ED-057 wrote:The creation of Garegga was like studying for many years to become a chef, then opening a restaurant, and then using it only as a front to deal drugs.
This is probably the best simile I've ever heard. How we laughed
Garegga seems to be the new Radiant Silvergun or Ikaruga in the way that because it's held in so much awe and features so highly in the popularity stakes, people feel embarasssed to admit they don't like it.
Converesely, I am proud to admit that I like Stahlfeder lol
I also like Garegga a great deal because it is so evocative and has a definite atmosphere and feel to it which is much more intense than APB or Bakraid. Of course this has nothing to do with gameplay or mechanics and in those aspects Batrider wins every time. I feel a bit sorry for Bakraid here though cos it's emerging as the poor relation to Garegga. Maybe it should change it's name and make a new start somewhere else.
I love garegga its ONLY major downfall for me and one that turns me off putting as much time into it as i want to is the damn randomness of the flamingoes , i dont like total luckfests in my games .
I received a Batrider pcb about two weeks ago. After playing it exclusively over the past two weeks, I echo these sentiments:
Plasmo wrote:Garegga is number one of course. It's the best game ever created.
Icarus wrote:Garegga <3 . By far the best game I've ever played, and still play.
I think over time Batrider will grow on me more, as Garegga has done. I'm still no expert, but I've played quite a bit of Garegga and Ibara. I really think Raizing and Yagawa caught lightning in a bottle with Battle Garegga. In my opinion, it just hasn't been eclipsed yet by any of it's successors.
On a side note, Wouldn't it be awesome to see an Ibara Grey Label? One with more ship designs, perhaps some secret characters, and no lolis.
Garegga is definitely my favorite, and the one I've spent the most time playing. The music and atmosphere are incredible, as everyone's mentioned. The way that the various scoring and rank mechanics all come together seems just right.
Batrider is pretty cool, but I've only cleared Normal. People say that this game is more intuitive, but I always found Garegga to be easier to get into, so I dunno. Still, this one's a great game too.
I never really liked Bakraid. I've cleared Normal once or twice, but I can't really see myself going back to this one.
I haven't put a lot of time into Batrider or Bakraid, but Garegga is basically http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy6uLfermPU to me.
I think in the Garegga strat thread I made some smart remark, after browsing the on-paper mechanics, that it looked like something Roberta Williams would design if she made shmups. After playing it a bit, that seems about right. There are a lot of rad things about it but they're buried under so much arbitrary Asperger's-y baloney.
I wouldn't call it a bad game (yet - I'm trying to put some serious play time in so as to become an expert on what the fuck is wrong with the people who made it) but damn.
So I'm getting the idea that Bakraid is like a weird hybrid of Garegga and Batrider in terms of visuals and mechanics, so is Bakraid universally least popular because it's simply "not as good" or is it because it's the most esoteric and least accessible?
Likewise poor old Ibara always seems to come low on the list just cos it's not what CAVE afficionados have come to expect. It's a greeeaatt game and if it had been published by Taito we'd all be raving about it.
Last edited by mjclark on Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bakraid is the most accessible, as in most people play it a few times and ALL normal mode. At the same time, its the most esoteric in terms of suicide scoring mechanic, which most people scoff at saying they don't enjoy it (i.e. too difficult).
Dave_K. wrote:Bakraid is the most accessible, as in most people play it a few times and ALL normal mode. At the same time, its the most esoteric in terms of suicide scoring mechanic, which most people scoff at saying they don't enjoy it (i.e. too difficult).
That sounds like a wonderful mix of accessibility and difficulty. An easy 1cc on normal mode, and a very difficult system to score on for the experts. I haven't played much Bakraid, but it's on my short list of games to play in the future. Plus, the valley stage looks awesome! I love the valley background from Garegga. How is the soundtrack in Bakraid? That's another reason that I'm so high on Garegga, the sound track is phenomenal.
DocHauser wrote:You are thinking of the same Ibara, right?
The term "loli" seriously gets overused around here. A loli is a prepubesent girl (drawing) that is sexualized. It is obviously offensive to most cultures. The drawings in Ibara are women, and they got it going on. A drawing of a girl isn't a "loli" just because a Japanese guy drew it, nor just because it has large eyes.
Back on topic, I just played some Bakraid and realized I wrongly remembered it having more of the grey shell-looking bullets of Garegga rather than the more visable colored bullets. I still prefer Batrider for the quirky visual style. I've played more Garegga than Bakraid and Batrider combined, but the harder-to-see bullets bug me a little bit.
DocHauser wrote:You are thinking of the same Ibara, right?
The term "loli" seriously gets overused around here. A loli is a prepubesent girl (drawing) that is sexualized.
You say this like little girls aren't always sexy.
If they are, they are creepy. According to you average joe #1 around the corner aka the man with most common sense you can find. OKAY I find lolis to be overused in shmups too, fuck lolis, bring spaceships. Hurr
Not that I'm really interested or anything, but I assumed 'loli' is shorthand for 'loligoth' or whatever the term is, and the Ibara girls certainly have that goth thing going on - even if they're older than typical lolis (they still look like teenagers mostly) it's all part of the same aesthetic. Or something.
But back on topic, I've probably played Bakraid the most of the three. I 1CC'd Normal course and was somewhat disappointed to find out that my score (about 8 million) could be beaten on level 1 alone. People may dislike the chaining/milking because it's difficult, but it's also a bit of a chore too. Like having your mother nagging you to do your errands while you're playing:
"Have you started weakening the missile launchers by using your shot weapon?"
"Yeah mom, I'm doing that now."
"You didn't pick up any side power-ups, did you? That might do too much damage too soon."
"Yes mom...I remembered."
"And you should maybe think of weakening the cockpit section now so you can destroy it quicker later."
"Can you just...I'm doing that already! Let me get on with it."
"Should be about time to drop that bomb on the wing."
"Alright already! Oh...I died. That's it, I'm never playing it this way again."
Damn, sorry for the major derail, but I think this is a pretty relevent topic to the forum overall... just not to 8ing. Skip it if you aren't interested.
Loli is short for Lolicon and yes the term stems from "Lolita", which was a book and movie based on the attraction of a man to an underage girl (who did not return his sentiment). Loli-Goth is a subgenre of Loli, but Loli-Goth still has to involve underage girls, just in a gothic setting. The art in Ibara is gothic, but not loli. Lolicon is basically hentai, though it may not have nudity. Its purpose is clear, it's wank material for pedos. The chicks in Ibara have hips, booty, and boobies. Lolicon purposely omits those things. Recap: loli=flat chest, prepubesent, innocent, for pedos. Ibara=boobies, booty, not innocent, not for pedos.
Japanese art in general features women, girls, and guys with large eyes, which is an innocent or childlike trait, but that doesn't mean it is loli or sexualizing young girls. A fully dressed young girl in a drawing isn't even loli just because she is young, unless she is doing something sexually suggestive. The young girl in Guwange isn't loli either.
I do understand though that there is a common artistic style in shmups that uses innocent-looking girls and that this is counter to the traiditonal space ship or airplane motif. I just don't think "loli" is the right term since that implies a mish-mash or two unrelated things; prepubesent innocence, and sex. Both of those elements have to be there for it to be loli. The gals in Ibara aren't prepubesent and innocent, and the young girls in Guwange and Progear aren't wearing or doing anything sexual suggestive.
I don't think any Cave game features Loli, and I am 100% sure that is how the Japanese see it as well. The rift between the characters in ESP.Ra.De, ESP.Galuda, Progear, Death Smiles, Ibara etc... and real lolicon manga is *HUGE*. The way "loli" is used around here all manga is loli just for having female characters. Is Ghost in a Shell Loli?
To be honest, I can't think of another term to describe the trend of "cute female" characters in shmups, such as Ibara or Death Smiles, or Eden's Aegis. I think cute-em-up almost works, but Ibara isn't really the same style as Parodius or Twin Bee.
I'm not offended by lolicon, but I don't dig the visuals. I do however love the gothic and steampunk female characters in some shmups, with Ibara as a perfect example. Also Progear. I love those visuals and characters and they sure as hell ain't loli. Even the obviously young characters in Progear are not loli... unless there is some cutscene I missed where they suck on a popsicle.
Super late ninja edit: Exceed is total loli.
Last edited by Hair on Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
captpain wrote:Garegga's oppresive atmosphere and unconventional gameplay style make it one of my favorite games of all time. It's really heart-poundingly intense in the later stages, and the overall scale manages to be huge, but there's never a boring moment.
Batrider is really cool but I doubt I'll ever get into it too much. It's one of the top shmups, though.
Bakraid sucks. It's ugly, the scoring is ridiculous, the music is bland... no thanks.
For some reason I prefer Garegga over the others myself, and while I probably would've been a little nicer about the graphics of Bakraid this pretty much says it all. I especially hate most of the Bakraid music though (except 'Parapsychology' and 'Terrible Object'), as they give me the vibes of those really cheesy 80s TV shows that you cringe at.
Batrider's was fitting and not much else, but Garegga rocked. Not in the invisible bullet and difficulty system that has me banging my head against the wall harder than Satanic music fans, but in the atmosphere generated by the music. In the end though I think we can all agree that the three games are a love one minute, hate the next relationship, right?
Scratch that, I'm a convert.
Batrider first, Garegga second, Bakraid fucked.
I like Batrider's music for its traditional take (coming from a Raiden player where stage = happy and boss = badass), graphics for not being too cheesy and flat, and gameplay for being balanced compared to the others.
Also, Envy. Nothing quite compares.
*end of stage5, expects Sobut to show up*
*Sobut shows...then Blunt..then Envy*
"AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!"
Garegga's good too IF you use the proper settings that make it plausible to get to stage 5 on one credit while still jacking up rank.
BPzeBanshee wrote:
*end of stage5, expects Sobut to show up*
*Sobut shows...then Blunt..then Envy*
"AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!"
Yeah, you definitely have to keep an eye out for those special powerups.
Know what, though? The more I play Batrider, the less I fear Envy. I am NOT saying she's anything but a terror, but once you get even a teeny bit comfortable, the horror and panic start to go away.
captpain wrote:Well, now I don't agree with my own post, lmao.
I love Batrider and I am officially "into it". I no longer think Bakraid sucks, but it's certainly not for me.
Batrider converts FTW
I suppose your view sums up what I think of Bakraid - not to my taste.
As for Envy I still dont have a good strategy for it but I did beat all three of the mechs on Normal Course the other day. I was stoked.
I just need to remember more details from the ST thread and no worries.
BPzeBanshee wrote:
As for Envy I still dont have a good strategy for it but I did beat all three of the mechs on Normal Course the other day. I was stoked.
I just need to remember more details from the ST thread and no worries.
The Highway boss is determined by stage selection -- whatever stage is second determines the guaranteed boss. The other two are tied to which stages are 3 or 4, and the way they are triggered is by picking up either Special Option or Special Shot powerups (drop 3 of the type and pick up the 4th).
Basically avoid Envy unless you need those points super-duper bad.
Bakraid is great, in a way it's a flamingo suicide trick spinoff except a lot more fun than the flamingo suicide trick. And what's not to love about a game where common scoring failures include "failed to suicide and lost the chain", "too many extends fell off the screen and I had to cut a chain short", "I lost count of how many lives I had in stock during a chain and unexpectedly gameovered midway through", among other hilarious consequences of the wackiest chaining system I've ever seen.
Having said that, Garegga is probably the best of the bunch - something that is rarely mentioned, and which I think is Garegga's biggest strength, is its pace. It just rolls forward ominously, one set piece at a time. It's also a lot easier than people say it is; I blame the crazy "Golden Bat is a good ship for beginners" talk. I mean, you can't even cheese BH2's vulcan sweep with Golden Bat! And on top of that you are slower than a falling medal! Recipe for disaster, I say.
I have pretty much zero experience with Batrider outside of special course, unfortunately - I want to crack the Garegga top ten and maybe nab the #1 spot for Bakraid advanced before putting time into it, or else I'll risk spreading myself too thin with the sheer amount of stuff you have to know (and pull off, obviously) to score properly in Batrider.
BPzeBanshee wrote:
As for Envy I still dont have a good strategy for it but I did beat all three of the mechs on Normal Course the other day. I was stoked.
I just need to remember more details from the ST thread and no worries.
The Highway boss is determined by stage selection -- whatever stage is second determines the guaranteed boss. The other two are tied to which stages are 3 or 4, and the way they are triggered is by picking up either Special Option or Special Shot powerups (drop 3 of the type and pick up the 4th).
Basically avoid Envy unless you need those points super-duper bad.
The stage selection I remembered for the most part, but I keep thinking it was the Option powerups. I suppose really it doesnt matter so long as I get max power by then and just avoid the lot.
Man I really need to get back into the game, been busy playing other stuff and chatting more than playing. XD
