Can you truly enjoy a shooter by credit feeding or sucking?

[Aliquantic]

I never use practice modes either - I should really break this habit in order to get better.

Heh, Parodius week for STGT must have been pretty painful for you then

[Illyrian]

I could never credit feed on a PCB cause I'd rather spend time learning the earlier levels if I'm paying for it.

I get more satisfaction at home as well from learning a game level by level.

[Randorama]

What do you guys think?

Enjoyment is a peculiar thing. I tend to enjoy games when i can experience three things:

1. I like the basic mechanics;
2. I can improve in a relatively continuous way over time, especially when I can figure out how to overcome obstacles;
3. I can perform well even if I don't play a game for a while;

In general the two aspects mean that I enjoy shmups when I like the basic aspects and, after a bit, I can e.g. get better both at scoring and surviving. If I like a game, 1-CC and going for a good score are when I start really enjoying a game. Factor 3 is something I consider a plus: for instance, I still play games such as Darius Gaiden because, on any day, I can 1-CC the game (i.e. being proficient at it) without too much continuous practice.

I can enjoy credit-feeding too, however, when I want to play games in which I can't attain factor 3. I just credit-fed in Sokyugurentai, for instance, as the last stage is very hard to be cleared if one does not practice. This is a console/MAME luxury: back in my arcade days, when I had to pay, I usually tried to "keep fit" and practice games I was already good at, in order to maintain the ability to 1-CC them.

I may enjoy credit-feeding games in MAME from time to time, when I am in the mood to muck around.

[emphatic]

Sometimes credit feeding through the game helps determine if it's even worth the effort to 1cc.

I give Metal Slug (1) as an example--a run and gun shmup. I did 16 continues and the second player plaing along did 11 continues--playing the SNK Arcade Classics volume 1 version on the PS2. Finished the game, got the ending, the game even tallied the number of continues at the end of the game. No way do I think that game is worth the effort to put into 1ccing, period. Next time I play again, I'll definitely be credit feeding it even with solo play and I'll be credit feeding it again if I play again using 2-player cooperative play. Yeah, I'll still try to go as far as I can per turn and per credit for my own skill improvement, but I'm not going to think any less of myself by not 1ccing it since I've determined it's not worth the 1cc. As far as elitism and bragging rights I can't properly claim I beat Metal Slug until I 1cc it, but do I care? No, I'll play the game for fun only and I'll play it as I see fit, which is credit feeding for the time being. It's not ever important enough for me to 1cc that game, or by extension any of its sequels. If by chance I do ever get good enough to 1cc the game, then I'll have beaten the game legitimately. Until then, let someone else struggle and limit themselves to the 1cc on the Metal Slug series.

^^ This. I have enjoyed myself with a friend who's not a hardcore gamer credit feeding through a couple of the Metal Slug games while enjoying a great glass of red wine. This is of course also because of the great humor in the games (1-3 at least). And sure, I've credit feed through Ketsui a couple of times just to "take the edge" of trying to 1CC it and it was at times awesome fun. Sometimes you just want to play a great game casually.

[Thjodbjorn]

I am pretty bad at shmups. I can typically only get to stage 3, maybe stage 3 boss on one credit on many games. But I enjoy the hell out of them. I AM trying my best to beat my last score/progression though.

[chempop]

Short answer: Yes, if it has good music

Who's to say that people should even have to enjoy these games? What if you play and play, considering it something like work or training similar to an Athlete or professional musician. Do you think they always enjoy their repetitive drills, or messing up certain parts of a song over and over until they get it right - of course not! The enjoyment comes from and accomplishment of winning that home court game in front of your fans, or rocking on stage to play a show - I think with Shmups it doesn't always have to be fun, but to get that 1CC or high score can be an accomplishment that feels good makes the time spend worthwhile.

Credit feeding can definitely be fun, especially when there are limited credits or checkpoints. One of the first things I did when I when to Tokyo back in 2002 was credit feed Ikaruga with a friend, thank god it was a 10¥ arcade!

[captpain]

learn2paragraph @ OP

[power UP]

Credit feeding to see credits, not enjoyable.
Sucking is yes. Getting good at the game IS the game.

[t0yrobo]

I swear a thread similar to this pops up at least once a year or so. Anyway, you absolutely can have a lot of fun credit feeding a game. But there's even more fun to be had by spending more time on it.

[xbl0x180]

I've never tried credit feeding a shooter before, doubt I'd enjoy it though. Credit feeding to me seems like the equivalent of watching a movie on x10 speed just to see everything and have it spoiled, then go back and watch it normally.

Speaking as a movie fanatic, one of the main factors for liking shoot-'em-ups is that there is no story. The other is how brief [and exciting/thrilling] the game can be. It is the complete opposite of the movie experience, yet just as fulfilling

[JJXB]

I *can* enjoy a game when credit feeding it though dependent on why i'm playing. if it's to casually play and learn without the need to worry about how many credits I use, then credit feeding is no issue. but If i'm trying to cement a certain technique of playing a level to avoid credit use, it just feels wrong because I messed it up. so credit feeding can be enjoyable if you're in the right mindset.

[TonK]

learn2paragraph @ OP

Were you able to read it?

Been my posting style for a decade, not going to change it for you.

[chempop]

What is it with you just responding to the people who are clearly pushing your buttons.
Go back to telling people how much there games are worth... j/k

[TonK]

What is it with you just responding to the people who are clearly pushing your buttons.
Go back to telling people how much there games are worth... j/k

I really don't need to respond to anything not directed at me.

Like I said, I'm really enjoying the responses.

Just wish some members here didn't have to act like a bunch of babies.

This is a legit topic, but obviously some people have an issue with me.

I'll respond to them.

[Blackbird]

I'm new to this genre/hobby, so pretty much any shmup I sit down to play is either going to be blind or new to to me. I do not expect to 1CC games with little practice in them - I would be deluding myself if I thought I could sit down with pretty much any Cave game and think I could 1CC it on the first attempt. So, at the moment, my standard mode of playing is to credit feed, simply to learn the games and improve my skills. I have a lot of fun just learning and trying to get better at them, but with a long term goal of having the 1CC / as few deaths as possible.

It goes without saying while learning the game that I'll blunder into traps, get walled by bullets, get surprised by weird shot patterns, or simply mishandle my craft. Obviously, it's no fun dying over and over, so usually the defining line for me between "fun" and "suck" is whether I can read the patterns well and dodge the majority of them (80% or more, as a guesstimate). Basically, if I feel like I'm doing "well", at least from a survival standpoint, then I'm having fun. If I'm chaining bombs/deaths or the screen is filled with an incomprehensible wall of bullets, then it's time for me to turn the difficulty down or let someone on that can play the game =P.

I do feel like I am improving, too. In a blind play of Mushi Futari the other day, I felt I was able to read a lot of the patterns that might have confused me before, and I also felt I was able to have good judgment on when I was getting trapped and when to use bombs. I was also better able to hit that bomb before it was too late. My reflexes are getting a little better. I only got to Stage 3, but at the same time, I don't think I would have been able to do that a month ago. Casual observers were impressed that I could stream bullets and thread though some bullet walls =P.

For now, I find enjoyment in simply being able to survive for longer and longer periods between deaths, as well as the satisfaction of feeling I'm getting better at the genre.

Edit: Realized I didn't actually answer the question, lol. I feel you can have fun while credit feeding in the sense that you're learning and improving, and that's fun. However, if you are outright sucking and just dying continually without getting any real insight into the game, then that's no fun at all. I guess you could draw the line based on the number of credits needed. In my opinion, if you can finish the game in a handful of credits, perhaps dying 1-3 times a stage, (3, 5, or maybe even 10 depending on game length) then it's credit feeding and fun. You're playing well most of the time, with occasional deaths. If you are just chaining deaths over and over (many credits to finish the game) then it's not useful or fun.

[TonK]

Great responses fellas.

Keep 'em coming.

Your personal feelings on the matter really provide a different angle for me.

Thanks.

[Sapz]

I think there's definitely a certain fun to be had just running headlong into a new game with no idea what's going to happen and doing things by reaction, it's nice to 'ooh' and 'aah' at the new things in a game you've never seen before. However, I find the most enjoyment I've had with this hobby are the times when I've sunk a large amount of time into a game and it finally pays off with a great run with a lot of planning and experience put into it. Playing a few casual runs feels less satisfying for me compared to a run I've worked hard at and is near the limits of my current ability (as in there's not a great deal more I could realistically have hoped for at the time).

[dannnnn]

For me personally, I feel you get out what you put in. I can enjoy credit-feeding any decent shoot-em-up and I have friends who really like bullet hell games just for the craziness, but the real satisfaction comes when you dedicate some time to score attacking or a 1CC. IMO that's where the magic lies in arcade games and this genre in particular.

[BulletMagnet]

Getting good at the game IS the game.

I think this sums up my feelings pretty well: even if I never get all that good at a game, just popping it in whenever I feel like it and seeing how far I can get stays fun no matter how many times I do it, at least for me. Funnily enough, you very rarely hear about players who suck at a game eventually "quitting" it: the ones who do that are the players who analyze every aspect, watch all the superplays, practice the same areas for hours on end, and submit a couple of impressive scores before deciding that they've done all there is to do in the title (or are just plain sick of it) and shelve it permanently. Granted, there's nothing innately "wrong" with that approach, as there's plenty out there to play no matter how much you actually "finish", but I definitely think it's possible to both enjoy and appreciate a game without ever "mastering" it.

[TonK]

For me personally, I feel you get out what you put in. I can enjoy credit-feeding any decent shoot-em-up and I have friends who really like bullet hell games just for the craziness, but the real satisfaction comes when you dedicate some time to score attacking or a 1CC. IMO that's where the magic lies in arcade games and this genre in particular.

Best response so far.

[hiptanaka]

Getting good at the game IS the game.

Small correction: Getting better at the game IS the game.

But I assume that's what you meant.

To fully enjoy a shooter, I think this mentality is crucial, but of course the right person can enjoy any game to some extent without skill-oriented playing.

Personally, I very rarely enjoy (action) games where I'm not allowed to either build up my skills, or utilize skills I have from before (from other games, for example). What I mean is, the game has to require me to do things right to succeed, and punish me if I don't. Without these "challenges", there's no sense of accomplishment. There could, however, be a game that I finish on my first try because I'm very familiar with the kind of game, and I would still enjoy it because I know I had to utilize some skills. Credit feeding effectively removes this aspect from the game, because anyone, even a baby, could finish the game on the first try. Some people can obviously enjoy games in this highly casual way, but I doubt they're "fully" enjoying them, and they must surely be judging the games on other criteria than gameplay.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Even a baby could finish it credit feeding? What about Gradius V? Even on Very Easy the game is stupid hard, annoyingly so where now I only play one credit and then the game sits on the shelf for over a month. The only way to earn extra continue credits it to keep playing it either with multiple games or credit feeding.

And I don't care if someone else finds the game so easy they can 1cc it, I find it stupid hard, I dislike the game more and more the more I try to play it for score, and so I don't find the game enjoyable either limiting myself to one credit or using multiple credits.

[captpain]

learn2paragraph @ OP

Were you able to read it?

Been my posting style for a decade, not going to change it for you.

No, it was bothersome so I quit a few lines in. You're very special.

[xbl0x180]

Even a baby could finish it credit feeding? What about Gradius V? Even on Very Easy the game is stupid hard, annoyingly so where now I only play one credit and then the game sits on the shelf for over a month. The only way to earn extra continue credits it to keep playing it either with multiple games or credit feeding.

And I don't care if someone else finds the game so easy they can 1cc it, I find it stupid hard, I dislike the game more and more the more I try to play it for score, and so I don't find the game enjoyable either limiting myself to one credit or using multiple credits.

If you can't run a 4-minute mile, you're not "truly enjoying" the race because, as we all know, running is all about improving your way to the top

[Siren2011]

No, it was bothersome so I quit a few lines in. You're very special.

lmao!

captpain.

i just wanted to let you know.

you made me laugh.

cuz you made a funny.

...in case you were wondering why I was laughing.

that is all.

[MrFog]

I think it very much depends on the game.
A game like Dodonpachi or Ketsui could be enjoyed while credit feeding if you play it for the 1st or 2nd time. This is similar to credit feeding through a Beat'em up, the player just wants to see the levels, what the bosses are like and so on. But after they've seen them, it will quickly get boring, and I doubt someone credit feeding would play even half as often as someone who takes the game seriously.

Checkpoint based games might be different. Something like Tatsujin Oh or Parodius will take some time to beat even if you credit feed, and when you get through then you managed to at least beat the section up to the next checkpoint. It forces the player to improve at least somewhat, which will either make the game enjable or incredibly frustrating to the player.

[tinotormed]

I credit fed when I first played some arcade games (it used to be Raiden II, I think) since I was young because I don't know how to dodge bullets just yet. But as I continue to grow up and by joining this forum, I gain more attributes and continue to gain huge skills until I can realize where each enemy is coming from every direction. Let me count the arcade games (and their ports) that I played through credit feeding:

- Strikers 1945 I and II
- Gunbird II
- Strikers 1999
- Raiden II
- Raiden Fighters 2
- Sidearms
- 1943

No offense even though I like these games, but I am still struggling how to keep up on these games.

[PROMETHEUS]

How do you people manage to go off topic so quickly?

Hahaha +1 ! It's freaking amazing how freaking fast it got into a generic 1vs1 forum battle there !

[dpful]

I play DPP DFK for score, die, and then sometimes put in another credit just to PLAY the last levels. I think some games, especially when very difficult, are fun to just play through, and I enjoy being in the zone even if I'm exploding.

It's always more fun to give a serious try, though, and unless I'm really in the mood for video games, I'll usually play 1 credit.

But on that note, I'm critical of games that don't go the extra mile with their "set pieces"---- I havn't tried rayforce in a bit, but when I first discovered it I compulsively credit fed it for that reason (amazing set pieces). Air Gallet has a few spots that keep me putting in quarters. Darius Gaiden is the best example of a game that I will almost ALWAYS credit feed beyond my first attempt at a high score (usually just an attempt to see how far I can get).
The music plays a part in this, too.
for an example of where I think the ball was dropped, and the fun of credit feeding is lost:
I'd be compelled to credit feed Mushihimesama if it wasn't for
1. fly over green water forever? wtf?
2. the ripping flute solos don't come in till the last level

The real question should be, which GAMES are fun to learn, fun to score on, and fun to credit feed. My favorites are the ones that touch on all those bases

[captpain]

I play DPP DFK for score, die, and then sometimes put in another credit just to PLAY the last levels. I think some games, especially when very difficult, are fun to just play through, and I enjoy being in the zone even if I'm exploding.

IMO you can't be "in the zone" if you're exploding. Being in the zone is about fluidity/continuity, and exploding all the time really should interrupt that.

Obviously you should have the ability to smoothly recover after deaths -- what I mean applies to feeding credits/slapping continue a bunch.