Explain to me why the Dreamcast deserves it's crazy fan base

[Specineff]

Guess Stormwatch nailed it with the resentment thing. Shadow of the Colossus, as impressive as it is, doesn't have graphics that look Toy Story-like. *looks at watch* I'm still waiting, Mr. Kutaragi...

Oh, and while we're at it, when are you going to release the PS2-rendered version of Phantom Menace, Mr. Lucas?

[Mortificator]

It also has the best versions of... stuff that's appeared on other consoles since then like the Resident Evil and Dino Crisis updates

A VMU EKG is neat and all, but the only Capcom survival horror game that might be best on Dreamcast is Resident Evil 2. The PC version of RE3 allows skipping the door loading sequences and has some higher-res backgrounds, the GameCube version of Code: Veronica has nicer graphics and extra cinematics, and the PC version of Dino Crisis has additional Operation: Wipeout stages. Fewer buttons on the controller also means you lose the ability to draw towards enemies and destructible objects separately in Nemesis.

Most of the Dreamcast games I like are fighters (I'M MENTIONING THEM DRAUCH), yet the console had a standard controller that's virtually unusable for fighters. Oddly enough, Virtua Fighter 3 is the worst game in its series.

[Zeron]

Dreamcast was a great console for its time yes the PS2 has indeed surpassed it but Dreamcast for its mere 3 years in US/PAL it was amazing, the PS2 started out like a joke the games looked like Ps1 games they could not even run full speed, I dunno maybe intentional slowdowns every corner in a racing game, Imo the PS2 was a piece of shit till late 2004 thats where it started to shine.

not to mention the early PS2 games jaggies dear lord

[Stormwatch]

I liked your post better when it was unedited. The PS1/2/3 controllers really are garbage, I'm forced to hook up a converter whenever I want to play PC-Engine stuff on my PS3.

Alright, edited some Dualshock-bashing back in.

[Despatche]

Okay.

And the Playstation's controller was, and still is, an execrable piece of junk. It's such a misshapen piece of crap that I just won't bother getting one, even though some games interest me.

Piss. The DualShock is a better controller than at least the GameCube controller, the Dreamcast controller, the N64 controller, the Xbox Controller/S (this is your "misshapen piece of crap"), and the Xbox 360 controller. The only oddity I've ever found are the strange triggers in the Sixaxis and the DualShock 3.

edit: I love you guys, I really do... I'm so sorry, I wish I could do something about it

[KBZ]

It baffles me to a point that I get pissed off.

sounds like you got some explaining of your own to do. It's ok, we're all friends here, and everything's gonna be just fine.

Nothing accomplished everything the Dreamcast did on one system in such a small frame of time, that's one thing many will appreciate.

Also, these days a console (and a sega one at that) with real games, many of which are quality titles all in one place without pesky firmware updates is as comforting as bangers 'n mash.

[louisg]

And the Playstation's controller was, and still is, an execrable piece of junk. It's such a misshapen piece of crap that I just won't bother getting one, even though some games interest me.

Piss. The DualShock is a better controller than the GameCube controller, the Dreamcast controller, the N64 controller, the Xbox Controller/S, the Xbox 360 controller, and most likely a lot more! The only oddity I've ever found are the strange triggers in the Sixaxis and the DualShock 3.

Its analog controls are really usable, but I find the d-pad spacing to be pretty bad for anything requiring diagonals. They would have been better off going with a cross pad. You could make a case for it being better than the flawed DC controller (which works great for shooters and driving games, and amazingly poorly for fighting games), but IMO it is definitely not better than the GameCube controller, for my hands at least- that has to be one of the most ergonomic controllers ever.

I wouldn't call the PS controller misshapen. It is fairly traditional. I just think the issue is that, analog aside, you're controlling the directions using buttons spaced symmetrically with the buttons on the right side of the controller. It's a cool idea, but I'm not sure it works out all that well in practice.

Tell me which games, though! I mentioned some of the big ones, but if that's the case, why don't I constantly hear about the Gamecube being the most underrated system ever?

I think there are a couple things going on here: the GameCube didn't die a sudden death, but instead just faded out continually over the generation. So, it wasn't a console-martyr It also didn't really launch with a bunch of impressive games: it launched with a few good games and a lot of let-downs. The thing that was too bad about the DC is that, from launch, it was continually having really good games released for it- both aesthetically good and gameplay-wise. It's arguably an example of a console doing almost everything right and still getting its ass handed to it, which alone is pretty interesting. On the other hand, the GameCube (and PS2) really took a while to get going, kind of how the previous generation was for all 3 systems (the 32-bit gen didn't really get going strong until ~1997, or arguably 1998 even).

And, I also think that's where a lot of the DC fanboy shock comes from: the PS2 didn't really have anything for it at the time it killed the DC, it was twice as expensive, twice as big, and the games kind of looked like souped-up last-gen games (e.g. Ridge Racer V, which is a great example: warmed-over gameplay, very bland graphics which, in motion, appeared half the resolution). So, this obviously is going to stoke the white-hot flames of nerd rage

But eventually, the PS2 was performing fairly well in both the graphics and gameplay when taking the top games into consideration (the argument at that point is kind of like Genesis vs. SNES: DC does some things better, PS2 does some things better), but it took a bit of time to get to that point. Of course, systems generally improve over time. Looking at games like Under Defeat makes me wonder how much further the DC could have been pushed. After all, mainstream games ceased to be made for it long before a lot of cool 3d techniques were being used. The last crop of mainstream games for it had some pretty sharp looks.

BTW I had totally forgotten about Red Dog! I spent so many hours with that game, both the main game and its minigames. It's such a unique kind of game that I always wished for a sequel that would have fixed its flaws (difficulty curve being a little screwed, not being able to select main weapon before a level)

[undamned]

The PS2 beats the DC in every single department. It even raped the DC library of its good games.

If you are referring to MvC2 then lol. DC is still the only arcade perfect MvC2 machine.

And beyond that there are a grip of amazing games that PS2 never got. Soul Calibur, Power Stone games, etc., etc.
-ud

[Skykid]

Okay.

And the Playstation's controller was, and still is, an execrable piece of junk. It's such a misshapen piece of crap that I just won't bother getting one, even though some games interest me.

Piss. The DualShock is a better controller than at least the GameCube controller It isn't, the Dreamcast controllerAbout on par, the N64 controllerNot even close, the Xbox Controller/S (this is your "misshapen piece of crap")The S version was a fair improvement, and the Xbox 360 controller.No way The only oddity I've ever found are the strange triggers in the Sixaxis and the DualShock 3 And the lightweight feel, terrible d-pad and weak analog sticks - the DualShock was decent in the PS1 era, but it needed to evolve into something else with each successive generation.

[cools]

My memories of the DC:
JSR, MSR, SA, oodles of top notch arcade ports, everything playing in glorious 60fps crisp VGA, reliable as hell, comfortable and usable controller. Oh and ludicrously easy "backup play".

A great ratio of quality to crap too. I can't think of many shockingly poor DC games.

(Never bought a PlayStation 1/2/3, hate the DualShock with a passion)

[Skykid]

The PS2 beats the DC in every single department. It even raped the DC library of its good games.

If you are referring to MvC2 then lol. DC is still the only arcade perfect MvC2 machine.

And beyond that there are a grip of amazing games that PS2 never got. Soul Calibur, Power Stone games, etc., etc.
-ud

And SHENMUE damnit, what's with you guys!

[louisg]

This thread's getting way too emotional Anyway, I think if people were unsure as to why the DC has its share of fans, there is more than enough explanation in this thread!

[cools]

And SHENMUE damnit, what's with you guys!

:yawn:

[greg]

Why even mention the N64 controller? It's great if you're Zaphod Beeblebrox, but for the rest of us who only have two hands, it looks ridiculous. The DC controller is way better than that weird thing. Gosh, don't get me started on the N64. I will never own that system.

[drauch]

It baffles me to a point that I get pissed off.

sounds like you got some explaining of your own to do.

That's why I made the thread! But really, I mention a few posts back why it pisses me off, and that is because of the absurd amount of fanboys in my area. Everyone here has given good examples to why it is a good machine. Now, when someone tells me it's the best system ever because it had Crazy Taxi and MVC2, that's a bloody joke.

I think I'm satisfied with the results the thread got. It was an arcade port powerhouse, and the last machine to concentrate on doing so, and I guess that is reason to love it so much there. I guess it all boils down to taste, with a bit of nostalgia thrown in as well. And, like I said when I started the thread, I like the Dreamcast, but I still don't love it. Probably would help if would have had one at launch, yeah, but there just aren't many games on the system that I care too much about. It's all personal taste.

We don't have to fight anymore. You all have won me over. <3

[Stormwatch]

amazing games that PS2 never got
MvC2, Soul Calibur, Power Stone games, etc., etc.

And SHENMUE damnit, what's with you guys!

And... alphabetically: Alien Front Online, Border Down, Cosmic Smash, Daytona USA, Giga Wing, Giga Wing 2, Ikaruga, Jet Set Radio, Mars Matrix, Metropolis Street Racer, Outtrigger, Project Justice, Propeller Arena, Red Dog, Silver, Skies of Arcadia, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Starlancer, Toy Commander, Under Defeat, Zero Gunner 2 – just to mention a few.

[louisg]

Ok, so back to positivity, not negativity! My DC favorites are as follows:

Virtual On 2, Virtua Fighter (I'd take this over Soul Calibur any day of the week!), KOF '98 (though that PS2 one from last year is a better version now), Garou: Mark of the Wolves, Last Blade 2, Crazy Taxi, F355 Challenge, Test Drive: Le Mans (the 24h-in-10-minutes mode rules), Red Dog, Power Stone (and Power Stone 2 is cool too, though it's expensive now ), Under Defeat, Mars Matrix, San Francisco Rush: 2049 (loads of replay value on this one), Zero Gunner 2, Ikaruga, Cannon Spike, GigaWing 1. Daytona is also a really good arcade port, but you need a wheel to enjoy it.

One really cool thing that I like about the DC is that so many of these got domestic releases, including all the SNK fighters which came out on it back when they were still current.

It was also pretty exciting to have a system that was so tied in with the arcade scene. It's kind of like how cool it was when Sega started using GC and XBox hardware in the arcade- a game came out in the arcade, and then you could play a practically identical version at home around the same time. Imagine if that happened back when arcades weren't totally dead yet and there were still dozens of games coming out and being ported, and you'll have an idea of why people like this thing: sort of a cheaper Neo Geo experience.

EDIT: Yeah Outtrigger isn't perfect, but it's worth a try if you like Quake. It's essentially an arcade-ified Quake, but you'll want the mouse+controller setup. Also, I'd *almost* recommend the first Sonic Adventure. Just use the walkthrough to skip the horrible horrible painful "adventure" part and then do level select - and ignore the various bugs

[Skykid]

And SHENMUE damnit, what's with you guys!

:yawn:

[Strider77]

the GameCube version of Code: Veronica has nicer graphics

why do you say that?

[Daigohji]

I suppose part of the appeal is the generally strong catalogue of games. When I say strong I don't mean that every title was a classic, but rather that the overall percentage of games that were at least decent or tried something different was relatively high. Feed every Dreamcast title into a database, use a random number generator to pick one, and you have a good chance of being entertained. Trying that with the PS2's much higher crap to good ratio means you'd probably end up with a copy of one of these or worse.

Aside from that, the Dreamcast was a highly focused console. It was selling you a certain bracket of gaming experiences, not a lifestyle. It offered workable online gaming over dial-up. It had high quality visuals for a low price, and those visuals have mostly aged well thanks to extensive VGA support.

Part of it is nostalgia for a system that seemed to have more to offer than we ever got to see, but to me there's still a lot of good times to be had from that noisy little white box.

[Elixir]

Okay.

And the Playstation's controller was, and still is, an execrable piece of junk. It's such a misshapen piece of crap that I just won't bother getting one, even though some games interest me.

Piss. The DualShock is a better controller than at least the GameCube controller, the Dreamcast controller, the N64 controller, the Xbox Controller/S (this is your "misshapen piece of crap"), and the Xbox 360 controller. The only oddity I've ever found are the strange triggers in the Sixaxis and the DualShock 3.

Are you suffering from childhood controller attachment syndrome? I didn't pick up a Saturn pad until 2005 but I couldn't go back.

[Obiwanshinobi]

See, "better" isn't just about raw power; in fact, the PS2 could push quite a few more polygons. But it had some nasty downsides. It was harder to code for, and it had serious aliasing problems, so its early games looked quite worse than most Dreamcast games.

And yet in the year 2001 (quite early in the day) the likes of Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, Silent Hill 2 and Jak & Daxter came along. BG:DA on a CRT is STILL one of the best looking polygonal Diablo clones if you ask me (glitchy, flickering shadows here and there are its only technological downside; no aliasing issues in sight, though). Even in the year 2000 there was Sky Odyssey - maybe not much of a looker, but still, what a game!

Its optical drive was very unreliable in the first model, I hear.

I'd like to hear some cool stories about the DC drive's superiority to the early PS2 drive.

[Tigershark]

Good thread. Thanks to OP.

As a DC fan I'm not sure I know why I still love it as much as I do. I hardly (never) play the non-shooter games anymore but when I first got the DC I had not rediscovered my love of shooters.

Perhaps it's because it was always the underdog even post PS1 and pre PS2 (and we love an underdog us Brits)?

Perhaps it was because it was so lovely and small, had on-line capabilities and VGA?

Perhaps it was because we were sick of Sony's dominance and felt a pang of guilt about the way we treated the SS in the face of the Sony upstart and now regret our actions which spealled the end of Sega's console offering?

Personally I think it was probably all those things but also because of what most people have identified before that Sega were not afraid to release different and varied types of games.

I have two big stand out moments on the DC. The first was playing Code Veronica for the first time and the second was Shenmue. I have never to this day been as involved in a game as I was with the latter.

(oh, and by the way my DC was bought on release in the UK and is still working fine)

[Tylerxuppercut]

Dreamcast left a legacy nuff said! Its still amazes me to this day that people are still making games for it.

It had a short life but left a lasting impression.

[caldwert]

I had a DC from the day it came out, bought 5 games right off the bat, then didn't buy a game for over a year. Then all of a sudden a flood of badass games came out. I can vividly remember buying 4 and 5 brand new games a week for a while and being blown away at all of them. Virtua Tennis got played to death in my dorm. Then the PS2 hype campaign started and killed it off. Also, Mars Matrix for $20 new, can't complain there. To me its a time and place really. Early college, where priorities were video games and hanging out.

[neorichieb1971]

It is true that Sony killed Sega with a lie. One of the most effective propaganda machines going. The problem was not that Sony lied, but people wanted to believe it.

edit - For consoles the Dreamcast was the biggest leap jump even to this day. Well I think so. The leap from PS1/N64 to Soul Calibur was like

[caldwert]

Yeah, I remember the biggest N64 fanboys at the time being all pissed that dudes were flipping out when they first saw Soul Calibur. My roommate in college at the time thought I was the coolest guy ever since I let him play Dreamcast from the day of launch with no questions being asked of him at all. I just said, don't scratch the discs, and don't break anything.

[KBZ]

For many, the Dreamcast was it's launch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIyVhgc8WyM

[drauch]

For many, the Dreamcast was it's launch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIyVhgc8WyM

That video actually made me finally start this thread

[brentsg]

Pen Pen Triicelon was genius.