9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

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Herr Schatten
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Herr Schatten »

incognoscente wrote:While I rewrote almost every rule this year, I didn't necessarily spend enough time thinking all of them through. In the 7th Annual voting, I merged the various Futari releases together. The 8th Annual vote was Herr Schatten's baby (yes, I am so totally blaming you) and he requested they be split. I can see logic in either solution: merge all or split all, so I didn't really question it.
The reason why I decided that way during the 8th Annual vote was that I was actually trying to simplify things. I think whoever is running the poll can not reasonably be expected to know in detail about all the nuances of two versions of a given game. Looking at each pair of games and deciding individually whether they're close enough to be lumped together or different enough to call for seperate entries sounds good in theory, but it can actually become quite difficult to decide where to draw the line. Different forum members have different opinions on this, as is evident in the discussion at hand. While, personally, I'd be fine with merging all games who share the same enemy placement and level structure, I vividly recall a discussion with a forum member who demanded to seperate Raiden III's double mode from its normal mode, because he was adamant that it was a completely different game if played that way.

Basing the decision of merge vs. split not on closeness of gameplay but on the existence of standalone releases seems like an elegant solution to the problem. After all, if a developer deems his own game different enough to give it a seperate standalone release, who am I to argue?
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by ncp »

Herr Schatten wrote:Basing the decision of merge vs. split not on closeness of gameplay but on the existence of standalone releases seems like an elegant solution to the problem. After all, if a developer deems his own game different enough to give it a seperate standalone release, who am I to argue?
Ah, c'mon, we all know game revisions like Cave's BLs are just a way to make another full-price (or higher in Cave's case LOL) release without having to make an actual new game :lol:

Reasonable enough rule, though. All merging does is save me a couple spots.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Aliquantic »

Incidentally, DOJ is another very special case since the BL PCB/ports does include WL as well and allows you to pick which one you want, so BL is strictly an upgrade over the previous release. I'm having the same problem with Judgement Silversword/Eschatos since the former is included in the latter along with other games, which makes Eschatos strictly superior but I've never actually played it :|
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Herr Schatten »

Aliquantic wrote:I'm having the same problem with Judgement Silversword/Eschatos since the former is included in the latter along with other games, which makes Eschatos strictly superior but I've never actually played it :|
Well, I think your examples fall under the 'compilations' rule, as no one would argue that Judgement Silversword and Cardinal Sins are actually parts of Eschatos (the game).
incognoscente wrote:05. Vote for games, not compilations that include them. You can't vote for Raiden Fighters Aces but you can vote for each of the three games it contains.
Just because, in this case (Eschatos), the compilation has the same name as one of the games included, it doesn't make it less of a compilation, right?
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Aliquantic »

Doh :| Sorry, I didn't think that one through at all!
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Drum »

Are fangames acceptable? I'd vote for G-Type.
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Hi-score thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34327
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Herr Schatten »

Drum wrote:Are fangames acceptable? I'd vote for G-Type.
I can't see why not. Vote away.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by stryc9 »

Just posted my list, I hope everything is in order.

One of the hardest questions you could ask a shooter fan and I agonized over my list for a long time :)

Crimzon Clover did not make the list I'm afraid, and I was deliberating how many of the 'brand new' 360 games to include considering we have only been playing some of them for a few months at most, compared to the old school entries that have been dissected by fans for years.

Oh well, I guess thats why this is an annual thing 8)
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by incognoscente »

Drum wrote:Are fangames acceptable?
Absolutely. G-Type, GuwangeDash, etc. can all receive votes. Flash games, too, if you have one you think is particularly notable.

cj iwakura wrote:What about Silpheed Sega CD and Silpheed PS2? They are ENTIRELY different.
Not sure if this one was aimed at me, but those two have always been kept separate.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by louisg »

Are you keeping PCE and Arcade Galaga 88/89/90 together? I know you could argue that the home port plays differently because of the aspect ratio, but it's practically the same game (meaning voting is more likely to be a matter of which version you play more/own/etc than preference).
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Hagane »

One thing I don't understand is how Strikers 1945 II generally seems to be held on a higher regard than Dragon Blaze. My guess is that it's because Dragon Blaze is the epitome of the Psikyo style whereas Strikers 1945 II is so far away from it.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by louisg »

Hagane wrote:One thing I don't understand is how Strikers 1945 II generally seems to be held on a higher regard than Dragon Blaze. My guess is that it's because Dragon Blaze is the epitome of the Psikyo style whereas Strikers 1945 II is so far away from it.
Speaking for myself, I just haven't played Dragon Blaze a whole lot since I don't own it. I might have put down Strikers III, which is more polished, but I felt that II just had a perfect difficulty curve (as far as my level of skill is concerned at least). Someday I guess I'll have to put some serious time into Dragon Blaze and see how it is!
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Observer »

I will be happy to see at least ONE doujin make it to the top 25, even if it's only Crimzon Mothe4%$·% Clover. Crowning moment of awesome guaranteed. Not gonna happen in a million years, you bloody bastards with your DoDonPichas Dai-Tou-hous and Sushihimesamas Futanaris, but it would be cool, NE? :P

Ah, why so serious...

Anyway, I need to play more Armed Police Batride, jeez. I voted it damn high but it's been a couple of months since my last dose of VIOLENT CITY.

I've seen plenty of the Ray series too. Man, I just love those games and I wish Taito could make a new entry even if it's a spiritual successor. It'll probably inspire Siter Skain to make another game in the process.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by incognoscente »

louisg wrote:Are you keeping PCE and Arcade Galaga 88/89/90 together?
Yep. Most home conversions are lumped with the game that spawned them, even if a few things had to be changed in the process.


Observer wrote:Sushihimesamas Futanaris
HOT.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Aliquantic »

Finally stopped playing around with my list, dropping Vasara 2 and DSMBL helped make room near the bottom... I still wish I could drop DOJWL since it's just filler at this point :|

Touhou could probably make it into the top 25 if we didn't all split our votes across the whole series! A lot of series are going to have that problem though :s (I'd include Vasara 2 and Psyvariar 2 or Shikigami 2 in my list too, if I had the spots for them)
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Sonic R »

I have a question… are the games Centipede and Millipede eligible for voting?
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by incognoscente »

Yes, both games are eligible for votes. Right now each appears on a single ballot (1 v. 2), so a vote for either game would help.


Herr Schatten wrote:Basing the decision of merge vs. split not on closeness of gameplay but on the existence of standalone releases seems like an elegant solution to the problem. After all, if a developer deems his own game different enough to give it a seperate standalone release, who am I to argue?
I didn't mean to ignore this post, but I suppose it looks like I did. Sorry.

I think we're looking at separate sides of the issue. The rule last year and so far this year has a two-prong test:
  1. Did the game get a standalone release?
  2. Is the game sufficiently different from the earlier versions of the game?
I'm in complete agreement with A, which seems to be primarily what your post is defending. My sole issue is clause B. While it remains there is ambiguity. I don't mind that ambiguity per se, I just require that I be honest and say what it ultimately requires: a judgment call.

Dodonpachi Daioujou White Label and Black Label both received standalone releases (A) but are not very different from each other at all (B). In my opinion, they should be merged, the same as if they were home conversions with niggling differences to the arcade original.

One thing I try to do each year is review the list of games I merge or split and my reasons why. When I don't have a reason listed, I try to find time to provide that reason. Just one of the perks/curses of the job, in my eyes. When I can't get firsthand experience I try to devour videos and articles about the different games to help form an opinion. Sometimes I ask the forum for opinions (as here) when I have a lack of time or want subtle guidance on which should be my first targets (Ibara Kuro and Daifukkatsu Black Label).


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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by RNGmaster »

Observer wrote:I will be happy to see at least ONE doujin make it to the top 25, even if it's only Crimzon Mothe4%$·% Clover. Crowning moment of awesome guaranteed. Not gonna happen in a million years, you bloody bastards with your DoDonPichas Dai-Tou-hous and Sushihimesamas Futanaris, but it would be cool, NE? :P
It's got 12 votes, many of which are rather high-placed on individual lists. There's a chance.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by toaplan_shmupfan »

I never could get into Gun.Smoke, but your post is making me want to fire it up something fierce.
Best played using only the three buttons and NOT using the button combinations despite the extra feature being that the buttons can be combined to shoot in different directions. Use the left button to shoot diagonally left, use the center button to fire up, use the right button to fire diagonally right. Stick with only that and the game plays much better.

(I've always found the shot combinations of left+center and right+center to be too narrow of a shot angle, and the left+right V-shot pattern to be useless.)

Skull looking objects are also to be avoided, as they power down the gun.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Ebbo »

My list

I missed several new games this year, simply not enough money/spare time – a real shame considering all the great new titles and ports of older classics. At least I had some time to visit my old favorites, such as Homura and Gradius Rebirth – very solid titles and quite underrated. And while we’re talking about underrated gems…

Flame Zapper Kotsujin definitely deserves more recognition. Took me completely off guard when I tried it for the first time. Such an awesome blend of raiden/raizing-ish gameplay elements with some phenomenal music. This game really reminded me why I love shooters so much.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by moozooh »

incognoscente wrote:If you can find more than 40 that you feel that you know something about, that's good enough for me. If not, keep playing and maybe you'll join us next year!
I wonder whether Treasurance has seen this before posting his list.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Battletoad »

I'll wait a little bit with my top 25 and try out ESPGaluda and Mushi to maybe place them in the list.
Two things are for sure though: Homura and Crimzon Clover will enter my list somewhere around the top spots. Nice to see that Crimzon Clover had some good places already.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Vyxx »

moozooh wrote:
incognoscente wrote:If you can find more than 40 that you feel that you know something about, that's good enough for me. If not, keep playing and maybe you'll join us next year!
I wonder whether Treasurance has seen this before posting his list.
Yeah, I mean we all have different taste, no doubt, but GOD DAMN that is a bad list :|
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Observer »

How come this list is that bad? He got some things right with Hellsinker, Crimzon Clover and RefleX. Without mentioning he's the second person who point out Diadra Empty, one of the most underrated horis around... And if he only had access to doujin games so what? My list is also well populated of doujin STGs :P Of course, few things can dethrone Armed Police Batrider, heh.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by Zaarock »

It's not a bad list for doujin games but he might not pass the requirements for entering (which are pretty vaque though) if he doesn't have experience with a lot of the popular shmups.

But eh, he is troll anyway :P

I am confused about people rating RefleX over Kamui :d Never gave the former a proper go but didn't find it as fun. More innovative, sure, but also very gimmicky.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by stryc9 »

Surprised I haven't seen Viewpoint on anyone else's list.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by mesh control »

stryc9 wrote:Surprised I haven't seen Viewpoint on anyone else's list.
There are others, unfortunately.
lol
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by stryc9 »

mesh control wrote:
stryc9 wrote:Surprised I haven't seen Viewpoint on anyone else's list.
There are others, unfortunately.
I'll take a wild stab and say your not a fan, eh?
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Are we still doing that "so many number of points" for a game, this year? God, that's weird, and is a pain. Sometimes I skip it, because of it.
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Re: 9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

Post by ncp »

evil_ash_xero wrote:Are we still doing that "so many number of points" for a game, this year? God, that's weird, and is a pain. Sometimes I skip it, because of it.
Is there any downside at all to having control over how much of your vote goes to which game... ??
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