a platformer (definitely NOT a shooter).

[Sumez]

Though not a classic shoot'em up, I consider run'n'gun games both platformers and shooters. One genre shouldn't exclude the other.

[Stormwatch]

Nonsense. The division is very clear, actually.

Contra, Gunstar Heroes, Metal Slug, Abuse? PLATFORMERS.

Ikari, Guerrilla War, Soldiers of Fortune, Alien Syndrome, Smash TV? SHOOTERS.

Why are the former platformers, if there's so many bullets flying around? The number of bullets is irrelevant. Its characters move like platformers: they walk around, jump around, and are affected by gravity; they don't fly around the levels (the reason why Bangai-O and Atomic Robo Kid are not platformers), and are not stuck on the ground either.

[Sumez]

So why do you feel a platformer can't also be a shooter?
In my optics, that's always been how I defined a "run'n'gun" game.

You can't say "even though it has all the stuff that'd make the game a shooter, it's not, because it also has platforms!!!"
Sure, I respect people only wanting to call pure classic formula shoot'em up games a "shooter", especially concerning this forum where it needs to be clear where the focus is at, but generally I don't think you can put that sort of restrictions on genres. It's like saying Maniac Mansion isn't an adventure game because it doesn't use text parsing inputs like the Sierra games before it, so instead it's a point'n'click game!

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

A run n' gun is a platformer with a lot of shooting.

No. Side-scrolling run 'n guns aren't platformers because the focus is on avoiding shots and returning fire, not trying to figure out the best way to traverse deadly landscapes.

[xbl0x180]

Commando is a shoot-'em-up. There isn't an automatic scroll, but there are no platforms to jump and run through. The gameplay is like a shoot-'em-up

No. Commando is Contra with a Zelda perspective. Still a run 'n gun.

Commando is like a prehistoric Mamoru-kun. It's a shoot-'em-up. It isn't like Contra or Zelda at all since there are no platforms or maze exploration involved; you might be thinking of something like Bloody Wolf or POW, which are exactly what you described.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

After seeing game play footage of Mamoru-Kun, I can safely say that it's a run 'n gun as well. Like I said before, platforming is not what defines a run 'n gun, it's what defines a platformer. Those segments are purely optional and are usually incredibly mild.

[xbl0x180]

After seeing game play footage of Mamoru-Kun, I can safely say that it's a run 'n gun as well. Like I said before, platforming is not what defines a run 'n gun, it's what defines a platformer. Those segments are purely optional and are usually incredibly mild.

Nope.

Platforming + shooting = Run 'N Gun. This is what Contra is. It is not Commando... unless you're referring to a totally different game than the Capcom game

[louisg]

I think the problem with the way people look for definitions on this site is that they're looking for a hard set of rules: If you can jump, then it's not a run n gun. Well, Abuse and Contra are NOT in the same category. They don't play anything remotely similar, even though they share a couple traits. On paper, if you list the game's features, sure, they sound about the same. But when you play them, it's immediately apparent that they aren't the same genre.

To clarify: A platformer is like Mario, where the focus of the game is on making jumps-- it's almost like a physics exploitation game. This is a secondary concern in games like Metal Slug-- it's almost entirely shooting, complete with huge end of level bosses like you'd find in a traditional shooter and many of the other same conventions (but I'll concede that stage 2 of Metal Slug 2 is pretty much just a platforming stage, though this isn't typical for the series).

I'd argue that Contra and Commando are the same genre, but one is side view and the other are not. This makes jumping a necessary feature in the side-view game, but it is only there because it has to be and not because it is the central mechanic that level designs revolve around (which shooting is).

[xbl0x180]

To clarify: A platformer is like Mario, where the focus of the game is on making jumps-- it's almost like a physics exploitation game. This is a secondary concern in games like Metal Slug-- it's almost entirely shooting, complete with huge end of level bosses like you'd find in a traditional shooter and many of the other same conventions (but I'll concede that stage 2 of Metal Slug 2 is pretty much just a platforming stage, though this isn't typical for the series).

I'd argue that Contra and Commando are the same genre, but one is side view and the other are not. This makes jumping a necessary feature in the side-view game, but it is only there because it has to be and not because it is the central mechanic that level designs revolve around (which shooting is).

Nah. Commando is like Mamoru-kun, Ninja Commando, MERCS, Time Soldiers, and Heavy Barrel. Actually, some of these games have levels where they go to the sides and not towards the top - without jumping. It's basically a shoot-'em-up that does not automatically scroll and does not have a flying character. Everything else is there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDr9gu73J-k

Contra is like Metal Slug, Firefox, Shinobi, NARC, Bloody Wolf, Chelnov, and such. The game makes it necessary to jump platforms or platform-esque structures.

[louisg]

To clarify: A platformer is like Mario, where the focus of the game is on making jumps-- it's almost like a physics exploitation game. This is a secondary concern in games like Metal Slug-- it's almost entirely shooting, complete with huge end of level bosses like you'd find in a traditional shooter and many of the other same conventions (but I'll concede that stage 2 of Metal Slug 2 is pretty much just a platforming stage, though this isn't typical for the series).

I'd argue that Contra and Commando are the same genre, but one is side view and the other are not. This makes jumping a necessary feature in the side-view game, but it is only there because it has to be and not because it is the central mechanic that level designs revolve around (which shooting is).

Nah. Commando is like Mamoru-kun, Ninja Commando, MERCS, Time Soldiers, and Heavy Barrel. Actually, some of these games have levels where they go to the sides and not towards the top - without jumping. It's basically a shoot-'em-up that does not automatically scroll and does not have a flying character. Everything else is there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDr9gu73J-k

Contra is like Metal Slug, Firefox, Shinobi, NARC, Bloody Wolf, Chelnov, and such. The game makes it necessary to jump platforms or platform-esque structures.

But the lack of forced scrolling changes the game significantly.. that can't really be ignored. I think Bloody Wolf plays a lot more like Commando than it does like Contra since most of it is top view (kind of like Legend of Valkyrie-- top view with a jump button which is only used occasionally). Chelnov is kind of in its own category, veering a little more towards shmup but with some platforming elements (kind of like that Wolf Fang game). NARC is nowhere. Shinobi is more like Mega Man or Castlevania or something-- it's hardly shooty. Those used to all be categorized as "action/adventure" in old mags. Basically, all the games you listed barely have anything in common except for the most superficial elements.

[sven666]

aaah the untapped potential of the human psyche...

[Sumez]

I dare say the element of controlling your character using jumping physics and possibly platforms, clinging to ceilings or similar cause a much more significant change in gameplay than the element of non-forced scrolling!

Even so, all three types of games are still essentially shooters, because they are focused on shooting enemies and dodging their shots.


Mega Man, Castlevania, Mario etc. mainly focus on exploration and platforming - even though Mega Man has more shooter elements than your typical platformer it's still a far cry from a typical run'n'gun platform shooter (omg look at what I just did there) like Contra og Gunstar Heroes.

[grobda]

hope youre not losing sleep over this

[xbl0x180]

I'd argue that Contra and Commando are the same genre, but one is side view and the other are not.

They gameplay is different. In order to win at Contra, the player needs to use the jump button. In order to win at Commando, the player needs to dodge bullets and enemies. Both shoot, but the gameplay is different.

This makes jumping a necessary feature in the side-view game, but it is only there because it has to be and not because it is the central mechanic that level designs revolve around (which shooting is).

Nope. It is definitely a central mechanic to the game. You cannot beat Contra without jumping. You can beat Commando by killing enemies and dodging bullets. Again, MERCS and Time Soldiers possess side views without the benefit of jumping, whereas with Contra [and other Run 'N Gun games] you do.

But the lack of forced scrolling changes the game significantly.. that can't really be ignored.

Seems to work fine with Galaga and Gyruss, unless you're also claiming these aren't shoot-'em-ups

I think Bloody Wolf plays a lot more like Commando than it does like Contra since most of it is top view (kind of like Legend of Valkyrie-- top view with a jump button which is only used occasionally).

It doesn't. You'll be having a bloody bad time trying to beat Bloody Wolf without jumping. You might be able to, but I don't think it's been tried... ever

Chelnov is kind of in its own category, veering a little more towards shmup but with some platforming elements (kind of like that Wolf Fang game). NARC is nowhere.

NARC plays like Bloody Wolf and any other Run 'N Gun. Chelnov could be either.

Shinobi is more like Mega Man or Castlevania or something-- it's hardly shooty. Those used to all be categorized as "action/adventure" in old mags. Basically, all the games you listed barely have anything in common except for the most superficial elements.

Whaaaa... Shinobi and Mega Man hardly "shooty"? This isn't Super Mario Bros. fireballs they're shooting on occasion. It's half of the gameplay you're talking about. "Hardly shooty" hahah

[louisg]

Ehh, that's the kind of absolute logic I was complaining about. Follow that, and Paperboy is a shmup. Anyway.. dead horse.

[xbl0x180]

Don't forget Road Blaster, STUN Runner, and Spy Hunter

I think you mean "all-inclusive" logic. Absolute stuff is defining a shoot-'em-up as needing to have a forced scroll, the way you explained.

[louisg]

Don't forget Road Blaster, STUN Runner, and Spy Hunter

I think you mean "all-inclusive" logic. Absolute stuff is defining a shoot-'em-up as needing to have a forced scroll, the way you explained.

Haha, those are all awesome.. I actually couldn't resist putting Spy Hunter on my top list, even though I really do think that's not really a shmup, and I consider scoot n shoots like Space Invaders or Tempest to be more proto-shmups than anything.

Anyway, the thing that makes these hard to classify is that you can start at shmups and try to make a tree of differences.. before too long, you will have named every game genre except for maybe RPGs, strategy and falling block games

Yes, all-inclusive might have been a better choice of words. There are way too many borderliners, but I'm pretty confident in excluding Mega Man or Metroid from being considered run n guns, or Gauntlet, Magician Lord, or hundreds of other games that require shooting but lack the feel or pacing of a shooter and lack significant amounts of bullet dodging.

Mercs and Time Soldiers are definitely *not* side view games any more than Tubular Worlds is side view or a game becomes 'side view' when you use one of those rotate-controls modes. I'm even torn when it comes to something like Progear or Sengoku Blade. They look side-view, but nearly all of the gameplay is identical to a top view game: they're almost entirely missing the distinguishing characteristics of side view shmups (not that there isn't plenty of cross-polination anyway).

One funny thing that I think this goes into is that flipping through the PC Engine library I found a lot of "tweaked genre" games-- Bloody Wolf as you pointed out is an interesting one because it plays just like many other top view run n guns but they add a jump button. It's the exact same with Legend of Valkyrie (which is a little more explore-y). And then a few of the popular side view shmups on that system almost play identically to a top view game: Coryoon and Air Zonk for example both play mostly like top view shooters in terms of features and the strategies the player has to adopt to beat them.

Whaaaa... Shinobi and Mega Man hardly "shooty"? This isn't Super Mario Bros. fireballs they're shooting on occasion. It's half of the gameplay you're talking about. "Hardly shooty" hahah

Shinobi is really more about creeping along and taking out the occasional enemy. It has platformer pacing, and a lot of the skill is in holding back, striking or jumping between the upper and lower level when there is an opportunity. Mega Man.. I mean.. it's just a NES-style action game (along with Metroid and 100s of others). There is a ton of platforming, timing jumps over enemies and moving platforms, using items smartly, and that sort of thing. It's not Metal Slug where you're aiming all over the screen, using jumps to avoid bullets and grenades mostly, and dismantling huge end bosses. There is a vast and immediately apparent difference.

[JoshF]

How much platforming did the arcade Super Contra have? That's why you call them "Action Shooters".