What is it with these TVs with super smooth framerates?

[GateofThunderforceIII]

I've been seeing these TVs on display at department/electronics stores that show some seriously smooth frame rates. The trouble is, they can be a little schizo and drop here and there...and also show some screen tearing. Is it this 240hz feature that is advertized for them? Can they have the same effect on games (wishful thinking)? I also noticed frame rates this smooth on broadcast cable TV once...I think it was FX or something...Too bad about the frame rate hiccups and screen tearing.

[linko9]

So on my friend's bigass Insignia LCD, everything you watch looks like a soap opera; I think it's taking the 24 fps of movies, and somehow bumping it up to 60 through frame interpolation or something... anyway, it looks absolutely awful, I haven't looked in the menu or anything to see if it can be turned off, since it's not my TV, but is this the same thing you're talking about? It can burn in hell, I don't know why anyone would ever want this "feature"... unless it could somehow make Ocarina of Time look like it's running at a better framerate... I should try that out.

[StarCreator]

You're probably seeing what's commonly referred to as "dejudder" video processing. It's indeed taking the source resolution and interpolating frames to artificially increase the framerate. It -usually- can be turned off.

A friend actually avoids televisions marketed at 120Hz because this is the "feature" most commonly used to demonstrate it, but as long as it can be turned off, you do no harm owning a 120Hz set - in fact, 120Hz sets perform better with 24fps content than a 60Hz set since the former refresh rate is evenly divisible by the source frame rate.

[neorichieb1971]

Its all marketting numbers that mean very little in the real world.

Its like cameras. 10.1 mega pixel, 14.0 megapixel. In reality you would need to blow that picture up 10x zoom on any normal size screen. Its rather overkill. But marketting junkies will make a 16 megapixel one just because it has the BIGGER number on it. Its the same with all these TV's. They have little to seperate them from each other so they use these numbers to make the buyer feel they are getting something MORE.

Don't get me started on contrast ratios, which mean absolutely NOTHING.

In the real world a 24p source will show each frame 5 times on a 120hz TV when it only needs to be shown once. If that excites you go for it. BTW, mine is 120hz, but thats because the model got praised not because its 120hz. Generally 120hz comes on anything above mid range.

[Ex-Cyber]

In the real world a 24p source will show each frame 5 times on a 120hz TV when it only needs to be shown once.

What's being discussed here is a feature that actually generates intermediate frames. I was skeptical when I first heard of this, but I have a TV with it now, and the difference is noticeable (whether you actually like the difference is another issue).

[brentsg]

It should also be noted that creating artificial frames for 120Hz or 240Hz introduces significant control lag for gaming.

[Fudoh]

Brent's right, lag is a serious problem with IFC (interframe creation). Newer Samsung LCD sets reach up to 10 frames with lag, while Sony sets get into the 4-frame range.

Also the implementation of IFC differs from manufacturer to manufacturer. Most IFC algorithms are geared towards 24p video, but - just as an example - Sony's newest versions also works on 60p material and makes it 120p. This is unimpressive because 60fps are already pretty smooth, but it's actually amazing on 30fps material. If you have a videogame running on 30fps (output as 60p) or a AVI running at 30Hz (e.g. Live shows like Conan O'Brian) the actual fps get doubled to 60fps. Looks stunning, actually very little rendering errors, but again - lots of lag.

[captpain]

Time to overclock your TV.

[StarCreator]

In the real world a 24p source will show each frame 5 times on a 120hz TV when it only needs to be shown once. If that excites you go for it. BTW, mine is 120hz, but thats because the model got praised not because its 120hz. Generally 120hz comes on anything above mid range.

120Hz is preferable for 24fps content because, as I said, the screen's refresh rate is evenly divisible by the framerate, meaning when the screen changes frames, it's changing closer to the correct time. This is not true of 60Hz displays, which have to make timing adjustments (or blend frames together).

To illustrate, say, let's mark when the screen changes with an X, and when the screen is not changing with a dash. On a 120Hz display, a ten frame sequence of 24fps content can be shown like:

X----X----X----X----X----X----X----X----X----X----

On a 60Hz display, it has to do:

X--X-X--X-X--X-X--X-X--X-

So the timing on some frames is off - an effect known as judder. And yes, it bugs the hell out of me if I'm watching on a display that suffers from it.

Getting back on topic, of course, the dejudder interpolation effect is simply the wrong way to solve the problem. You shouldn't try to create something from nothing.

[darklegion]

In the real world a 24p source will show each frame 5 times on a 120hz TV when it only needs to be shown once. If that excites you go for it. BTW, mine is 120hz, but thats because the model got praised not because its 120hz. Generally 120hz comes on anything above mid range.

120Hz is preferable for 24fps content because, as I said, the screen's refresh rate is evenly divisible by the framerate, meaning when the screen changes frames, it's changing closer to the correct time. This is not true of 60Hz displays, which have to make timing adjustments (or blend frames together).

120hz shouldn't be necessary for this use case, though, as many TVs that don't have 120hz, do have a 24hz mode. I can't say if it works with all sources, but it definitely makes 24fps bluray rips look a lot smoother.

[neorichieb1971]

In realtime mode all these gimmicks are pointless. No games run at 24 frames anyway. If they did they would need this shit.

A game runs at 60hz and therefore any 120hz gimmicks you might have only add interpolation once per two passes.

I am pretty sure interpolation is designed for 24 to make it look 60hz. If the game is already 60hz the naked eye won't detect a difference.

On another note Avatar 2 will be the first movie to work at 60fps.

[StarCreator]

120hz shouldn't be necessary for this use case, though, as many TVs that don't have 120hz, do have a 24hz mode. I can't say if it works with all sources, but it definitely makes 24fps bluray rips look a lot smoother.

This depends more on the scaler than the screen itself - from what I've read, it's cheaper to design a scaler that only operates at a single refresh rate, using either frame repetition or interpolation to display lower framerates. As a result, a lot of 60Hz sets I've seen rely on telecine techniques like I illustrated above - there are displays that handle it properly, but it's not as common at the low consumer end. Buying an advertised 120Hz set is really an easy way to guarantee you buy a set capable of actually displaying 24p with no judder - just have to make sure if it includes an interpolation mode that it can be turned off.

I also assume we're only talking about LCD here - Plasma is a completely different story.

[Endymion]

Some people like "the look" of 120Hz. I have to say, I'm one of them. I do not, however, like the loss of detail that is inherent with frame interpolation to achieve 120Hz. Even if you like 120Hz, or frame interpolation to get 120Hz, you should always turn off 120Hz (or 240Hz) if your TV does this when you are playing your games.

This whole thread is excellent, but this post in particular shows why it is a bad thing for games. Scroll down a touch.

[StarCreator]

Please don't talk as if "120Hz" is the dejudder motion interpolation. They're not the same thing.

[njiska]

Please don't talk as if "120Hz" is the dejudder motion interpolation. They're not the same thing.

Agreed. Nor is any other rate, 240hz, 96hz, what have you. They're just how often the image is being shown. My Pioneer Plasma does 96hz, but in 24p mode it just shows the same frame 4 times each. Image retention isn't strong enough for it to do a lower refresh without flickering.

Dejudder is very evil though. I once got into a shouting match with a saleman because he kept trying to upsell me a display with dejudder and i told him it looked like shit. Film needs it's low framerate or it feels off.

[Endymion]

Please don't talk as if "120Hz" is the dejudder motion interpolation. They're not the same thing.

I beg your pardon? I did not say this. I didn't even talk as if it were the case.

I will however repeat, only a fool who doesn't like the look of his games will ruin it by turning 120Hz on with a 120Hz HDTV. There just aren't any games short of your computer that run at 120Hz, so all your games, your classic, shmuppy ones included, are going to interpolate.

[neorichieb1971]

Post end video processing is not needed for gaming. The idea a console or computer is coded to produce X amount of frames natively is procisely what gives the player control. Adding or taking away frames will just feel un-natural.

[StarCreator]

I beg your pardon? I did not say this. I didn't even talk as if it were the case.

I will however repeat, only a fool who doesn't like the look of his games will ruin it by turning 120Hz on with a 120Hz HDTV. There just aren't any games short of your computer that run at 120Hz, so all your games, your classic, shmuppy ones included, are going to interpolate.

... you say you aren't doing it, then you do it again immediately after saying so. When you say "turning 120Hz on", you mean "turning dejudder interpolation on". You don't "turn 120Hz on".

[neorichieb1971]

Surely that depends.

Does 120hz mode incur that all 120 frames are different?

[Endymion]

I beg your pardon? I did not say this. I didn't even talk as if it were the case.

I will however repeat, only a fool who doesn't like the look of his games will ruin it by turning 120Hz on with a 120Hz HDTV. There just aren't any games short of your computer that run at 120Hz, so all your games, your classic, shmuppy ones included, are going to interpolate.

... you say you aren't doing it, then you do it again immediately after saying so. When you say "turning 120Hz on", you mean "turning dejudder interpolation on". You don't "turn 120Hz on".

No, I didn't do it again.

I see no reason to turn on 120Hz when 120Hz gives you nothing, absolutely nothing over 60Hz. In the scenario that you insist on presenting in your mind, that is precisely what 120Hz does. I'm saying that 120Hz televisions are worthless, really, and I don't mind if you feel the slight for your TV of choice. The only gain you will ever have with a 120Hz set is going to happen either from a 120Hz source, which you won't have with these games, or with frame interpolation. Now tell me, are you thrilled to have 120Hz at all in that instance?

[MachineAres 1CC]

So on my friend's bigass Insignia LCD, everything you watch looks like a soap opera; I think it's taking the 24 fps of movies, and somehow bumping it up to 60 through frame interpolation or something... anyway, it looks absolutely awful, I haven't looked in the menu or anything to see if it can be turned off, since it's not my TV, but is this the same thing you're talking about? It can burn in hell, I don't know why anyone would ever want this "feature"... unless it could somehow make Ocarina of Time look like it's running at a better framerate... I should try that out.

This. I absolutely HATE these high refresh rate TVs. Everything looks like a stage play or a soap opera and it completely defeats the purpose of...well...everything. When you watch a movie, you want it to look like a movie, not like you're standing in front of the actors on the sound stage. It removes the whole "magic" behind cinema and film. I couldn't agree with your post more. But for the most part, this doesn't change anything with games, as far as I understand, but if it did, I would probably hate it even more.

[Ed Oscuro]

How do you "turn on 120Hz" anyway? You'd need 120Hz source content to do that...console games won't do it, and no current PC games will run that high either (unless you seriously downgrade effects and have a very powerful multi-card setup).

The likely source of StarCreator's insistence that the two are linked is that 120Hz panels are often linked to the interpolation feature. 120 or 240Hz is a requirement of using interpolation, but interpolation is not a requirement of 120 or 240Hz. It's just a higher framerate. It should be possible in at least some panels to turn off interpolation, in which case the 120 or 240Hz panel will simply perform pulldown on frames - 5:5 or 10:10 pulldown respectively.

[StarCreator]

The likely source of StarCreator's insistence that the two are linked is that 120Hz panels are often linked to the interpolation feature. 120 or 240Hz is a requirement of using interpolation, but interpolation is not a requirement of 120 or 240Hz. It's just a higher framerate. It should be possible in at least some panels to turn off interpolation, in which case the 120 or 240Hz panel will simply perform pulldown on frames - 5:5 or 10:10 pulldown respectively.

Pretty much on the dot, and it should be possible to turn the interpolation off on nearly all the panels, so that buying a set advertised at 120Hz is a way of guaranteeing you don't end up with a TV that does something stupid like the 3:2 pulldown example I illustrated way earlier.

[njiska]

No, I didn't do it again.

I see no reason to turn on 120Hz when 120Hz gives you nothing, absolutely nothing over 60Hz. In the scenario that you insist on presenting in your mind, that is precisely what 120Hz does. I'm saying that 120Hz televisions are worthless, really, and I don't mind if you feel the slight for your TV of choice. The only gain you will ever have with a 120Hz set is going to happen either from a 120Hz source, which you won't have with these games, or with frame interpolation. Now tell me, are you thrilled to have 120Hz at all in that instance?

Um, you do know that a 120 Hz LCD will always be running at 120hz right? They generally don't do variable refresh. The question is what you do on those refreshes. Dejudder attempts to create some number of intermediate frames. If it's off than the display simple draws the same image 5 times if the source is 24fps or 4 times if the source is 30fps (or 29.97).

This does give and advantage over a 60hz display that has to do 3:2 pulldown for 24p content because it can refresh every frame an even number of times. Now this does change when moving to plasma which often has a true variable refresh rate.

[Pulsewidth]

On another note Avatar 2 will be the first movie to work at 60fps.

This is long overdue. Many years ago I watched some 60fps Showscan shorts at Futuroscope, France, and the improvement over 24fps was huge. I'd actually prefer 85Hz or higher, so each frame can be displayed very briefly to prevent sample and hold blur (like with a CRT) while avoiding visible flicker. "Film look" is terrible, and I don't understand why so many people insist that 24fps looks good.

[Strider77]

"Film look" is terrible, and I don't understand why so many people insist that 24fps looks good.

Your crazy... your telling me you'd prefer Raiders of the Lost Ark looking like a live broadcast?

[Ex-Cyber]

I don't understand why so many people insist that 24fps looks good.

This might be an NTSC regional thing, but a lot of people basically associate higher framerate with a feeling of "cheapness". This probably has to do with some crappy TV shows with shoestring budgets being shot on video cameras instead of film cameras.

[Pulsewidth]

Your crazy... your telling me you'd prefer Raiders of the Lost Ark looking like a live broadcast?

Of course. That way we could actually have some fast motion scenes without it turning into a jerky blurry mess.

[neorichieb1971]

24fps started in the film world. Those cinema reels were expensive to make. It was calculated the eye couldn't detect more than 24fps so the speed of the reel was adjusted so 24fps were recorded on the film reel. This kept the film reel as small and as cheap as possible.

It took almost 30 years to go from black and white to colour TV. It took another 35 years to get HD. Standards don't change very easily. In the past 10 years there have been so many changes forced on people that don't even see the difference in HD. Its a good job the screens went flat to give them another reason to buy. Now we got 3d etc etc.

Blu ray introduced 24p. Which is displaying each original REEL frame once. On DVD (NTSC) it did 3:2 pulldown. Which was display odd frames 3 times and even frames twice. 3x12 = 36, 2x12 =24. 36+24 = 60hz. On PAL it is 50hz, so they speeded up the film process so that 25 frames past every second and hoped you wouldn't notice the audio speed up. 2x25 = 50hz. Normally this would give the pal version a 3 minute shorter production due to the missing frame every second.

So now we are today and digital TV's display judder. Just look at the universal logo on any Universal blu ray and you will notice it judders across the screen. Interpolation would calculate the "inbetween" frames so that the logo would drift seemlessly across the screen.

So in a nutshell, 120hz technology is filling in blanks. Making 120 different frames out of 24. Which is 4 extra frames every 1/24th of a second. Which didn't exist on the original 35mm reel when it was created.

That is why interpolation exists.

I do not believe 60fps will make movies look less like film. If the movie is still stored on film I believe it will look like film wether its 24 or 60 fps. If Avatar 2 is 60fps it will not be stored on film. Cameron will make everyone with a cinema upgrade their tech again. Probably to PC's that have 30TB hard disc slots to house the movie.

The reason interpolation makes film look like broadcasted material is because its inventing something out of nothing. The interpolation process has a "look" in mind with its algorithm's and such.

[Strider77]

If the film is CRATED at a higher frame rate I'll give it a chance to win me over..... but artificially. No way.

But with films being shot now with HUGE budgets or with digital cameras like district 9 ect..... they run at 24 frames by choice. It's not some forced budget issue now.