THE greatest run n' guns of all time?

[Ghegs]

Gunner's Heaven is awesome but I got stuck somewhere. I have a super play of it that I bought at some minor games show, but have yet to watch it.

Oh hey, I've made my own of that. Now I'm curious about this other video.

[rapoon]

Xain'd Sleena with commentary

[Skykid]

Gunner's Heaven is awesome but I got stuck somewhere. I have a super play of it that I bought at some minor games show, but have yet to watch it.

Oh hey, I've made my own of that. Now I'm curious about this other video.

Really fun to watch, and a lovely quality vid in 480p too (Rrrr... )

[Obiwanshinobi]

Defeated Stage 3 boss in Rocket Knight Adventures last night. Hey, it's a prototype of the human-faced fish boss from Contra: Shattered Soldier! That Nobuya Nakazato bloke is the man.

Why do people like Contra? I am asking this in a seriously-not-trying-to-be-a-dick sort of way, and as a person who put a Super Star Wars game, Jump Bug, Mutant Night, Xain'D SleenA and Psycho Soldier on his own list. I am also typing this while my screen is covered in popup windows from a malware program trying to convince me it's my antivirus program, so that's dedication. Metal Slug I get, because graphix. Contra I do not. Note: I have not put a whole lot of time into Hard Corps, and Shattered Soldier I only have experience with via youtube videos (and I thought it looks like totally bananas fun even though it was still Contra).

NES port of the first one was rather good. Co-op, fast pacing, respectable firepower, "the atmosphere" (if you don't get it, I'm afraid it can't be helped), even decent platforming here and there (the waterfall stage) and pseudo 3D levels that didn't blow (I believe there's still room for this kind of gameplay, but Space Raiders/Space Invaders: Invasion Day would be the last game of that ilk I know about). Quite busy, isn't it? Kill rate is higher than in Raf World, most enemies die from one bullet (just the way you do)... I you wanted to play as a dude with a gun killing stuff on the NES, Contra was the shit.
Hard Corps brought big fucking explosions to the table, as well as control scheme refinements and spot-on presentation (check out these colours, man), all without affecting the functionality. I find it (at least the Japanese version) more playable than Gunstar Heroes or Alien Soldier.
Shattered Soldier not only retained "the atmosphere" and aesthetical badasness despite polygonal graphics (it might not be pushing PS2 the way Hard Corps pushed MD/Genesis, yet it never looks tacky), but it also refined controls even further and the bosses... Them fucking bosses... I mean, really. Until quite recently I thought I was done with Contra, but Shattered Soldier reinvigorated my interest in the series and 8-bit gaming.
So in hindsight, I guess it boils down to "the atmosphere" and the pacing (run 'n' gun shouldn't be stuck 'n' gun if you ask me).

[Drum]

Defeated Stage 3 boss in Rocket Knight Adventures last night. Hey, it's a prototype of the human-faced fish boss from Contra: Shattered Soldier! That Nobuya Nakazato bloke is the man.

Why do people like Contra? I am asking this in a seriously-not-trying-to-be-a-dick sort of way, and as a person who put a Super Star Wars game, Jump Bug, Mutant Night, Xain'D SleenA and Psycho Soldier on his own list. I am also typing this while my screen is covered in popup windows from a malware program trying to convince me it's my antivirus program, so that's dedication. Metal Slug I get, because graphix. Contra I do not. Note: I have not put a whole lot of time into Hard Corps, and Shattered Soldier I only have experience with via youtube videos (and I thought it looks like totally bananas fun even though it was still Contra).

NES port of the first one was rather good. Co-op, fast pacing, respectable firepower, "the atmosphere" (if you don't get it, I'm afraid it can't be helped), even decent platforming here and there (the waterfall stage) and pseudo 3D levels that didn't blow (I believe there's still room for this kind of gameplay, but Space Raiders/Space Invaders: Invasion Day would be the last game of that ilk I know about). Quite busy, isn't it? Kill rate is higher than in Raf World, most enemies die from one bullet (just the way you do)... I you wanted to play as a dude with a gun killing stuff on the NES, Contra was the shit.
Hard Corps brought big fucking explosions to the table, as well as control scheme refinements and spot-on presentation (check out these colours, man), all without affecting the functionality. I find it (at least the Japanese version) more playable than Gunstar Heroes or Alien Soldier.
Shattered Soldier not only retained "the atmosphere" and aesthetical badasness despite polygonal graphics (it might not be pushing PS2 the way Hard Corps pushed MD/Genesis, yet it never looks tacky), but it also refined controls even further and the bosses... Them fucking bosses... I mean, really. Until quite recently I thought I was done with Contra, but Shattered Soldier reinvigorated my interest in the series and 8-bit gaming.
So in hindsight, I guess it boils down to "the atmosphere" and the pacing (run 'n' gun shouldn't be stuck 'n' gun if you ask me).

Ok, but Xain'D SleenA was way better. Now that game had great atmosphere.
Man, the NES has a lot to answer for in terms of making decent games into legends (I like the console and a ton of games on it, but yeesh).

[Wonderbanana]

Since it's not mentioned yet:

Mega Turrican on the MD/Genesis is THE best Run'n' Gun of all time.
Second place probably Turrican 2 / Amiga 500
3rd place Super Turrican 2 / SNES



4th place maybe Contra Shattered Soldier

No bloody way Mega Turrican is better than Turrican 2 on the Amiga! It's good but T2 was always the best :p

[louisg]

Why do people like Contra? I am asking this in a seriously-not-trying-to-be-a-dick sort of way, and as a person who put a Super Star Wars game, Jump Bug, Mutant Night, Xain'D SleenA and Psycho Soldier on his own list. I am also typing this while my screen is covered in popup windows from a malware program trying to convince me it's my antivirus program, so that's dedication. Metal Slug I get, because graphix. Contra I do not. Note: I have not put a whole lot of time into Hard Corps, and Shattered Soldier I only have experience with via youtube videos (and I thought it looks like totally bananas fun even though it was still Contra).

Contra was the first side view run n gun I remember (run n gun as in "plays kind of like Commando, but on its side", not like "only requirements are running and shooting"). Before, all the run n guns I saw were top view. And, it holds up really well in my opinion.

I wouldn't recommend CHC or Shattered Soldier personally. First, they don't really play much like the other Contra games because a great deal of memorization is required. If those are your only Contra experiences, I'd say check out 1, Super Contra, and Contra 3.

[Mortificator]

Hard Corps brought big fucking explosions to the table, as well as control scheme refinements

Hard Corps' controls were a disaster after Contra III.

Instead of holding down a button to aim, you now press a button to toggle between "running mode" and "aiming mode." I understand this was done because the Genny controller doesn't have shoulder buttons, but Treasure correctly realized how unintuitive a toggle would be and came up with Gunstar Heroes' fixed and free modes. It's just too bad Hard Corps aped everything from Gunstar except the mechanics that made that game fun.

Even worse is that the A button's schizophrenia. It's only an aim toggle if you press it when you're shooting, while pressing A if you're not shooting will switch weapons. Let's say you're running 'n gunning and want to change to a different gun; that's the simplest thing in the world in so many other games, but in Hard Corps you have to remember to stop shooting before hitting that button or you'll come to a screeching stop. Or let's say you moved to the sweet spot where you can hammer a boss. Instead of aiming and firing in one smooth motion, the Hard Corps infantry school requires you to start shooting in the wrong direction, toggle to aiming mode, then correct your fire.

The fun doesn't stop yet! Your screen-clearing bombs no longer have a dedicated button. You now have to cycle through your weapons to get to them, making bombs useless for anything but reducing a boss's HP at the start of a fight.

And hey, you've got five weapon slots and can only cycle through them in one direction.

Every problem except the lack of shoulder buttons could have been fixed with an intelligent 6-button controller config. How do the devs put three extra buttons to work? By making two of them do nothing, and X toggle between running and aiming, without even switching A to a dedicated weapon-change button and resolving at least one issue. Oh, and by putting an input test in the options menu so you can see if you're pressing these buttons they didn't bother assigning any function to. The game is pretty much trolling you at this point.

[louisg]

Hard Corps brought big fucking explosions to the table, as well as control scheme refinements

Hard Corps' controls were a disaster after Contra III.

They were usable, but yeah.. my main problem with the game was that it was a mess. One level is normal Contra, another level is Virtual Reality, another level is cartoon dinosaurs.. and that'd be OK if the gameplay were balanced well, but it's not: it's obviously made for 3 hits (ala the jp release), and some bosses are nearly unhittable with the majority of the weapons in the game. The only real exception is playing as Browny, and I would never want to do that

[Phoenix]

I still like commando, but the game i liked the most is LSA squad.

Turrican 2 was great too, had 1 or 2 shmupslevels that were great.

[harlequ1n]

Taroumaru is a Saturn game, and is the single most expensive properly released Saturn game these days... one that's not totally gay anyway. The game is fucking awesome, and not too difficult of a 1CC. I posted a pretty meh (but still 1LC) video on Super Play ages ago. It really is a great game. Should buy another one some day. Sorry I sold it.

Gunner's Heaven is awesome but I got stuck somewhere. I have a super play of it that I bought at some minor games show, but have yet to watch it. About as awesome as console only action games get, and dirt cheap.

I loved both superplays recorded by you mate and they really encouraged me to get those games (still working on Taromaru as it's hard as nails to come by at a reasonable price though, only played emulated unfortunately).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Hard Corps brought big fucking explosions to the table, as well as control scheme refinements

Hard Corps' controls were a disaster after Contra III.

Instead of holding down a button to aim, you now press a button to toggle between "running mode" and "aiming mode." I understand this was done because the Genny controller doesn't have shoulder buttons, but Treasure correctly realized how unintuitive a toggle would be and came up with Gunstar Heroes' fixed and free modes. It's just too bad Hard Corps aped everything from Gunstar except the mechanics that made that game fun.

What exactly Hard Corps aped from Gunstar Heroes? Fixed shot was done before in Turricans. Slide was in Mega Man 3. On rails section with a multi-jointed, transforming boss was in Rocket Knight Adventures. Hard Corps plays more like Rocket Knight Adventures in terms of the pacing, which in my book makes it right off the bat more likeable than Gunstar Heroes (or Metal Slug 3 while we're at it).

Every problem except the lack of shoulder buttons could have been fixed with an intelligent 6-button controller config. How do the devs put three extra buttons to work? By making two of them do nothing, and X toggle between running and aiming, without even switching A to a dedicated weapon-change button and resolving at least one issue. Oh, and by putting an input test in the options menu so you can see if you're pressing these buttons they didn't bother assigning any function to. The game is pretty much trolling you at this point.

I don't think Hard Corps should be singled out for utilising only three buttons since I don't even now any Genesis/MD game utilising more. How come being able to switch between two aiming modes at will is worse than doing it only once, at the start of the game? How come having a selectable bomb handy is worse than not having it at all?
Admittedly, I played Hard Corps after Shattered Soldier, where controls are even more fiddly.
There is some bizarre three buttons game design ethos going in Japan, though. Gigantic Army is like that too. Double tap for dash etc.

[BIL]

My only problem with Hard Corps is the branching level structure. One of the three mandatory levels (Jungle) is long, intensely boring and audiovisually bland. And since you can only play one set of the awesome final levels after it, it means constantly sitting through it to see the best stuff.

So I play it in Fusion with savestates and keep track of remaining lives with a pen and paper. Alien -> Train -> Ocean -> Space Station. Aww yeahh.

I cleared both it and Castlevania III's US versions when I was a retarded twelve year-old, so I've always been okay with the one-hit kills. I even use Fang and his big hitbox, since the charge shot can blow away bosses in a third of the time (never felt right tickling and caressing them with Browny's yo-yo. I want to shoot fuckers in the face god damn it)

[kemical]

I agree with a lot of mentioned titles, but think Ranger X / EX-Ranza deserves mention. Maybe more of a hybrid run'n'gun, a tactical run'n'gun? It is one of my favorite games on the Genesis.
I also think Robocop VS Terminator on Genesis was solid for a standard run'n'gun too.

[DocHauser]

Probotector (or C:HC, the version I played was called Probotector) did as much as it could with the 3-button controls available to it. I don't actually remember thinking that the controls were a problem. Certainly not broken, at any rate. I managed to beat it in one credit. Then again, I was using Browny

On paper, Metal Slug 3 looks like the best of the Slug series; more weapons and vehicles, variety of enemies, branching pathways, more detail in the background graphics, just generally more impressive all round. But in terms of level design it's ridiculous, some of those stages last forever. I can get pretty far in Metal Slug 1, 2 and X in one credit - those games are pretty well designed and balanced, apart from maybe some of the later levels - but the thought of 1CCing MS3 is just scary. I've heard it has been done, though. Some people clearly have a lot of time on their hands...

Are people not including overhead/top-down games as run'n'guns? Some of those are great: Shock Troopers, Nitro Ball, Fixeight, Gundhara, Ninja Commando, Outzone, etc.

[BIL]

but the thought of 1CCing MS3 is just scary. I've heard it has been done, though.

Mike Uyama did a 1LC speedrun you can download a replay of here (PS2 Hard difficulty = MVS Normal difficulty). Said it took him a year, on and off.

[DocHauser]

Thanks for the link, I'll try and check it out soon when I get the chance.

I remember looking for similar games to Contra and Metal Slug once, and I came across two Konami games called 'Run and Gun' and 'Run and Gun 2' from 1993 and 1996. I immediately thought that they sounded perfect and wondered why I hadn't heard of them before. Then I discovered that they're both basketball games... Maybe the next Contra game should be called Contra: Slam Dunk, just to confuse things even more.

[Rob]

Hard Corps' controls were a disaster after Contra III.

Instead of holding down a button to aim, you now press a button to toggle between "running mode" and "aiming mode." I understand this was done because the Genny controller doesn't have shoulder buttons, but Treasure correctly realized how unintuitive a toggle would be and came up with Gunstar Heroes' fixed and free modes. It's just too bad Hard Corps aped everything from Gunstar except the mechanics that made that game fun.

Even worse is that the A button's schizophrenia. It's only an aim toggle if you press it when you're shooting, while pressing A if you're not shooting will switch weapons. Let's say you're running 'n gunning and want to change to a different gun; that's the simplest thing in the world in so many other games, but in Hard Corps you have to remember to stop shooting before hitting that button or you'll come to a screeching stop. Or let's say you moved to the sweet spot where you can hammer a boss. Instead of aiming and firing in one smooth motion, the Hard Corps infantry school requires you to start shooting in the wrong direction, toggle to aiming mode, then correct your fire.

The fun doesn't stop yet! Your screen-clearing bombs no longer have a dedicated button. You now have to cycle through your weapons to get to them, making bombs useless for anything but reducing a boss's HP at the start of a fight.

And hey, you've got five weapon slots and can only cycle through them in one direction.

Every problem except the lack of shoulder buttons could have been fixed with an intelligent 6-button controller config. How do the devs put three extra buttons to work? By making two of them do nothing, and X toggle between running and aiming, without even switching A to a dedicated weapon-change button and resolving at least one issue. Oh, and by putting an input test in the options menu so you can see if you're pressing these buttons they didn't bother assigning any function to. The game is pretty much trolling you at this point.

I must be really good at adjusting to simple things.

[GaijinPunch]

Gunner's Heaven is awesome but I got stuck somewhere. I have a super play of it that I bought at some minor games show, but have yet to watch it.

Oh hey, I've made my own of that. Now I'm curious about this other video.

Lemme dig it up and compare yours.
I assume yours is a clear? I got stuck around stage 6 boss or so and gave up. Should bust it out again.

[Snake]

The Contra series is the gold standard for this entire genre, so what else can the answer really be? I like Xain'd Sleena, the Metal Slug series etc., but in the end the Contra series is the obvious champ.


1LCing Contra and Super C on the NES was my first big gaming achievement as a kid.

[Dave_K.]

Demon Front - Its like Metal Slug and DDP's illegitimate crack baby.

[Ghegs]

Gunner's Heaven is awesome but I got stuck somewhere. I have a super play of it that I bought at some minor games show, but have yet to watch it.

Oh hey, I've made my own of that. Now I'm curious about this other video.

Lemme dig it up and compare yours.
I assume yours is a clear? I got stuck around stage 6 boss or so and gave up. Should bust it out again.

Mine's a no-bomb clear, yeah. Stage 6 is just the final boss so you're close to finishing it.

[EinhanderZwei]

Any love for Judge Dredd for SNES? This is one of the best movie tie-ins ever in my opinion

The Contra series is the gold standard for this entire genre, so what else can the answer really be? I like Xain'd Sleena, the Metal Slug series etc., but in the end the Contra series is the obvious champ.

Exactly! Contra games contain no bullshit (ex. OverDramatic Plot) and are as genuine as run-n-guns can get. Back in the day they set the rules for ALL the similar games, and the influence can be clearly seen, even in modern titles like Gears Of War or Devil May Cry

1LCing Contra and Super C on the NES was my first big gaming achievement as a kid.

Same for me I'm able to 1CC both NES Contras anytime, so all those talks of 'insane difficulty' (refer to GameTrailers' Top 10 Most Difficult Games) make me giggle

[ST Dragon]

Why do people like Contra? I am asking this in a seriously-not-trying-to-be-a-dick sort of way, and as a person who put a Super Star Wars game, Jump Bug, Mutant Night, Xain'D SleenA and Psycho Soldier on his own list. I am also typing this while my screen is covered in popup windows from a malware program trying to convince me it's my antivirus program, so that's dedication. Metal Slug I get, because graphix. Contra I do not. Note: I have not put a whole lot of time into Hard Corps, and Shattered Soldier I only have experience with via youtube videos (and I thought it looks like totally bananas fun even though it was still Contra).

Re: Act Fancer Cybernetick Hyper Weapon: Is good, but it is a real bitch to play sometimes.

Re: Super Star Wars: These games are good. Every one of them has some Unbelievably Dumb Shit that brings them down (ie. precision platforming) but they are fun when you learn to deal and they feel like Star Wars as seen through the eyes of the kid who writes Axe Cop.

Re: Gunforce 2: Really?

Re: Turrican. Am gonna go play Mega Turrican now. This better not suck.

Mega Turrican is great, but Turrican I & II on the AMIGA are better.
Also Turrican 3 on the AMIGA, has better music the Genesis version Mega Turrican.
So play those instead.

[DocHauser]

Turrican was always more of a Metroid-type exploration game with shooting, rather than a typical run'n'gun game. I've only really played Turrican and Turrican 2 on the C64, though, so I'm not sure if the SNES and Megadrive versions were more arcade-y.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Man, the NES has a lot to answer for in terms of making decent games into legends (I like the console and a ton of games on it, but yeesh).

Well, it ticked quite a few major boxes: Super Mario Bros., smooth scrolling, decent ports of some coin-op games. I don't know if Super Mario was that much of a killer app, but it certainly stood head and shoulders above most things you could play at home in 1985.

Turrican was always more of a Metroid-type exploration game with shooting, rather than a typical run'n'gun game. I've only really played Turrican and Turrican 2 on the C64, though, so I'm not sure if the SNES and Megadrive versions were more arcade-y.

I keep suggesting somewhat obscure Super Turrican for the NES (not to be confued with the SNES one), made solely by Manfred Trenz (who knew a thing or two about 8-bit programming). Sadly, no Hülsbeck's tunes to be heard in that game.

[Drum]

I give SMB a pass - it actually was a legitimately extraordinary game in a lot of ways, even if it gets credited with a lot of firsts it can't lay claim to.
I was thinking of stuff like Contra, Castlevania etc. Decent but basically perfunctory games elevated to classic status because of circumstance (right time, right place, success in right country, right presentation, solid marketing) as much as anything else. I guess every system can lay claim to games like this.
I am probably being unfair on Contra, because it's a fun game, and I don't wanna get all shrill about it and ruin the thread. The aura it has is a bit much though. Gold standard? Ok - gold standard is a very apt metaphor for what Contra is.

[chronicdog]

After playing Hardcorps Uprising I think its certainly in the conversation. Took me a while to get the feel of the game but its incredible. Arc did a a fantastic job.

I always preferred Contra games to Metal Slug, but I like both franchises. Gunstar Heroes is up there.

If Bionic Commando counts as a run n gun, or swing n gun, then certainly the XBLA version is in the running.

[Obiwanshinobi]

To be fair, I like some games Konami made for MSX around that time better than Contra (let alone the original Castlevania). Penguin Adventure - now that's a game I'd like to see hailed as classic (and played by more people, since it has aged well). At this point, however, the likes of Contra outselling the likes of Penguin Adventure shouldn't come as a surprise, should they? That's just the way things are. Only Nintendo seem to be capable of selling games of the latter ilk in greater quantities, and nowadays even Nintendo camp turned into a ghetto within "mainstream gaming".

[Drum]

We need a timeline in this thread. Teach the pretenders all about the genre that Contra failed to invent or define. I am feeling frisky.

I'm gonna do arcade up to '87 and include Thexder because I want to.

Jump Bug (1981) - okay, so there is no actual running in this game, but you can jump like crazy and shoot the crap out of aliens and skeletons and jesters and bat things and jellyfish.
Moon Patrol (1982) - yay Moon Patrol wooooooooo
Elevator Action (1983) - was just playing this. Awesome game.
Legend of Kage (1984) - This game. Damn. 8 way ninja star throwing, scrolling all over, jumping like crazy, shot deflecting. Cooool.
Ninja Kid (1984) - fun game from UPL!!
Son Son (1984) - Capcom brings co-op to the world of the run n' gun.
Thexder (1985) - You can turn into a jet and shoot lasers everywhere.
Wiz (1985) - This game has mysterious powers. Seibu fell pretty far from this with the Raiden series, tbh.
Rolling Thunder (1986) - Better than Shinobi.
Xain'D SleenA (1986) - So good.
Karnov (1987) - Karnov is a sexual Tyrannosaurus.
Contra (1987) - you could do worse than Contra, I guess. Brings a lot of what came before into a solid package.
Mutant Night (1987) - Pinnacle of the genre.
Psycho Soldier (1987) - Catchy theme and fun gameplay.
Ninja Kid II (1987) - I can't tell the difference between this and the first one.
Shadowland (1987) - Starring Anthony Hopkins.