Osama Bin Laden is dead

[Acid King]

I have actually only skimmed it, but I had watched Hersh's report a while ago. My point was the risk of weapons transfer was not so great (not likelyhood, risk, which means potential damage caused by it compounded by that likelyhood) as to prevent a war from occurring. Like I said, whoever would end up with the warheads is faced with the same dilemma as Pakistan faces during a war. The existence of a plan means this might be a risk the US is willing to take in order to conduct a war, do you agree with me on that point?

I agree that it doesn't necessarily preclude a war, but I'd also say that with the lack of good intelligence on the whereabouts of their nuclear devices that it would be a pretty big gamble at this point, especially considering it could ruin whatever progress has been made in Afghanistan.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Al Qaeda confirms Bin Laden's death, calls for retaliation.

I must admit my mind is like this 99% of the time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGdlJWfx ... re=related

But i'm sure everyone can agree that proclaming his death suites the Jihadists best even if its BS

[Udderdude]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... ce/?hpt=T1

[Skykid]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... ce/?hpt=T1

[Udderdude]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13323060

[Skykid]

But the clips' release is part of an ongoing effort by the US administration to convince doubters that Osama Bin Laden was killed in last Monday's raid, says our correspondent.

So why can't we have the audio ffs?

[GaijinPunch]

So why can't we have the audio ffs?

The US never, ever plays the audio from known terrorists. They could have commands for sleeper cells in them. Them not doing it now is not surprising in the least.

[Lloyd Mangram]

But the clips' release is part of an ongoing effort by the US administration to convince doubters that Osama Bin Laden was killed in last Monday's raid, says our correspondent.

So why can't we have the audio ffs?

Pentagon officials have removed audio from the film, citing security concerns, but said it was a message to the United States.

The intelligence official said the audio was removed because it would be "inappropriate to spread the words of terrorists and propaganda messages, especially Osama bin Laden."

Would you expect the US to help spread whatever messages Osama was attempting to deliver in those vids?

[Skykid]

So why can't we have the audio ffs?

The US never, ever plays the audio from known terrorists. They could have commands for sleeper cells in them. Them not doing it now is not surprising in the least.

Fair enough. I didn't see anything malicious about him watching TV though.

[Drum]

So why can't we have the audio ffs?

The US never, ever plays the audio from known terrorists. They could have commands for sleeper cells in them. Them not doing it now is not surprising in the least.

Fair enough. I didn't see anything malicious about him watching TV though.

Apparently there's footage of him watching Big Bang Theory. That's pretty bad.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Apparently there's footage of him watching Big Bang Theory. That's pretty bad

if thats true then the US government should consider releasing it. Some devout muslims I know of dont have tv at home so it might help to discredit the guy.

[Drum]

But they won't be able to watch it :(

[TrevHead (TVR)]

They can access it through the tinternet Or atleast the educated muslims can. I presume that OBL is a bad muslim to all the moderates in the world, releasing real evidence of him been a been a bad muslim might strain relations with al-Qaeda and its supporters around the world

[Skykid]

Watching Big Bang Theory is enough to discredit anyone.

[GaijinPunch]

Watching Big Bang Theory is enough to discredit anyone.

I guess you were not the normal person amongst a group of geeks. If you were, it's entertaining.

[GaijinPunch]

60 Minutes Interview w/ Obama

If it wasn't clearly fake, I'd say that it was really awesome.

[Skykid]

60 Minutes Interview w/ Obama

If it wasn't clearly fake, I'd say that it was really awesome.

It's an awesome 60 minutes of re-election PR. With adverts.

[GaijinPunch]

How should it have been then?

[Skykid]

How should it have been then?

Non-existent?

Plenty of insightful reading here for those with even a little apprehension.

[dcharlie]

... 2 year old fake OBL pics keep coming round and round i see? Seems that the conspiracy doesn't fact check what it wants to bring up either!

I dunno - this is all starting to look a bit sad.

[Skykid]

... 2 year old fake OBL pics keep coming round and round i see?


I dunno - this is all starting to look a bit sad

Been looking sad for a very long time.

Worth reading the texts rather than just looking at the pretty piccies though.

[dcharlie]

Worth reading the texts rather than just looking at the pretty piccies though.

some one else already posted it to me - already read it. Incedently the same person who confidently told me that no one was killed on the 9/11 flights because the passanger list was faked (which was a bit weird given my wifes school friend was on one of the flights - but hey! that is by the by and not really pertinent)

*shrug*

I'm more than happy to listen to some concrete arguments but the counter points all seem to be "And he died in 2001 - but we can't really prove it" , "but this is unislamic! can't be him", "his beard ! it was grey - now it is black!!!"

there are some points that are , at best, interesting but most of the thing is paper thin - so if the US version is unbelievable then so is this.

Personally? I'm sure there's bullshit gallore on both sides and the truth is somewhere in the grey zone, but again - the conspiracy is on even worse shakey ground than the official line so when the official line is out right "bullshit" but this link is not ? I dunno man...


Out of interest, what other conspiracies do you subscribe to?

[Skykid]

Out of interest, what other conspiracies do you subscribe to?

None, I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

Personally? I'm sure there's bullshit gallore on both sides and the truth is somewhere in the grey zone, but again - the conspiracy is on even worse shakey ground than the official line.

I don't agree. I think it's clear that the official line is totally incongruous and therefore should be considered at least as equally shaky as the opposing viewpoint.

there are some points that are , at best, interesting but most of the thing is paper thin - so if the US version is unbelievable then so is this.

If as a collective of information (rather than being pinpointed and dismissed as individual falsehoods) the entire adverse opinion is 'paper thin', I would consider it on par with the official version of events.

The page I linked contains documentation from US newspapers, FBI reports, Osama interviews with Al Jazeera in 2001 claiming he takes no responsibility for 9/11, Switzerlands IDIAP denouncing the official CIA audio findings as "being recorded by an imposter" amongst many others, rather than out and out baseless conjecture.
Each side shoots melon sizes holes in each other. I don't recommend you choose either, but if you're not at least sitting on the fence then sensible judgement needs a phone call.

[dcharlie]

jeeeesus - i just pressed the back button at the bottom of that link.

OOOOOoooooookay, i'm stepping away. Directed Energy Weapons and 9/11 ? Ability to set of Earthquakes remotely?

I love that in the midst of all this there is a warning that before considering all this you have to weed out the tinfoil hat wearing crackpots!!!

[Skykid]

jeeeesus - i just pressed the back button at the bottom of that link.

Ignore the back button (I didn't even see it). The stuff on that page is the only relevant info to this thread, and contains examples of material released publicly that is in opposition to the official story and therefore worth acknowledging. It's up to you to decide whether you think it's credible, not to whoop up and down like a cowboy and crow "conspiracy" like it actually means anything.

It's obvious you're not interested in even fence sitting, so there's no point retreading old ground.

He's dead, you win.

[Udderdude]

Everyone in this thread who has shown even the remotest support for the idea that the US govt. is lying about Osama is a huge conspiracy nut who believes the moon landing was faked, Elvis is still alive, Obama was born in Switzerland, Jesus was Hitler and HAARP/NWO/aliens/shapeshifting reptoids are all real.

For serious.

[Icarus]

Obama was born in Switzerland

You mean he wasn't??! *mind blown*

[dcharlie]

It's obvious you're not interested in even fence sitting, so there's no point retreading old ground.

I'm an habitual fence sitter! I just think that in this particular case the full fleshed out alternatives in this link take as an alternative looks less likely than the official version. I don't believe the official version note for note either, but there are way too many moving parts in the alternative for me personally to consider it likely.

He's dead, you win.

I thought we agreed that he was dead, now we are just concerned about the posibility of a conspiracy regarding a cover up of when ?

Is now a good time to mention i'm not American? naaa... i'll leave it.

[Skykid]

Is now a good time to mention i'm not American? naaa... i'll leave it.

I already knew that.

[adversity1]

Known organizations/movements who have collaborated with the Al Queda network:

・Jamaat el Islami
・Taliban (both Afghan and Pakistani)
・Lashkar-e-Taiba
・Al Shabaab (Somalia)

Let's see if any of these organizations are denying the death of the great mujahid. Given the claims and furtive counter-hypotheses advanced by Skykid and austere, that Bin Laden was actually dead before the Navy Seals raid, all the way back in December 2001, certainly it would make sense for these Al Queda-affiliated movements to clarify that hey, Sheikh Osama bin Laden has been dead for years, where have you guys been??

Now before we get started, I want Skykid and austere to pay special attention to the statement by the Taliban's Quetta Shura (leadership council) a couple paragraphs down. I will be most excited to read your enlightening refutation of their statements.

Starting off slow, here's the Jamaat el Islami rally against Bin Laden raid:


Lashkar-e-Taiba rally and prayers for Bin Laden held in several cities and towns around Pakistan.
http://www.smartlinkx.com/latest-news/l ... -pakistan/


Somalia's al Shabaab vows to avenge bin Laden



http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... 5020110507

After news broke of bin Laden's death in Pakistan some al Shabaab combatants in the Somali capital Mogadishu wore white as a sign of grief, residents said.

"We shall redouble our jihad and we shall overpower our enemies. Osama is not the first martyr, may God rest his soul," al Shabaab spokesman Sheikh Ali Mohamud Rage told reporters on Saturday.

"We shall never divert from the path of Sheikh Osama and we shall continue the jihad till we taste the death our brother Osama faced, or achieve victory and rule the whole world," he said in the capital Mogadishu.

Posters to jihadist websites mourn, celebrate bin Laden

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiap ... ist.sites/

"Congratulations for dying as a martyr and a fighter in the sake of Allah," one poster wrote.

Many of the Web posters on Monday reacted to bin Laden's death by referring to him as a "shaheed," or martyr. One was headlined "The Lion of Jihad was killed in a fierce battle."
Some mourned.
"Teary eyes and sad hearts go out to you, the dearest and most noble of people." one poster wrote.

Pakistan: Taliban fighters hold bin Laden memorial

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/intern ... ent_bullet

An intelligence official and local tribal chief say several hundred Taliban fighters held a memorial service for Osama bin Laden in Pakistan’s tribal region.

They say the mourners hailed the slain al-Qaida chief and shouted slogans against America and Pakistan. The service took place Monday in Wana, the main town in South Waziristan.

South Waziristan was the Pakistani Taliban’s main sanctuary before the army launched an offensive in 2009.

The Taliban's Quetta Shura (high council) calls Bin Laden's death a great tragedy

http://www.shahamat-english.com/index.p ... s&Itemid=4

(Please be aware that the above is a link to the official English page of the Afghan Taliban, please access with caution)

Statement of the Leadership Council of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Regarding the Martyrdom of the Great Martyr Sheik Osama bin Laden.
Among the believers, there are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah. Some fulfilled their vow by death and some are still awaiting and they have not changed in the least. ( S:33-V:23)
The Caller to Islamic Jihad against the invading infidels, Sheikh Osama bin Laden, embraced martyrdom as per the Will of the Almighty Allah during an abrupt attack by the American invading soldiers.(We are creation of Allah and return to Him.)

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan extends its deep condolence to the family of the martyr, to his followers and to fighter Mujahideen of the way of Truth and to the Islamic Ummah on this occasion of the great tragedy. We pray to the Almighty Allah to accept, in His Sight, the sacrifice of the martyr. May, the Almighty Allah, salvage the Islamic Ummah from the current situation of crisis due to the impact of the blessing of the sacred Jihad and martyrdom of the martyr.

Will the people who provided the 2001 Fox News story as evidence that Bin Laden was already dead retract their statements given these remarks by the Quetta Shura?

That story, which was the entire crux of the argument that Osama bin Laden had died in 2001, and was sourced from an unnamed "Taliban leader", is proven definitely false by the statement above. This is the highest leadership of the Taliban making a public statement about his assassination by US forces.

Al Qaeda confirms bin Laden death and vows revenge

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/ ... 8A20110506

"In a historic day for the great Islamic nation... the mujahid (holy warrior) Shiekh Abu Abdullah, Osama bin Mohammed bin Laden, God have mercy on him, was killed on the path taken by those before him and will be taken by others after him."

"Congratulations to the Islamic umma (community) for the martyrdom of its son Osama."

The global militant group, which said it will soon release an audio tape made by its leader a week before he died, vowed not to deviate from the path of armed struggle and said bin Laden's blood "is more precious to us and to every Muslim than to be wasted in vain."

"It will remain, with permission from God Almighty, a curse that hunts the Americans and their collaborators and chase them outside and inside their country," the militant network said in a statement released on Islamist Internet forums.

"Their happiness will turn into sorrow, and their blood will be mixed with their tears," al Qaeda said.

"We call upon our Muslim people in Pakistan, on whose land Sheikh Osama was killed, to rise up and revolt to cleanse this shame that has been attached to them by a clique of traitors and thieves ... and in general to cleanse their country from the filth of the Americans who spread corruption in it."

Egyptian Bin Laden supporters rally


Summing up again for emphasis:

・Jamaat el Islami
・Taliban (both Afghan and Pakistani)
・Lashkar-e-Taiba
・Al Shabaab (Somalia)

and Al-Queda itself have all confirmed the death of Osama bin Laden, variously mourning, protesting or promising more and deadlier attacks in revenge for the hit.

・Bin Laden wives
・Bin Laden's daughter

are in Pakistani government custody and have given accounts of OBL's residence at the compound and his death.

I await the insightful comments of our resident Middle East expert Skykid and DNA analysis czar, austere.

I would also like to hear from Udderdude and anyone else who expressed support for the "dead in 2001" story to react to the mysterious statement by the Quetta Shura in 2011. You were willing to believe a nameless Taliban leader that the man was dead in 2001, are you ready to believe the actual Leadership Council that he was killed in 2011?
-------------------------------------

Now then, back to austere.

Yet again, concrete evidence if they are released and independent reporters are allowed to have access to them. Especially the 12 year old daughter, who could in theory be DNA tested and matched to bin laden's corpse.

So you won't believe that the man was killed until his 12 year old daughter, who has already given statements verifying her father's assassination, is DNA tested. A process that would only be undertaken by the US or Pakistani government, two states whose statements you have not shown any trust for. What independent organization could possibly convince you that this girl is Bin Laden's daughter via DNA testing?

Oh is he now? Let me destroy your little idol then, it's nothing. I didn't want to reply before because it would have forced me to be rude, but here it is, no holds barred.

Bahahahahaha. On the contrary, but of course once your mind is made up you'll find yourself agreeing either way. Even if you've proven your position as true, you haven't actually disproven what I've said, because all I have proposed is the fact that the ever changing narrative is AS OF YET UNPROVEN and there is evidence to the contrary.

Did you guys follow that? Even if I've proven that my position is true, I haven't disproven what austere is saying because his claim is only that the official narrative is not yet proven. Among truther circles this practice is known as Just Asking Questions (affectionately abbreviated as JAQ-ing off). Problem is that my position is that yes, the official account (insofar that Bin Laden was killed in a raid by the US on a compound in Pakistan, in 2011) is in fact true and easily verifiable. So if I've proven my position, I have, by definition, disproven yours.

BBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTT, see the conversation above with louisg, which you have quoted and completely ignored my replies of stating it was unaddressed. Just because you did not understand the logical refutation of it, does not mean it was unaddressed. It just means you have failed to understand my position, which is entirely compatible with your current behaviour.

Right, and what I asked you in my initial reply (which you conveniently skipped) was to specify at what levels of the US government the secret of Bin Laden already being dead could have been kept. Let me repeat:

I didn't say anything about Wikileaks being 100% transparent. But I do think that Wikileaks as an organization has possibly done more to expose the inner workings of governments and further the cause of human rights than the UN has in 60 years. Exposure of US military massacres in Iraq, details on torture carried out at Guantanamo, 80,000 docs in the Afghan War Diary, 400,000 in the Iraq War Logs. Revelations that helped cause popular revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt. Cables from the ambassador level to the Secretary of State, down to day-to-day military operations.

Exactly at what level of secrecy, and in what department of the US government (you can speculate!) do you think the information that OBL was actually dead, has been held? And why would it not have been leaked?

I am perfectly reasonable in describing you as a conspiracy theorist, the core of your theory is a conspiracy to hide Bin Laden's death from the general public.

That's not what a conspiracy theorist is meant to be, it's meant to be the other hand of the quote I gave you, a person who refuses to believe the official narrative no matter what evidence is presented.

Is this what you think of me, adversity1?

You just asked for a DNA test of a 12 year old girl to make sure she's actually OBL's daughter, and you are outraged when I call you a conspiracy theorist.



A person who refuses to believe a particular explanation, whether it is official or not, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, is a dogmatist. Certainly I think this word describes you and Skykid, but usually dogmatists have more engaging arguments, are able to quote from holy books etc. to justify themselves. Instead all you have is Fox News in 2001 and whatever bullshit jewelry website Skykid just posted.

I call you a conspiracy theorist because the source of your "questions" and "doubts" about the reality of Bin Laden's death in Pakistan is an unstated meta-narrative in which the US government is capable of keeping secret that OBL's death, the main motivation for the 2001 Afghan war, already happened 10 years ago. No matter at what level of secrecy you think this information is hidden, it requires a conspiracy to hold the information from the public.

Still, if the thread remains open, I will be happy to hold people to their claims as they have made them.

Cool, because as far as I've read no one actually made any claims but you and your ilk. i.e. people claiming to know more than I do.

I am certainly happy to present a coherent narrative to the extent that it is available.

The evasive approach is to, as yourself, Udderdude and Skykid have all done, post some links, cast doubt on the one reasonable explanation that is out there, and refuse to admit you were wrong even when the facts are on the table.

Just because I presented evidence contrary to the home video narrative etc., doesn't mean I believe said evidence is absolutely true. Just like I don't believe the home videos constituted any reliable evidence at all, given the number of verified fakes and especially the one in 2007 where his beard was dyed. So the theory that he in fact died from his illness made more sense than the official one, given the lack of real public appearances.

The bolded part is telling of a cowardly approach to argument.

If his current death is proven (which now it can be thanks to the capture of his alleged family members) then it doesn't necessarily prove the videos and audiotapes, which are riddled with problems, are real. I'm sorry I'm not one to jump to conclusions, but it comes with my training.

I would not claim that all of the video and audio tapes are real, I do not have the command of Arabic necessary to distinguish subtleties, nor am I especially versed in video manipulation. The problem for your "doubts" and "skepticism" though, is that if any video or audio recording is real after 2001 (and there are many of the 35 that have been verified by independent experts and the Al-Jazeera network), that means that he was alive and transmitting, and the bunk narrative of his death in 2001 falls apart.

That's why "skeptics" have to deny the entire catalogue of communiques. It will be much more difficult now though with all the terrorist organizations issuing official statements mourning his death. How will you find time to deny them all?

Believe it or not there's three _logical_ positions you can take on this story:

- True
- False
- Unverified

Even with the alleged capture of his family, the official tale is still UNVERIFIED. To claim otherwise is to be absolutely retarded.

Thanks for your insight. In terms of the overall narrative, I certainly put OBL's 2011 assassination in the "TRUE" (did happen!) category.

Really though, you have spent too much time arguing with me, my friend! You should be taking this brilliant analysis to these guys:

・Jamaat el Islami
・Taliban (both Afghan and Pakistani)
・Lashkar-e-Taiba
・Al Shabaab (Somalia)
・Al Queda

all of whom seem to have been fooled into believing that their great brother mujahid has been killed by the American dogs in May 2011. I can't explain it myself! MK Ultra, chlorine?! Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu 1.5? Look austere, this is your time to shine, I predict great things for you. You're going to be a real bridge between civilizations. Don't waste any more time on us at the shmups board, not while they're waiting on your incisive analysis in Lahore, in Sana'a, in Mogadishu.

Go forth brave sir with your gallant slogan:

"DNA test for a 12-year old girl, or it's all fucking bullshit!"