Will the PS2 be the last great console for 2d shmups?

[austere]

Ketsui 360 is and always will be, superior to the MAME version.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Ive never really understood how the Japanese game industry handles the PC. As there is a fantasic indie community that's genrally light years ahead of the western indie scene. One would of thought all that raw talent would also translate into a healthy commercial game industry on the PC, but instead all that can be found is shitty hentia visual novels and MMOs. Its like theres some strange bemuda triangle when it comes to Japanese commercial PC games.

EDIT Maybe the sheer difference between fan games and commericial games and the fact that theres some great fan games that could make lots of cash if marketed properly but just arnt. Maybe the fact that all this creative talent is somehow lost if or when the authors enter the real gaming industry, is indicative of a industry that is perhaps too rigid or is in some other way stopping innovation from the fan game side.

They handle it at retail believe it or not. Akihabara has stores with massive sections of shelf dedicated to PC indie games and they're all very nicely produced. I'm sure the quality varies, but there's probably a lot of great stuff we never even get a hint of in the west (I found the Skygunner doujin game particularly intriguing, looked like Panorama Cotton but with the SG visuals.)

Yea you have a point doujin sells well over there but my point is that theres hardly any proffessional PC games been made that isnt H or MMO (or atleast thats my impression been a westerner looking at whats on the net)

[Aisha]

Yea you have a point doujin sells well over there but my point is that theres hardly any proffessional PC games been made that isnt H or MMO (or atleast thats my impression been a westerner looking at whats on the net)

I found this to be a pretty interesting read about PC gaming in Japan. It's mostly about the Sharp/NEC/Fujitsu days: http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/JPNcom ... puters.htm

[Lance Boyle]

Ketsui 360 is and always will be, superior to the MAME version.

You heard it right here MAMEdevs, there's no point in improving Ketsui emulation anymore. It's a lost cause, lol.

[Elixir]

At least I don't make prophecies.

What does this even mean?

Ketsui 360 is and always will be, superior to the MAME version.

This isn't even up for debate. Online leaderboards, downloadable replays, X-mode... end of.

[Lance Boyle]

This isn't even up for debate.

So where's the petition box?

What does this even mean?

"Ketsui 360 is and always will be, superior to the MAME version."

That's a prophecy, and prophecies are stupid.

Online leaderboards, downloadable replays,

As if we don't already have those things for every STG emulated in MAME

[Obiwanshinobi]

At least I don't make prophecies.

What does this even mean?

It means that I don't make grand statements such as:

Ketsui 360 is and always will be, superior to the MAME version.

There will always be one major shmup console each generation, because the majority of shmup developers are small companies with limited resources that prevent them from spreading themselves across multiple platforms and remain viable as a business.

Without "actual facts" to back it up it's just some wishful thinking. "Always" sounds like one hell of a lot of time.

Ketsui 360 is and always will be, superior to the MAME version.

This isn't even up for debate. Online leaderboards, downloadable replays, X-mode... end of.

You had better live to see a good 360 emulator (and XBL emulator) then. Getting hold of a working unit, say, ten years after discontinuing might be tricky. "Always" sounds like a wee bit longer than ten years.

[Elixir]

"Ketsui 360 is and always will be, superior to the MAME version."

That's a prophecy, and prophecies are stupid.

Unless the 360 version is backported to PC, this is impossible. Backporting attempts from 360 to PC exist, but none of them became of anything.

As if we don't already have those things for every STG emulated in MAME

This would be true if every single shmup ever playable in had the ability to upload and download replays within itself.

[Skykid]

Obiwan, you're argument is regrettably baseless.

Which argument exactly? Quote please, not assumptions.

Okay, fair enough, let me fix the statement:

This entire argument is a regrettably pointless waste of time, but it's your time so I don't even know why I care.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I like my internet people this chilled out and easygoing.

[dcharlie]

I have never claimed PS3 to be exactly comparable to the 360. What I'm saying is: since I happen to like shmups available for the PS3 A LOT (more than just about anything by Cave), 360's library of shmups does not represent greater value for my money (and if it comes close, it's thanks to Raiden Fighters first and foremost). I would agree that 360 is of greater relevance for the so called "shmups community" as it's the only home platform you can play certain shmups on, but this kind of relevance, well, evaporates sooner or later as today's addition of DOJ and Ketsui to MAME shows.

still baffled - why get a PS3 at all? why not get a region free PS2 or... hell ... region free Ps1... OR emu it all on pc...???

[BIL]

Because this is a console war thread, where logic is secondary to being "right" about one's gamebox of choice.

[austere]

This isn't even up for debate. Online leaderboards, downloadable replays

All things which can be added with the appropriate initial savestate and breakpoints. The only reason people don't do this is it will hurt sales of the port. The potential superiority of the MAME version (that is, if extracted out of MAME and turned into a standalone program) over the port is for all intents and purposes is infinite. After all, your Xbox 360 will not last forever, nor will it be emulated in the foreseeable future.

X-mode... end of.

Meh. Could be done in theory, but we're talking about Ketsui, not some arrange mode by 5pb. X-Mode has no bearing on this debate which I believe is now over.

To be honest it's already better than Ketsui for the 360 to me -- no irritating anchovy* announcements.

* Otherwise known as achievements.

[Obiwanshinobi]

still baffled - why get a PS3 at all? why not get a region free PS2 or... hell ... region free Ps1... OR emu it all on pc...???

I'm not telling anybody to get a PS3, for ANY purpose. Even the likes of VC and PlayStation Classics came too late in the day and in a too lousy shape to be the selling point of this gen consoles (the last few Sega Ages 2500 releases came much closer to my idea of how this shit should be handled).
What makes a console "great for 2D shmups" is a matter of personal preference. This should be obvious without saying.
Do PlayStation Classics and VC make PS3 and Wii "great consoles for 2D shmups"? If you ask me, hell no, but at least they tried and either seems to have more shmups catering to my tastes than 360.
Do Psyvariars, Shikis, Homura and Cave games make the PS2 a "great console for 2D shmups"? If you ask somebody who's into them, probably yes, but if you ask me, some PSX games rock harder.
There's no denying that I'm so spoiled by the PC that any console unable to output ~240p RGB signal falls short of great when it comes to lo-res raster graphics (which I massively suck for). This alone affects my point of view prominently.

[Vyxx]

Ketsui 360 is and always will be, superior to the MAME version.

And the PCB is and will always be, superior to the 360 port.

No point in arguing, just be happy more and more people get to experience this awesome game.

[Elixir]

All things which can be added with the appropriate initial savestate and breakpoints. The only reason people don't do this is it will hurt sales of the port. The potential superiority of the MAME version (that is, if extracted out of MAME and turned into a standalone program) over the port is for all intents and purposes is infinite. After all, your Xbox 360 will not last forever, nor will it be emulated in the foreseeable future.

You can't say, at present, that people "don't do this due to influencing port sales". There aren't any online leaderboards or downloadable replays for MAME games (to my knowledge) (within the game).

A lot of "maybe"s and "if"s. Just because it can happen, doesn't mean it will. I can't think of many shmups which have bothered to become standalone besides Garemame.

My 360 may or not last forever, but there are enough to go around to ensure I have one for a lifetime. At present, the 360 version is superior, and will continue to be superior unless you pretty much replicate it.

Meh. Could be done in theory, but we're talking about Ketsui, not some arrange mode by 5pb. X-Mode has no bearing on this debate which I believe is now over.

I like how you reduce it to "some arrange mode". That "some arrange mode" is some people's superior version of Ketsui, and has evidently influenced a lot of long-running Ketsui players. For instance, MrMonkeyMan is currently rank #1, with a bunch of other forum players and Japanese players (misty3, bba, koiaji, etc) also in the Top 30.

I didn't bring up some other features of the 360 version, like the Arrange or stage selects, since the music could be inserted into the MAME version (although it probably won't be), and stage selects can be replaced with save states.

As it stands, the 360 port is definitely worth buying, and if you enjoy the MAME version, you should buy the 360 port to show your support.

To be honest it's already better than Ketsui for the 360 to me -- no irritating anchovy* announcements.

* Otherwise known as achievements.

You mean, those things that you can turn off, both from within the game and from the dashboard.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

For instance, MrMonkeyMan is currently rank #1, with a bunch of other forum players and Japanese players (misty3, bba, koiaji, etc) also in the Top 30.

Woot! I had no idea there was a western player at the top of any leaderboards that isnt Galaga or Geometry Wars Go west!