Metal Slug 15th anniversary!

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Metal Slug rewards you handsomely for killing everything you see and not dying yourself throughout all the missions. Standard stuff you expect to see in a shooting game. Battle Garegga does the very opposite and slaps you with an atrocious rank inflation, forcing you into a highly counter-intuitive mindset to play. That's not how you describe a shooting game; that's how you describe a kusoge.

[BIL]

Metal Slug rewards you handsomely for killing everything you see and not dying yourself throughout all the missions.

Try getting the WR for any of the games by doing that and that alone. This is why MS is a bad game to play for score.

Standard stuff you expect to see in a shooting game. Battle Garegga does the very opposite and slaps you with an atrocious rank inflation, forcing you into a highly counter-intuitive mindset to play.

A game where you can't just blow everything up for the best scores? My videogame intuition is outraged.

That's not how you describe a shooting game; that's how you describe a kusoge.

If you're an unimaginative scrub, sure. Those not blinkered by "intuition" towards videogames (of all things) will actually give stuff like Garegga, Border Down, Shiki III etc a chance instead of rejecting them on principle. There are plenty of "JUST BLOW SHIT UP LOLOL" shooters out there already.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Try getting the WR for any of the games by doing that and that alone. This is why MS is a bad game to play for score.

lol, what a ridiculous thing to say. Hey guys, think I should give up playing Street Fighter? I mean, my Claw will never be as good as ARG's and all. Playing MS for score is still enjoyable if you find someone at your skill level to compete with. 2P mode may be strictly co-operative, but you can also use it competitively to cut down on all the potential point farming you usually see on solo play. I'm not a big fan of MS's scoring either, but I don't think it's a lost cause.

A game where you can't just blow everything up for the best scores? My videogame intuition is outraged.

If you're an unimaginative scrub, sure. Those not blinkered by "intuition" towards videogames (of all things) will actually give stuff like Garegga, Border Down, Shiki III etc a chance instead of rejecting them on principle. There are plenty of "JUST BLOW SHIT UP LOLOL" shooters out there already.

No, a game where you're not allowed to win PERIOD unless you know beforehand to force arbitrary restrictions onto yourself to avoid ranking issues. You shouldn't have to have learn all the ins and outs of an arcade game to beat it and put your initials on the hi score table. All I'm trying to say is if Raizing wanted to make a game where minimalism is the key to victory, they should have made it more clear. The way it is now would make it look like a coin graveyard to your average arcade goer. If there was say, an ammo count like in Ikari Warriors, then that would have gotten the message across clearly that you're going to have be more conservative if you want to win.

[BIL]

lol, what a ridiculous thing to say. Hey guys, think I should give up playing Street Fighter? I mean, my Claw will never be as good as ARG's and all. Playing MS for score is still enjoyable if you find someone at your skill level to compete with.

The difference being, the guy who can inevitably whip you at SFII will be better at the game in ways not involving ridiculously tedious playing methods. Unlike whoever's the world's #1 MS3 scorer, who will outclass you if you've merely blasted through the game saving prisoners and killing everything in sight without getting killed yourself.

I don't think MS's scoring is entirely worthless either. It's satisfying to rack up lots of POWs and all that while mowing down soldiers and tanks (like I said, I do love these games). This whole tangent kicked off when some nutjob implied every other game's scoring is a lost cause by comparison because he finished MS1 without jumping very often.

No, a game where you're not allowed to win PERIOD unless you know beforehand to force arbitrary restrictions onto yourself to avoid ranking issues. You shouldn't have to have learn all the ins and outs of an arcade game to beat it and put your initials on the hi score table.

You're not going to 1CC any decent arcade shooter without knowing its ins and outs. All of these games will trip you up in some way until you've put the time+money into them. Garegga doesn't have Irem corridor traps or Psiyko 1000MPH patterns, singling it out for increasing enemy resistance in response to the player's own firepower is myopic. Rank had been prominent in arcade STGs since at least Gradius in 1985, it's not some arcane trap only blind luck could discern.

All I'm trying to say is if Raizing wanted to make a game where minimalism is the key to victory, they should have made it more clear. The way it is now would make it look like a coin graveyard to your average arcade goer. If there was say, an ammo count like in Ikari Warriors, then that would have gotten the message across clearly that you're going to have be more conservative if you want to win.

Fair enough. Lots of good shooters could've done things in slightly more user-friendly terms, they're still worth getting to grips with.

[JoshF]

Playing Garegga and limiting your firepower to get a Good Rank flavored Skittle is awesome and balanced and complex but playing Metal Slug and trying to get 100% accuracy is broken, asinine, and tedious. It's because you don't get a Skittle, you see. If this makes sense to you, you have a problem with abstractifying mechanics and don't understand that the performance is what matters and score is just a numerical representation of a certain type of performance, convenient for easy comparison, but ultimately inessential since the possibility is still there without DEM NUMBURS.

You forgot the question mark after "sane."

Remember when that Danmaku Gata guy went all A Beautiful Mind a couple years back? NUMMBBURRRSS!

[BIL]

If this makes sense to you, you have a problem with abstractifying mechanics and don't understand that the performance is what matters and score is just a numerical representation of a certain type of performance, convenient for easy comparison, but ultimately inessential since the possibility is still there without DEM NUMBURS.

Denial.

I'm deeply sorry your precious, perfect videogame is a joke where high-level scoring is concerned. But you don't have to go into a frothing autistic frenzy at me over this unfortunate fact. I like MS1-3 so much I don't bother with any other sidescrolling run and guns. I'm just not pretentious or insane enough to suggest people who note it's a terrible game to play for score are somehow deficient.

Maybe one of these days I'll stop playing stuff with viable scoring and try to get good enough at MSX that I can record myself 1LCing it while juggling running chainsaws with my feet. I'll still correct loony fanboys when they try to argue this in any way constitutes a good game to play for score.

the performance is what matters

No kidding. I'm not the one conflating bad scoring design with low performance ceilings here. A game could have mechanics supporting the most skilled, nuanced performances conceivable - if getting the best scores required bogging it down into this this instead of this it'd still be terrible to play for score. If you've got to redefine scoring as "beating the game without jumping" to white knight for a game, that is a clue.

[JoshF]

Decided to check for sure the least amount of jumps required to No Miss MS1 and it's 34. Here's how it breaks down:

Stage 1:3
Stage 2:5
Stage 3:23
Stage 4: 3
Stage 5: 0
Stage 6: 0

If you've got to redefine scoring as "beating the game without jumping" to white knight for a game, that is a clue.

I'm just getting the low jump bonus without the designers whacking me off for it with numbers. I can whack myself off. Try to beat my score!

[BIL]

There you have it folks - going for the Metal Slug WR causes retardation and compulsive jump counting. Either that or Josh was raped by a mathematician.

[BulletMagnet]

This thread's tone needs to change or I'm closing it.

[austere]

How about I edit Metal Slug 1 to count the number of jumps you do and remove the score at the end. Suddenly JoshF is very obviously right (he's already as right as one can be, but it's not obvious for some people!) since Metal Slug 1: Jump Edition 2k11 has an excellent and very fun scoring system. There's a strict ceiling, but you can think of it as a counter stop (and hell, I could display it as one). There's no need to though, the visibly expressed Metal Slug scoring system is on par with a lot of other games which are popular around here...

There you have it folks - going for the Metal Slug WR causes retardation and compulsive jump counting.

There you have it folks - going for the Battle Garrega WR causes compulsive suicidal tendencies.

[BIL]

Go ahead and create Metal Slug: Jump Edition 2K11. It'll put the game about on par with Hyper Duel, the shooter where you score by moving as little as possible.

Oh, and by Josh's logic, you don't need to suicide in Garegga for a killer score at all. KET already got the WR in Battle Garegga: No Miss Label. But the more famous Battle Garegga White Label doesn't turn into a total bore when you're going for the top of the HS table, unlike Metal Slug: No DIY Hacks Label, so people tend to just play that instead.

[Arcatech]

I understand 3 is hard for all the wrong reasons. But I simply dont care!

I play slugs because I used to play contra for nes over and over again when i was a kid. Now I can loop contra like nobodys business.

3 is fun because its like climbing mt. everest. and I love to hike.

[mesh control]

ITT: We talk about horrible scoring systems.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I understand 3 is hard for all the wrong reasons. But I simply dont care!

No, no, no, please ignore all the bad things you've heard about MS3 on this forum; those people don't know art when they see it.

[stryc9]

For goodness sake. Metal Slug are solid run n guns, but average when played for score. And I was always under the impression that they weren't the fairest games to ever grace the arcades either, always erring on the side of throwing more than a few cheap situations your way. Part 1 maybe an exception (1 and 7 i haven't played properly yet), but lets face it, the series seems to be focused on selling it's 2D graphics and stealing pocket change from the player than delivering a well-balanced experience.

Beyond a 1CC, having to invent your own clandestine scoring technique to justify the series' worth as competitive titles just exposes the inherrant flaw in the games original design and subsequent 'incremental' re-design.

There is no reason you couldn't drop a more complex exponential scoring system into a new MS. As simple as some sort of over mode/fever, I dunno, it kind of worked in NIN NIN Jump.

Ah well. It was either this or the My Little Pony thread

[renardqueenston]

1 and X are my faves. X comes first though; it's crazy and it's just the right length, and never feels too strenuous. i think 1 was a little bit on the tame side as far as the design went overall. 3 is a solid game but damn, i almost always stop playing as soon as i hit the final mission. it is just too long for me, and each section of it is a credit feed frenzy for me. i actually liked 5 as well, from what i remember. but i don't remember much.

i've never played them for score, just for survival, and am usually able to 1cc X (and 1 takes 2-3 credits because i'm not as familiar). 3 takes me a solid 20 credits to get through though, no matter how hard i try to memorize it. it's the stage equivalent to SNK boss syndrome

actually, i don't really play many games at all for score, so i can't really comment. metal slug has never seemed all that score-friendly, though. weird bonuses and all that. aren't some of the item bonuses totally random in the first game at least? i'm not all that educated but i've heard a lot about how weird it is about some stuff.

[stryc9]

It's about time the series got a reinvention. Part of that reinvention should include implementing a more tangible scoring system and balancing out the actual level design, first and foremost IMO.

SNKP has run this series ragged, along with KOF (whose last entry ended in disaster), and as sad as it sounds I'm not sure they have the creative direction and willingness to push the envelope to fundamentally change the game the way it probably needs to be.

They're gonna have to change the sprites sometime, at least.

[Skykid]

It's about time the series got a reinvention.

That's pretty much what I was saying on the 1st page. MS is so stale these days.

[stryc9]

It's about time the series got a reinvention.

That's pretty much what I was saying on the 1st page. MS is so stale these days.

What do you reckon, Skykid? CAVE style scoring system or the SOTN route?
Either way I'de like to see HD assets sometime ala KOF 12. Would seem a bit much for SNKP, though.

[1up]

Ive only player ms1 for score and its pretty straight forward. Only Real problem is the soc glitch whereas you just s tand and shoot for 10 minutes. Apartheid from that i see nothing wrong with it?

I like the idea of a deep scoring system, but how would that work? Combo meter, chaining,.... Are thèrese any other 2d run n guns with a decent scoring system?

[JoshF]

What do you reckon, Skykid? CAVE style scoring system or the SOTN route?

For the love of God they better not go the SOTN route. Shotgun + Shield Rod = beat the last boss in 1 hit!

That said, I wouldn't mind an arranged mode in the home release that played like First and Second Mission, which used an adventure formula much improved from the SOTN one.

A good start to freshen up the formula would be to add 8 way air dashing and hovering (like in Rockman X4.) It could make sense visually if you gave them a rocket pack and they've worn them before. I'd also add Contra-style wall climbing. By increasing the movement options you can increase the craziness of the obstacles without increasing the challenge of past game (though you could.) However you would REALLY need to ramp up the obstacle designs with a system like this or it would become like a 3D platformer where the extra moves like ledge-hanging, double jumping, and hovering are just crutches and not intended to allow more interesting obstacle design. If I get bored today I might jot down a good system in my sketch book. Needless to say scoring is the last thing the designers of a future Metal Slug should think about.

Apartheid from that

LOL what the hell? This could be a great line in a bad joke.

[Vamos]

I love metal slug but i feel there are enough now , id love for the team behind it to do another different run n gun series.

[Skykid]

I love metal slug but i feel there are enough now , id love for the team behind it to do another different run n gun series.

Yep, this is more my thinking. Just as much visual beauty and love and care, but with faster and more furious physics, fatter weaponry that has real oomph (and doesn't run out after 4 seconds), and less general tedium. I want to plough through large obstacles, not wear them down with pea-shooters.

And some more daring level design would be nice too. Variety is the spice, I want something with more pace that evolves several times a stage.

All pipe dreams of course: Metal Slug is financially hinged around being able to continually reuse sprites and backgrounds - having to actually draw something new would probably be out of the allotted budget. Hence the reason it's been stale for so long.

[wiNteR]

I am playing the first one in an old version of mame plus to avoid the slowdown. But the overclock settings seem to reset everytime I run the game again. Any way to change this?

[Mortificator]

You could make a save state after adjusting the CPU. It's not as good a solution as the emulator just storing your change, but pressing F7 & a key is better than messing with the sliders every time.

Speaking of the original Metal Slug, I'd never noticed before that the enemies that attack you on the bridge in the final mission are dependent on your position at the time.

[mizuiroRSG]

Oooh! I like Metal Slug! I remember I played the hell out of X when I was at the old laundromat long time ago. The third is considered as the magnum opus of the series IMO. Subsequent entries after 3, not so much.

It's about time the series got a reinvention.

That's pretty much what I was saying on the 1st page. MS is so stale these days.

What do you reckon, Skykid? CAVE style scoring system or the SOTN route?
Either way I'de like to see HD assets sometime ala KOF 12. Would seem a bit much for SNKP, though.

I agree on you chaps. This whole series needs a bigger overhaul. The sprites are now 15 years old, and these are already out of style. The new sprites could be the way to make the series great again as it once used to be.

[wiNteR]

You could make a save state after adjusting the CPU. It's not as good a solution as the emulator just storing your change, but pressing F7 & a key is better than messing with the sliders every time.

Actually, I just tried the game yesterday for the first time and that's why I didn't notice this. Saves a lot of inconvenience.

[Koa Zo]

Am I mistaken, or is it correct that a player gets many more points for knifing an enemy than they do for shooting one?

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Yes that is correct. One of the noteworthy things about MS4 was that the 2 new characters were awarded points differently for their melee attacks; Trevor's briefly immobilized him and he got even more for it.

[jpj]

MS1 is a boring game to play for score, for sure. the vid josh linked is probably the single worst example of point-milking in the series (though if you play it on an actual MVS it's nice to have a quick cigarette break )

X and 3 are the best for scoring i feel. first time i saw UDA get in the plane on stage 3 and hover over the soldier's shield was both games have lots of cool little tricks like that. MS1 just has the 1,000 point cannon trick really

my only other bug bear is random points for certain items. let's say you're playing X, there are numerous instances in the game where an item will appear at a set location, and can either give you 30,000 points, 300 points, or sometimes zero points. quite a kicker when a good run is over 2 hours long