XRGB-3

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:42 pm

Or does 120hz causes any trouble for Retro Games?!

the 120Hz seem to be disabled in "through mode" anyway. With 120Hz enabled the lag rises up to 1 to 1.5 frames. Still nice though.

BuckoA51 · Post by **BuckoA51** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:01 pm

Response time has absolutely nothing at all to do with input lag.

Artemio · Post by **Artemio** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:14 pm

BuckoA51 wrote:Response time has absolutely nothing at all to do with input lag.

Indeed, one thing is how long it takes the display pixels to update their value from the TV buffer, and the other how long it takes ofr a signal to go from the input to that buffer plus to being displayed on the screen. This last one implies digitalization if needed, video processing (does it need deinterlacing? etc), user settings (color, sharpness, brightness) and upscaling.

RGB32E · Post by **RGB32E** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:27 pm

RuffNEC wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
I only owned TN Panels since today...
maybe time to move on Na, really, if you don't mind the BenQ being a TN panel, it sounds like a nice display. Probably not this expensive either.
I've heard it would not have been possible to use an IPS Panel for this Monitor as it won't work with the 120hz refresh rate. The monitor has a resonse time of only 2ms which is excelent for the input lag. the colours are nicer on a IPS Panel for sure but less input lags than on IPS. Or does 120hz causes any trouble for Retro Games?!

120Hz computer monitors will eventually come in non-TN flavors... outside of Japan at least! Mitsubishi recently released a 120Hz LED lit monitor with a IPS panel:

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/switch-langu ... uage=en_JP
It goes for around $850 though (MSRP is higher).

120Hz monitors allow for a 120Hz signal via dual link DVI (e.g. 1920x1080@120Hz from a PC). Using a 120Hz source signal reduces S&H blur, resulting in smoother motion without any frame interpolation... Then again, you'd need a PC that is capable of rendering at that frame rate and resolution!

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:19 am

yeah, but as said, show me a human creature who can distinguish a native 120fps video feed from a 60fps one. Sony for example doesn't extend their Motionflow settings to 60fps inputs. Neither your XBR8 nor my HX9 does anything to 60fps content, not even when MF's set to smooth.

Most of today's 3D content is either frame-packed 1080p (essentially 1080p48) or 720p120 (PS3 3D games).

BuckoA51 · Post by **BuckoA51** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:48 am

I thought the point of 120hz was so that we could have 60hz 3D? A step up from what current gen 3DTV's can offer.

Artemio · Post by **Artemio** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:54 am

BuckoA51 wrote:I thought the point of 120hz was so that we could have 60hz 3D? A step up from what current gen 3DTV's can offer.

The point of 120Hz is to have 24 fps, 120/60, 120/24 and 120/30 ...

Rock Man · Post by **Rock Man** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:03 am

Okay, this may sound really strange but I'm considering housing up to three monitors in my room. One is the LCD I use for the computer NOT for gaming needs outside of the occassional PC game (I own two PC titles even though I don't consider myself a PC gamer) the other is the Plasma TV where my obvious gaming set-up usually is, finally the last is going to be a CRT which is God Tier on analogue.

The only reason I would consider doing something like this is for lightguns sake. Everywhere I look they have these newer lightguns that work on HD sets however they only take fresh platforms, lowest they'll go is XBOX and PS2. Well I wanna play Virtua Cop, Gumshoe, and House of the Dead 2 again; on systems that made them famous and I wanna do it in optimum quality (RGBSCART/VGA). This is where the XRGB-3 comes in, problem is I need my conveniance. I can be down right obnoxious when it comes to avoid switching cables. There's always the possibility wire leads can be warn out from accessive ejection or insertion. Instead of going that route I took a friends advice who says I should get a type of VGA switcher. It's purpose is switching between the HDTV and CRT on the fly (they're literally gonna be right next to each other) with two VGA cables placed into the respective televisions while one end is extending to the XRGB-3. After careful consideration, I've come to the conclusion this might benefit exactly what I'm trying to do.

The only concern is would the XRGB be able to handle such a job? Of course I'd only leave one display type on at a time, even so trying to play it on the safe side after all the XRGB-3 is a foriegn device. For the one VGA lead entering the XRGB-3 would it be too much to assume it can split it's signal back in fourth (1 at a time) between the 2 monitors without consequence? If expert opinion is an affirmative I'm all over it. I know some of you may think it be easier to just channel the XRGB through the CRT and forget about the Plasma. Well I have my reasons for still wanting to play on the HDTV despite the traditional CRT's superiority in taking retro machines. In a nutshell, the goal here is to not only recreate that rich AV experience I felt back then, but expand upon that aspect in glowing detail while still able to use ALL my old peripherals (which includes lightguns) I got atleast 5 lightguns I won't allow them to go to waste.

BuckoA51 · Post by **BuckoA51** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:33 am

No point at all to use the XRGB3 with a CRT TV. If you have a CRT monitor that's not 15khz compatible you can use something like this:-

http://us.startech.com/product/ST122L-2 ... o-Splitter

With one of those you can happily drive two displays from one XRGB3. Indeed, it can be quite useful to do so for troubleshooting sometimes.

RGB32E · Post by **RGB32E** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:47 pm

Rock Man wrote:Okay, this may sound really strange but I'm considering housing up to three monitors in my room. One is the LCD I use for the computer NOT for gaming needs outside of the occassional PC game (I own two PC titles even though I don't consider myself a PC gamer) the other is the Plasma TV where my obvious gaming set-up usually is, finally the last is going to be a CRT which is God Tier on analogue.

If you want to play retro light gun games the best display might be a Sony PVM monitor. I haven't tried connecting the XRGB-3's B1 output to a CRT monitor to see if that would even work, but would be an interesting experiment. An active (powered) VGA splitter would work for providing multiple analog outputs from the XRGB-3, but might noticeably degrade the signal depending upon the particular splitter you use.

BuckoA51 · Post by **BuckoA51** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:00 pm

No problems/degradation with my Startech VGA splitter and B1 mode worked nicely with my Samsung CRT monitor.

RGB32E · Post by **RGB32E** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:31 pm

BuckoA51 wrote:No problems/degradation with my Startech VGA splitter and B1 mode worked nicely with my Samsung CRT monitor.

Are you able to use a NES or SNES lightgun with the CRT computer monitor (using B1 signal)?

BuckoA51 · Post by **BuckoA51** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:43 pm

Never tried, sorry (CRT is gone now too)

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:34 pm

Are you able to use a NES or SNES lightgun with the CRT computer monitor (using B1 signal)?

no, doesn't work.

Rock Man · Post by **Rock Man** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:46 pm

Fudoh wrote:
Are you able to use a NES or SNES lightgun with the CRT computer monitor (using B1 signal)?
no, doesn't work.

Crap! This throws a monkey wrench in my plans. That would suck if I had to play the XRGB exclusively in B0 mode, I hate lag. (well some HDTV lag I can handle, but I like to try and reduce lag when possible especially on Micomsoft's device. Only way to do that is through B1 mode) I didn't care about SNES but Nintendo's going to be a problem if this is so.

BuckoA51 wrote:No point at all to use the XRGB3 with a CRT TV. If you have a CRT monitor that's not 15khz compatible you can use something like this:-

Hmmm I wonder, when I took the XRGB over my friends crib the picture kept going in and out on the Super Gun (CPS2, MVS, Rival Schools) and his NeoGeo AES. At first I thought it was because I mismanaged the settings (that was back when I was wet behind the ears) but now I'm starting to wonder. I could have sworn I adjusted the AFC level properly, set the SCART termination to 220 ohm, made sure the A/D was correct and assumed Sync-Lock was turned off. I'd been wondering if one of those features wasn't checked that day but now I'm pondering if his monitor had anything to do with the black-outs. It was fine in B0 mode (glaring complications aside) but when I hit the switch the signal would dissapear.

As I understand it those 15kHz monitors is rare they seem like your typical Arcade display, perhaps I should consider getting one of those. But then again Fudoh's comments worries me. I hope his words only counts for the non-15khz monitors. I really want my lightgun games to work in outstanding quality. I just can't go back to playing lightgun games NES/Dreamcast/Saturn Composite/S-Video after witnessing what real RGB is like.

BuckoA51 wrote:http://us.startech.com/product/ST122L-2 ... o-Splitter

With one of those you can happily drive two displays from one XRGB3. Indeed, it can be quite useful to do so for troubleshooting sometimes.

This seems it will allow for VGA INPUT (1) > VGA OUTPUT (2)

Thanks. I will look into it.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:03 pm

That would suck if I had to play the XRGB exclusively in B0 mode, I hate lag

don't misunderstand me, Lightgun don't work AT ALL when the signal is processed through the XRGB.

Rock Man · Post by **Rock Man** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:24 pm

Fudoh wrote:
That would suck if I had to play the XRGB exclusively in B0 mode, I hate lag
don't misunderstand me, Lightgun don't work AT ALL when the signal is processed through the XRGB.

Right sorry, welp I'm screwed.

RGB32E · Post by **RGB32E** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:49 pm

Rock Man wrote:
Fudoh wrote:don't misunderstand me, Lightgun don't work AT ALL when the signal is processed through the XRGB.
Right sorry, welp I'm screwed.

Just monitor your local craigs list for the following monitors and buy one (should be <$100):
Sony PVM-2030
Sony PVM-2530
Sony PVM-2950Q
(Keywords being "Sony" and "PVM")

There's also the NEC XM29 and variations (Keywords "NEC" and "XM").

Once you have said RGB monitor, you can get an adapter for your scart or JP21 RGB cables and go that route.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:08 am

And the DC lightgun also works on 31khz VGA CRTs

BuckoA51 · Post by **BuckoA51** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:47 am

Or just buy ANY good quality second hand CRT TV, you don't need the XRGB3 then and all lightguns will work perfectly.

Oh actually if you are in America, finding one with an RGB SCART input could be tough.

Again, there is really no reason at all to use XRGB3 on a 15hkz compatible CRT display.

Shogun · Post by **Shogun** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:54 pm

BuckoA51 wrote:
Again, there is really no reason at all to use XRGB3 on a 15hkz compatible CRT display.

Forcing 240p on the PS2 with an Extron?

Rock Man · Post by **Rock Man** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:21 am

Okay, if I was to put everything in perspective.

GOALS

1.) Get all my platforms in fine quality
2.) Keep everything in my room (for convenience)
3.) Attain complete compatibility with peripherals
4.) No cable swapping

The original plan was to use the XRGB-3 as a gateway through two outputs, one that will allow gunplay and one for casual gaming. But if I can't even do that I guess I'll have to settle for playing Saturn, DC, NES, SMS light gun games on a smaller CRT screen (I COULD go with a large monitor to REPLACE the Plasma but I like playing certain video games in 1080p and would hate to lose that function, besides someone special bought me this television. The CRT's gonna have to be atleast 23-inches since I have not the space for anything bigger). With the way things are looking it seems I'm left with no choice. New plan, I take the advice you three so generously offered me and connect the 3 of 4 LG consoles to a CRT, bang! I get my light gun support back (just have to make sure the monitor takes SCART RGB leads no cable swapping, no going back to S-Video).

I don't know why I thought playing those consoles on an HD set was cool. If anything Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga would look much more compelling on a CRT than being passed through an HDTV's XRGB-3. I shoulda done this a long time ago and went analogue oldschool like the rest of you guys along with about half my friends. The wide screen GGX1 about the only impressive thing holding me. Nothing that can't look sharper on a CRT, though.

RGB32E wrote:
Rock Man wrote:
Fudoh wrote:don't misunderstand me, Lightgun don't work AT ALL when the signal is processed through the XRGB.
Right sorry, welp I'm screwed.
Just monitor your local craigs list for the following monitors and buy one (should be <$100):
Sony PVM-2030
Sony PVM-2530
Sony PVM-2950Q
(Keywords being "Sony" and "PVM")

There's also the NEC XM29 and variations (Keywords "NEC" and "XM").

Once you have said RGB monitor, you can get an adapter for your scart or JP21 RGB cables and go that route.

Noted. However, buying another adapter wasn't in my plans. I had bought so many already (even faulty ones I had to return) although I could chase down a SCART/VGA NTSC compatible CRT display then go for broke.

Fudoh wrote:And the DC lightgun also works on 31khz VGA CRTs

Indeed, will make sure the monitor offers VGA inputs. Thanks.

BuckoA51 wrote:Or just buy ANY good quality second hand CRT TV, you don't need the XRGB3 then and all lightguns will work perfectly.

Oh actually if you are in America, finding one with an RGB SCART input could be tough.

Again, there is really no reason at all to use XRGB3 on a 15hkz compatible CRT display.

Don't worry I won't. Which is why I must obtain a 15kHz NTSC SCART monitor at some point. I'll conduct a search on craigs list.

I'm grateful for all the advice you guys.

BuckoA51 · Post by **BuckoA51** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:17 pm

Two things tonight

1) I got my Genesis and MegaCD back - Fully modded with composite sync and multi-bios for the MCD and switchless mod for the Genny, works a treat. I tried the SMS converter again and the picture seems more stable but still drops out every few seconds. Something very strange there, but at a loss to explain it (tried the Extron with it too, no difference).

2) I picked up a Super Famicom, but I'm having problems with picture dropout on that. Strange since my PAL SNES seems to work nicely. I will try another SCART cable but I wondered, has anyone tried the SFC's composite sync? Can you just tap the comp sync on the Super Fami directly or does it need resistors/caps adding first?

Should mention I'm not using the same SCART on the Super Famicom as the SNES, since I know that doesn't work.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:33 pm

The Scart cables should work fine on both consoles if it's composite video.

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

There's no c-sync on the EU SNES.

BuckoA51 · Post by **BuckoA51** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:29 pm

Konsolkongen wrote:The Scart cables should work fine on both consoles if it's composite video.

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

It doesn't, works fine on the SNES not on the SFC, on http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/ ... escart.htm the SFC and the SNES SCART cables are capped differently.

There's no c-sync on the EU SNES.

I know, I'd like to try it on the SFC. Then again, I just got my Genesis modded for Composite Sync and it still drops picture when the screen goes bright (even with the RGB termination at 220 ohms), so I'm not sure Csync is the answer on machines other than the Saturn.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:45 pm

possibly a small comfort: the original japanese Nintendo SFC RGB cable only uses composite video, not pure sync and the picture quality is absolutely stunning.

BuckoA51 · Post by **BuckoA51** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:49 pm

Just got to find one now I suppose

Also, I am not sure this csync mod to my Genesis has been done correctly, I will investigate further.

Using composite sync may still have benefits for running PAL and NTSC software on the same console, perhaps?

EDIT - Can confirm Andy at Console Passion forgot to rewire my Genesis SCART cable for composite sync when he did the mod!

EDIT 2 - Got the cable re-wired, composite sync appears to cure the "loss of sync when screen is bright" problem on the Genesis too, hurrah, just my PC Engine and Super Famicom to solve now! (oh and the SMS Converter if that can ever be solved)

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:54 pm

When playing with my XRGB-3 in B1 mode I sometimes experience a strange tearing effect on the bottom 1/3 of the screen. The lowest part of the screen appears just a few ms later than the rest and can be quite annoying in fast scrolling games.

I'm using the newest Japanese firmware and the XRGB-3 is connected to the Gefen.

Is this a problem with the XRGB-3 or the Gefen then? This has never happened with a Dreamcast > Gefen combo.

BuckoA51 · Post by **BuckoA51** » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:08 pm

Using my Gefen again today sice the Edge is away for repairs, never noticed anything like that, do all your consoles do it?

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:21 pm

Well the two consoles I use currently, Saturn and MegaDrive. Yes happens on both.

What firmware do you use on the XRGB?

shmups.system11.org

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