What CAVE did.

[DocHauser]

Explosive Breaker by Kaneko came out a year before Batsugun and also had a smaller hitbox on your ship. Except no-one really talks about that game because it's got bad graphics and not much of a scoring system, so it's not very popular.

[Jeneki]

Kaneko has a history of making the hit box slightly smaller than the ship. Air Buster is really obvious on the Death Circus level, you have to squeeze through up/down sections just a bit less wide than your ship is.

But I think we're talking about the really small hitboxes, not just smaller than the ship.

[Hair]

I need to check out some Kaneko games.

I should have phrased my point about Cave's hitboxes differently. I wasn't sure what the first shmup with a smaller and not-sprite-shaped hitbox was, but Cave certainly took it to a more extreme degree. The difference of scale is large enough that it played a hand in making a new genre.

But I didn't know that Cho Ren Sha was that early of a game.

Also, was the laser in DonPachi the first alternate fire mechanism that slowed down your ship while making it more powerful against single targets? Now, having a way to slow your ship down is common, as are seperate weapons (and speeds attached to them) for waves of enemies, or single enemies and bosses. I could be wrong again, but I think Cave was one of the first to do this, and it is now a staple of bullet hell gameplay.

Batsugun's blonde guy had spread and focus weapons based on whether you were holding or tapping fire, which Cave also uses a lot, but there was no way to slow your ship down. Cho Ren Sha and Garegga don't have spread/focus options, nor a slower ship speed.

A main draw for me to many bullet hell games is how you can move around quickly during bullet herding, and then move slower with more control during spammy parts and bosses. The fact that the slower speed often means a focused attack as well is just natural.

I'm probably not going to fire up Batsugun or Garegga on my Saturn tonight though, because I'm just taking a little break from my new Pork/Sweets disc to post and will be playing that all night.

[Evilmaxwar]

BTW, I have often heard that "manic" and bullet hell are basically the same genre, but I've also heard the term "manic" used to describe pre-bullet hell games like Batsugun, Garegga, and even DDP and "bullet hell" to describe later games with more spam and more bullets. Anyone feel one way other the other?

A while ago Ive read someone saying (probably on this forum) that bullet hell was more bullet covering, slower bullets, more fixed patterns. And manic less bullet coverage but faster bullets and more aimed shots. Interesting perspective but is it worth anything? We need a shmupopedia.

[mjclark]

BTW, I have often heard that "manic" and bullet hell are basically the same genre, but I've also heard the term "manic" used to describe pre-bullet hell games like Batsugun, Garegga, and even DDP and "bullet hell" to describe later games with more spam and more bullets. Anyone feel one way other the other?

A while ago Ive read someone saying (probably on this forum) that bullet hell was more bullet covering, slower bullets, more fixed patterns. And manic less bullet coverage but faster bullets and more aimed shots. Interesting perspective but is it worth anything? We need a shmupopedia.

There is of course an Unofficial Shmup Glossary thread on this very forum which has entries for both "Bullet Hell" and "Manic Shmup" though it doesn't seem to really differentiate between the two.
Of course "danmaku" means "bullet curtain" implying that the screen is covered over with bullets a la CAVE, whereas "manic" has a connotation of speed and unpredictability

[PC Engine Fan X!]

A pretty good example of manic shmups would be some the arcade titles from Psikyo themselves (some the homing bullet patterns move faster than your character/fightercraft does in the later stages on the first loop & even more so on the second loop -- i.e. Gunbird 2 & Strikers 1999/Strikers 1945 III).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[ptoing]

Psikyo imo is not manic, just dirt cheap money grabbing memorization bullshit. But that's just me.

[Demetori]

Appealed to thousands of loligoobers across the globe.

Next generation of Cave fans becoming Touhou fans?
When will we see the first "which cave-character would you sleep with?-thread" with 20+ pages of serious answers?

When you put it like that.... I'd sleep with Batan Saionji from Akai Katana..... Serious, as ever.

[DocHauser]

Psikyo imo is not manic, just dirt cheap money grabbing memorization bullshit. But that's just me.

Someone on the Raiden poll said they weren't a fan of the memorization of the Raiden Fighters games, now Psikyo games are memorizers too. To me, I'd have said these games were the complete opposite of typical memorizer-type shmups. Sometimes I think people use the term 'memorizer' as shorthand for 'a shmup I don't like'.

But then I prefer Psikyo to Cave games, so what do I know?

[NzzpNzzp]

Raiden Fighters does take a lot of memorising. Boss attacks come out so fast that there's no way you can react to them if you don't already know what's coming.
Also memorising where all the secrets are too.

[DocHauser]

Yeah, memorising the secrets is one thing, but that's playing for score. I'm thinking of R-Type style memorising just to survive, and I don't think that applies to RFJ. Anyway, what shmups don't require some amount of memorisation if you're playing for score? It always seems like a weird criticism to me.

[NzzpNzzp]

But it's not just scoring. If you don't already know what's coming, like half the bosses have attacks that are nearly unavoidable, unless you have insanely good reflexes. Hard levels like Sand Lobster's and both Real Battles will screw you if you don't know what's coming so you can be in the right places at the right times. The entire game is like that if you're playing the really slow planes like Eraser or Beast Wing, or if you're using a plane with a charge attack like Chaser. The faster the game, the harder it is to react, and so the more you need to rely on knowing what's coming. RF is pretty fast, so...

And if you don't play Jet for score you're basically doing it wrong anyway. Not gonna get to any of the good levels like that, are you?

[DocHauser]

I see your point, but I still don't think RFJ is a major memoriser. The levels are relatively short and the bosses don't take long to kill so it's not like you have to memorise a huge number of patterns and secrets. Same goes for Psikyo games. Fairly short levels again. I don't see it as a problem at all. If you're an expert at a certain shmup then you've probably put around 50-100 hours play time into it, so remembering the levels should come as second nature by that time.

I don't see 'memorisation' itself as a problem and I never criticise games for being 'memorisers'.

[neorichieb1971]

If you die, you remember how not to die the next time you play. Thats what gaming is.

[DocHauser]

If you die, you remember how not to die the next time you play. Thats what gaming is.

Yeah, exactly. But some people still complain about it.

[neorichieb1971]

Memorization is usually due to special weapons useage. Bombs, backwards fire, lasers.. Whatever. I find Gradius and most Horis to be more memorization candidates. Flying Shark has some rear guarding in some levels but for the most part verts are not memorization candidates imo.

[Rob]

Raiden Fighters does take a lot of memorising. Boss attacks come out so fast that there's no way you can react to them if you don't already know what's coming.

This is the kind of complaint I'd expect to see from casual bumblers.

-These games are meant to be replayed for many, many hours.
-A clear takes less than 20 minutes. That is less than 20 minutes (!) worth of obstacles and patterns to be aware of/memorize.
-The "cheap" increase in speed keeps the tension high even after you are aware of the patterns.

What Cave did:

-made shooting games pastel
-made new versions of dull, old timey scoring systems (proximity, chaining)
-gave players a feeling of accomplishment for doing nothing (200 bullets drift harmlessly off screen)

[dunpeal2064]

Raiden Fighters does take a lot of memorising. Boss attacks come out so fast that there's no way you can react to them if you don't already know what's coming.

This is the kind of complaint I'd expect to see from casual bumblers.

-These games are meant to be replayed for many, many hours.
-A clear takes less than 20 minutes. That is less than 20 minutes (!) worth of obstacles and patterns to be aware of/memorize.
-The "cheap" increase in speed keeps the tension high even after you are aware of the patterns.

What Cave did:

-made shooting games pastel
-made new versions of dull, old timey scoring systems (proximity, chaining)
-gave players a feeling of accomplishment for doing nothing (200 bullets drift harmlessly off screen)

Rob is awesome. However, I do not find Futari to be either proximity or chaining

Also, Pink Sweets and Ibara throw more bullets at you then they do of the screen.

Its much more accomplishing to run directly into the bullets with a sheild, eh?

Cuz every DC shmup didn't have some kind of cliche "now I don't even have to dodge" mechanism, and Gigawing totally isn't just a revamped Biometal

[ptoing]

Psikyo imo is not manic, just dirt cheap money grabbing memorization bullshit. But that's just me.

Someone on the Raiden poll said they weren't a fan of the memorization of the Raiden Fighters games, now Psikyo games are memorizers too. To me, I'd have said these games were the complete opposite of typical memorizer-type shmups. Sometimes I think people use the term 'memorizer' as shorthand for 'a shmup I don't like'.

But then I prefer Psikyo to Cave games, so what do I know?

Pretty much all Psikyo games have patterns, esp in the bossfights, where you have to know exactly where to be when or you die. There is not really room for freestyling your way out of a problem simply because the bullets are in your face before you even see them coming.
That to me is memorization. I am fine with memorization to a certain degree, I would say all shmups require it, but if it is too much and feels cheap (as it does to me in Psikyo stuff) it stops being fun.

[dunpeal2064]

Psikyo imo is not manic, just dirt cheap money grabbing memorization bullshit. But that's just me.

Someone on the Raiden poll said they weren't a fan of the memorization of the Raiden Fighters games, now Psikyo games are memorizers too. To me, I'd have said these games were the complete opposite of typical memorizer-type shmups. Sometimes I think people use the term 'memorizer' as shorthand for 'a shmup I don't like'.

But then I prefer Psikyo to Cave games, so what do I know?

Pretty much all Psikyo games have patterns, esp in the bossfights, where you have to know exactly where to be when or you die. There is not really room for freestyling your way out of a problem simply because the bullets are in your face before you even see them coming.
That to me is memorization. I am fine with memorization to a certain degree, I would say all shmups require it, but if it is too much and feels cheap (as it does to me in Psikyo stuff) it stops being fun.

I can'r disagree with you, there are patterns that are just brutal. However, I never find myself attempting to memorize psikyo games. I just play them, and slowly get further and further.

Comparing that progression to R-Type or Last Hope makes me unable to agree that those games are memorizers, nor are the Raiden fighters games. (at least no more than most bullet hell games.)

I guess the difference is, in a psikyo game, its 1 or 2 attacks a level that are really nasty. To me, a memorizer is like that through the whole game. I can barely get to stage 2 of last hope, and there are maybe 5 bullets on the screen when I die.

[Rob]

Its much more accomplishing to run directly into the bullets with a sheild, eh?

No comparison, since they aren't like traditional shooters (charging at bullets is as non-traditional as it gets). The bullets are there to be used, not dodged or canceled.

[Bananamatic]

CAVE is fun if you don't play for the score.

[nZero]

However, I do not find Futari to be either proximity or chaining

Original 1.5, Ultra 1.5, and especially Black Label Original would like to have a word with you.

Maniac 1.5 scoring involves a non-traditional form of chaining, as well.

[Drum]

Raiden Fighters does take a lot of memorising. Boss attacks come out so fast that there's no way you can react to them if you don't already know what's coming.

This is the kind of complaint I'd expect to see from casual bumblers.

-These games are meant to be replayed for many, many hours.
-A clear takes less than 20 minutes. That is less than 20 minutes (!) worth of obstacles and patterns to be aware of/memorize.
-The "cheap" increase in speed keeps the tension high even after you are aware of the patterns.

Nobody's complaining that it's too hard, just that it's the inane kind of hard. There are all kinds of ways to solve the problem of repeat plays being rote and unexciting - instant-death-unless-you-already-know-exactly-what-to-do is not a good solution. It is up there with chaining and proximity scoring in sheer banality, difference being that at least games that reward chaining/proximity reward chaining/proximity - that is to say, at least they aren't penalising you for failing to do it. Maybe even that is giving them too much credit, but it's something they have over the stuff you are defending.
Saying this, I wish I could think of a shooter that got it all right. Obv Cave games don't.
Halo, maybe?

[dunpeal2064]

However, I do not find Futari to be either proximity or chaining

Original 1.5, Ultra 1.5, and especially Black Label Original would like to have a word with you.

Maniac 1.5 scoring involves a non-traditional form of chaining, as well.

Ok, i guess i should have said that i dont feel like futaris scoring is just an old scoring system redone. Proximity does come onto play, and the gem shedding in bl especially, but there is still so much more going on

[Evilmaxwar]

Halo, maybe?

The first UT was perfect, if you do not count spam killing lol

[Drum]

Unreal Tournament

[Rob]

Nobody's complaining that it's too hard, just that it's the inane kind of hard.
...
There are all kinds of ways to solve the problem of repeat plays being rote and unexciting - instant-death-unless-you-already-know-exactly-what-to-do is not a good solution.

What are these "all kinds of ways" other than incredible difficulty and score system depth?

Fast bullet speed = difficulty. Complaining about bullet speed is complaining about the difficulty. The real challenge comes after you map some patterns. Until then you are only learning the game (learning: inane). Star Parodier exists for people who want to be babied.

[Drum]

When I learn something, I want it to be from my mistakes. When I do things right I want it to be because I was smart.
I am not asking for easier games, or that I never fail. I think I might have said something to that effect.
I am also aok with fast bullet speed - Halo and Unreal Tournament have pretty fast bullets, iirc. I think they might also have sniper rifles. Maybe.
What I am asking for:
No mandatory failures. Corollary: I don't want to do well because I got lucky.
Mapping patterns is snore. Formulating strategies is hott. (These are not synonymous).

'All kinds of ways': tuned procedurally generated components, rank done right, tools that allow players to deal with any situation but with critical limitaions - ie. shields like in some games you might have heard of, meta-rank (ie. rank that carries over from game to game like Battle Garegga only not unbelievably stupid), Left4Dead/Zanac-style 'dungeon master' AI that adapts to the player over time.
I think chaining and point-blanking were actually attempts at solutions to the problem of rote-ness - ways for experts to create tension for themselves and go for super duper high scores - but they are not very good solutions and have a ton of their own problems.
(General question: would games with a chain meter be more bearable if you died if it falls below some point, like the speedometer on the bus in speed? Or if you could discretion-ally 'lock' it in if you do particularly well, like Who Wants to be a Millionaire?)

EDIT: sorry for saying meta and procedural generation.

[Hair]

Appealed to thousands of loligoobers across the globe.

Next generation of Cave fans becoming Touhou fans?
When will we see the first "which cave-character would you sleep with?-thread" with 20+ pages of serious answers?

When you put it like that.... I'd sleep with Batan Saionji from Akai Katana..... Serious, as ever.

I'd take the girls in Ibara/Pink Sweets, the 17-year-old from Death Smiles (nice of Cave to include their ages), and Ketsui (the game itself).

The differences some of you described between Manic and Bullet Hell are what I figured; Manic being faster with more sniper fire, and Bullet Hell being slower but with more bullet coverage, but I have also seen them used interchangeably. I think the line between then is blurry, but it is nice to have names for the way Cho Ren Sha is different than rRootage.