Do easy games actually bring in new players?

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Cuilan
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Do easy games actually bring in new players?

Post by Cuilan »

<mod edit: What appears below started as part of the Guwange 360 thread. -inc.>


austere wrote:Which is to say it only appeals to extreme score hunters. People who don't play shooters often will not really appreciate a game for its score or survival for that matter. The challenging games which also give you score proportional to your skill are the best games. I can't wait to try out Aki Katana to confirm this fact once more. Anyway, to take your idea to the extreme, just remove dying all together and it'll appeal to people who don't play shooters at all -- for a full 15 minutes. So, I completely agree with Udderdude's comment.

Gamers with taste are a dying breed in general, however I think you're conflating the developer's actions (to dumb down the games and "compensate" by making them harder to score in) with the existing player's actions (to continue playing the old games ignoring shit like Aki Katana et al.). But yeah, I guess if they stop making good games, good-game gamers[tm] will be a dying breed indeed. :mrgreen:
That's a pretty arrogant and narrow-minded way of looking at it.

Shooters that are easy to get in to might encourage new players to start taking the games more and more seriously. I can definitely see someone buying the Guwange port due to the style/music/setting, starting off with 360 mode, getting into it, and then moving on to Blue mode, and then Arcade mode, and from there branching out to other shooters. "Taste" isn't something that materializes out of nothing; it has to be developed. And I'm pretty sure Cave sees it that way too. If Cave just wanted to appeal to casuals alone, their ports would only consist of "dumbed down" Novice modes, which isn't the case.

Attitudes like yours are what is killing the genre. But hey, if you want to continue living in your crumbling ivory tower completely isolated from reality, be my guest.
:lol:
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Do easy games actually bring in new players?

Post by clp »

Cuilan wrote:Shooters that are easy to get in to might encourage new players to start taking the games more and more seriously.
In a perfect world yes however this is not a perfect world , show me one person that started off on easy shooters and went on to do good things in hard games?
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by NzzpNzzp »

I started off on easy mode Touhous and now I'm well um kinda semi competent. 114 million in Ketsui, 5.2 million in Garegga. I mean, I'm not good or anything, I'm not getting into loops/stage 7, but I'm trying at least. If I'd had to start off with Ketsui or something of similar difficulty I woulda quit. Not that I'd even have known what Ketsui was.
Maybe I'll just shut up until I have a score with a letter in it. That'd be nice. One day.
Last edited by NzzpNzzp on Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by Elixir »

clp wrote:
Cuilan wrote:
Shooters that are easy to get in to might encourage new players to start taking the games more and more seriously.
In a perfect world yes however this is not a perfect world , show me one person that started off on easy shooters and went on to do good things in hard games?
Most of shmups forum? How many people jump into the deep end and actually stick with it?
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by dannnnn »

NzzpNzzp wrote:52 million in Garegga.
Maybe I'll just shut up until I have a score with a letter in it.
You won't get a letter score if you've gone through the entire alphabet :lol:
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by moozooh »

NzzpNzzp wrote:I started off on easy mode Touhous and now I'm well um kinda semi competent. 114 million in Ketsui, 52 million in Garegga. I mean, I'm not good or anything, I'm not getting into loops/stage 7, but I'm trying at least. If I'd had to start off with Ketsui or something of similar difficulty I woulda quit. Not that I'd even have known what Ketsui was.
Maybe I'll just shut up until I have a score with a letter in it. That'd be nice. One day.
Are you completely sure that's not 11.4 million and 5.2 million, respectively?
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Guwange 360

Post by clp »

Elixir wrote:
clp wrote:
Cuilan wrote:
Shooters that are easy to get in to might encourage new players to start taking the games more and more seriously.
In a perfect world yes however this is not a perfect world , show me one person that started off on easy shooters and went on to do good things in hard games?
Most of shmups forum? How many people jump into the deep end and actually stick with it?
Most of shmups forum .
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by NzzpNzzp »

Oh look, I'm a moron. Yeah, 5.2 million. My mistake. Decimal points are just too hard for me, it seems.

Ketsui is 114 million though. You think I'd bring it up if could only get 11.4? That's like, first stage stuff. Before the boss has even shown up.
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by Cuilan »

clp wrote:Most of shmups forum .
So you honestly believe this small corner of the internet (and your personal perception of it) is representative of the global shooter community as a whole?
:lol:
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by Elixir »

clp wrote:
Elixir wrote:
clp wrote:[In a perfect world yes however this is not a perfect world , show me one person that started off on easy shooters and went on to do good things in hard games?
Most of shmups forum? How many people jump into the deep end and actually stick with it?
Most of shmups forum .
How many people on this forum can 1cc the hardest shmups? Do you really think they didn't start with easier material?
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by clp »

who said anything about 1ccing? we are talking about challenge not those who have conquered and as a massive percentage of people get into shmups via mame id think this pretty much shows the general difficulty level noobs are exposed from the offset . Obviously it depends where we are setting the difficulty bar but still very few mame shmups are easy .
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by clp »

Cuilan wrote:
clp wrote:Most of shmups forum .
So you honestly believe this small corner of the internet (and your personal perception of it) is representative of the global shooter community as a whole?
cool i love it when people make assumptions and put words into peoples mouths and no i dont as i never said or implied that , the keyword in my previous response is shmups which is just before forum so yeh GUESS WHAT!!!!! im talking about this community moron.
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by Elixir »

clp wrote:who said anything about 1ccing? we are talking about challenge not those who have conquered and as a massive percentage of people get into shmups via mame id think this pretty much shows the general difficulty level noobs are exposed from the offset . Obviously it depends where we are setting the difficulty bar but still very few mame shmups are easy .
It doesn't have to be able 1ccing, but what you're saying is:

"People of this community started with difficult shmups, and have never played easy shmups beforehand."

Which of course you can't prove. I'm not even sure why you're using "the community itself" as a response, considering the community 1) already plays shmups and therefore 2) isn't part of the people who wish to get into the genre.
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by clp »

Elixir wrote:
clp wrote:who said anything about 1ccing? we are talking about challenge not those who have conquered and as a massive percentage of people get into shmups via mame id think this pretty much shows the general difficulty level noobs are exposed from the offset . Obviously it depends where we are setting the difficulty bar but still very few mame shmups are easy .
It doesn't have to be able 1ccing, but what you're saying is:

"People of this community started with difficult shmups, and have never played easy shmups beforehand."

Which of course you can't prove. I'm not even sure why you're using "the community itself" as a response, considering the community 1) already plays shmups and therefore 2) isn't part of the people who wish to get into the genre.
cool video games bro srs buisness . You havent set out a scale of difficulty either so this conversation can go no further as it stands.
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by Elixir »

I don't have to set anything. You can't prove the claim you're trying to make.

This is what's called a "devil's proof" - unable to deny the existence of something, unless physical proof exists of otherwise. I could make a thread asking whether people's first shmups were easy or hard (to of which most newcomers would see them all as difficult), but it isn't worth it just to prove a point. Likely you aren't going to do the same, but the probability of people entering with easy shmups is likely much greater.

Moreover, the people who actually have high scores on Mushi Ultra, Futari Ultra, Touhou Lunatic, DOJ and so forth, are also likely to have played other games in the genre of equal or lesser difficulty. Skill doesn't just magically materialize over night, but it can transition.

That aside, the people here are not the "getting into the genre" crowd. Novice modes/time attack/"bonus content" is perfectly fine, providing the original game is still here. I see you didn't address this, so I'll bring it up again.
Last edited by Elixir on Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by clp »

Elixir wrote:I don't have to set anything. You can't prove the claim you're trying to make.
loled.
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by Cuilan »

clp wrote:cool i love it when people make assumptions and put words into peoples mouths and no i dont as i never said or implied that , the keyword in my previous response is shmups which is just before forum so yeh GUESS WHAT!!!!! im talking about this community moron.
You start your first reply with "in a perfect world", and then in a follow-up post you say "most of shmups forum". So that's exactly what you implied moron.

In any case, you have been proven wrong, since there's a person in this very thread who admitted that they started off easy and moved on to harder difficulties...moron
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by BulletMagnet »

This thread's about two seconds away from a lock: back on topic or I start recommending bans.
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by clp »

Cuilan wrote:
clp wrote:cool i love it when people make assumptions and put words into peoples mouths and no i dont as i never said or implied that , the keyword in my previous response is shmups which is just before forum so yeh GUESS WHAT!!!!! im talking about this community moron.
You start your first reply with "in a perfect world", and then in a follow-up post you say "most of shmups forum". So that's exactly what you implied moron.

In any case, you have been proven wrong, since there's a person in this very thread who admitted that they started off easy and moved on to harder difficulties...moron
Wow you people take video games seriously , its fucking embarrassing .
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by njiska »

clp wrote:
Cuilan wrote:
clp wrote:cool i love it when people make assumptions and put words into peoples mouths and no i dont as i never said or implied that , the keyword in my previous response is shmups which is just before forum so yeh GUESS WHAT!!!!! im talking about this community moron.
You start your first reply with "in a perfect world", and then in a follow-up post you say "most of shmups forum". So that's exactly what you implied moron.

In any case, you have been proven wrong, since there's a person in this very thread who admitted that they started off easy and moved on to harder difficulties...moron
Wow you people take video games seriously , its fucking embarrassing .
Will you people please just listen to Bullet Magnet for once and stop this conversation. Seriously no matter what side of the argument you're on it's embarrassing to everyone. I want to actually be able to talk about Guwange here and both sides of this squabble are ruining it. Be the bigger man, bite the bullet and just drop it out right.

Mods, do you think we could at least prune the bullshit out of this thread so that the temptation to continue it is gone, rather than just locking it outright?
chempop wrote:Anyone know if Guwange has been a success for Cave?
According to Major Nelson it was the third most played XBLA game for the week of Nov. 8th, so I'd say it's selling well. Looks like it bested Super Meat Boy - http://majornelson.com/archive/2010/11/ ... nov-8.aspx
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Re: Guwange 360

Post by spadgy »

EDIT! By the time I'd hit 'submit', after being distracted by my house suddenly filling with my wife and her friends, the thread had already been split, making my comments about getting the Guwange thread on topic redundant. I was right of course :wink:

Still, maybe we can prove that this split thread can still be saved. Maybe...
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Re: Do easy games actually bring in new players?

Post by Cuilan »

For the sake of completion and context, I'd recommend this thread also include every post from the other thread where someone complains about (or defends) the inclusion of 360 Arrange mode. Also, it would be better if the title said "easy modes" instead of "easy games". But regardless, I'm pretty much done talking about the subject.
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Re: Do easy games actually bring in new players?

Post by Aguraki »

I beat raiden 3 in very easy then easy mode first.
Now I'm trying to beat normal mode,and one day I'll go with arcade mode.
Did the same with blue wish resurrection.

I love to have differents difficulty levels,that allows me to be happy and beat the game at my level.
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Re: Do easy games actually bring in new players?

Post by Seahawk »

The first shooting game I took seriously was Gradius III on the SNES for Wii Virtual Console a few years ago, on normal mode. At the end it tells you to take on Hard Mode. Eventually I managed to beat Arcade mode without dying.

Then I played Axelay, working up to a triple loop clear from normal mode, to see the promise of 'Axelay 2' at the end.

Then I discovered MAME, and 1cc'ed a whole bunch of games, including the AC version of Gradius III on the hardest difficulty.
(http://www.youtube.com/user/Seahawk0027 ... e=mhsn#g/p)

And I'm still interested in other shooting games: Ikaruga, Gradius V, Rayforce, Raizing stuff, even though I haven't beaten them.

It's been fun climbing the ladder, and I would never have started if the price of entry to the genre was taking on something like Battle Garegga first.
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Re: Do easy games actually bring in new players?

Post by austere »

Also, it would be better if the title said "easy modes" instead of "easy games".
Which is precisely what you didn't actually reply to. If you want full context, include Udderdude's comment your own reply and mine. Then again, what is the use of context when combined with zero reading comprehension? The title is fine. The answer is obvious.

Creating a game (not just a mode) that is hardly challenging and compensating it for score will not work. It doesn't have to be fucking DOJ from the get go for everyone, it would be ideal if the challenge built up gradually. Mushihimesama Futari is a great example, Cave did really well with the selection of three modes with both variety and different grades of difficulty. Having an easy mode is not entirely bad ... I wouldn't use it myself, but having an easy game as the primary (and let us say, only) option totally blows. There's nothing to build up to, except maybe score and only ESH (herein, extreme score hunters) would really be into that.
But regardless, I'm pretty much done talking about the subject.
Oh, we'll see about that. Now that the thread has been split, I will certainly reply to your post:
That's a pretty arrogant and narrow-minded way of looking at it.
Yeah, I guess it's arrogant to hold a point of view opposed to yours right? The way you used "narrow-minded" can either be construed as insane or ignorant. Ignorant because, if you meant I didn't consider the opposing view (which I obviously did, before arriving at my conclusion). Insane if you think that one must hold all points of view simultaneously and in equal weight to be "broad-minded".
Shooters that are easy to get in to might encourage new players to start taking the games more and more seriously.
On the contrary, shooters that are easy are more likely to encourage new players to seek shooters (if they enjoyed their time with it) of similar difficulty, if left to their own accord. No idea what you mean by "more seriously". Do you think it will make them play for score? Please clarify this before I continue on this point.
I can definitely see someone buying the Guwange port due to the style/music/setting, starting off with 360 mode, getting into it, and then moving on to Blue mode, and then Arcade mode, and from there branching out to other shooters.
Well ... there will be exceptions, for example, perhaps the guys above (if they weren't clearly into shooters previously). For each of them however, ten people will pick up the Guwange port (for whatever strange reason, if they were to stumble upon it RANDOMLY) will play the 360 arrange mode, credit feed it, switch to the blue mode, then wonder why the hell they cannot control the shikigami independently anymore. Then he'll switch to another game and that's the end of that. For your future reference, the only effective way to make use of the novice modes/easy arranges, is to directly introduce a friend to shooters using them. They will rarely take up proper shooters from their experience alone, not without a little bit of encouragement and guidance from an existing player. (More on this later in another reply, coming soon to a thread near you!)
"Taste" isn't something that materializes out of nothing; it has to be developed.
(This notion will be destroyed in a more relevant thread soon as well.)
If Cave just wanted to appeal to casuals alone, their ports would only consist of "dumbed down" Novice modes, which isn't the case.
The point we're discussing is not the inclusion of modes, it's the direction of emphasis on scoring rather than survival as a utility for introducing new players to shooters. The suggestion of exclusion of standard modes (and the idea that Cave wants casuals as their primary audience) is clearly a non sequitur. I don't think many people have a problem with arrange modes that are easier than the original modes, it's just that they are expected to have some standard of quality.
Attitudes like yours are what is killing the genre.
This idea ... it is repeated again and again, ad nauseam with little thought towards the veracity of the claim. "Attitudes" of some individuals alone do not kill off a "genre" (in this context, a sub-genre really, shooters), it takes a mass-shift in "attitudes" to kill off a "genre". The notion is derived from watching someone try out a game and having a child tell them off for not playing properly, or whatever. You can see instantly that it is quite juvenile, what you're saying is that criticism and an eye for quality alone will kill off shooters... that simply isn't true for anything else. A bad community (but exclusively large), filled with people who refuse to help new comers realise which qualities to look out for, is an element that will send shooters into decline, however. Anyway, if you disagree, call a movie critic and tell him to stop bad mouthing an example of genre x because the criticism is causing the death of the genre! LMAO.
But hey, if you want to continue living in your crumbling ivory tower completely isolated from reality, be my guest.
But hey, if I want to continue living in my mountain side apartment completely isolated from the sewers underneath, why not right?
Last edited by austere on Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Do easy games actually bring in new players?

Post by gs68 »

Unfortuantely, there are already many people who aren't very proficient at shmups, and have the impression that places like this are full of elitist assholes who will come over to your house and murder you in your sleep for, say, not 1CC'ing Touhou on Normal.

Needless to say, lol vocal minority
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Re: Do easy games actually bring in new players?

Post by austere »

Yeah, but that notion is clearly bullshit. I posted a puny score in jpj's DOJ hi score thread, no one came up and laughed at it. Even if they did, I'd interpret it as a sign of encouragement. It's fine to criticise people spreading poor quality information (for example, that idiot with the Guwange "walk through" credit feeding video). If we as STG fans don't do it, who the fuck will??? Where will new comers get their good information from?
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Re: Do easy games actually bring in new players?

Post by TLB »

gs68 wrote:Needless to say, lol vocal minority
Not to sound anything like Nixon, but that's bullshit. Lots of good players don't even look at this shit subforum because of all the girly retardation going on here. There may not be quite a majority, but there is a big, "silent" group of scoring players who aren't enormous pussies like the rest of shunpz farm chats.



PS: Step 1 for a new STG player: Avoid Elixir's posts.
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Re: Do easy games actually bring in new players?

Post by xris »

I would like to think that easier shmups would help to bring in new players, but truth is there still has to be some kind of interest in their part to begin with. Experiences with easy shmups can help to build confidence and skill with the genre, this I say with my own experience of course. Sure I had played plenty growing up, shmups have always been part of my gaming, I just didn't do more than pump credits in it and shoot the hell outta stuff, good fun. Flash forward, Ikaruga on game cube, credits and pretty colours. Shikigami No Shiro on PS2, now this kinda captivated me, it did well to limit credits to nine. I had to improve just to see the end, at that time it was a good play through when I got all the way through. Shiki 2, this I thought was a little easier ( mostly 'cause you don't change power level) and I started shaving credits off, really I just wanted to beat it without continuing, I thought it would be bad ass. Then, my turning point came from a really surprising game, Triggerheart on 360. I was playing it on easy ( pretty good, you can shoot some of the enemy bullets), I get to the final boss and I'm wondering if I had died yet, then the achievement popped up for no miss clear. At that very moment I knew that it was on! Next up I earned my clear in Ikaruga ( on easy, good place for mid level players), and proceeded to tear Shiki 2 apart, amazed by my new found skill. Went back to Triggerheart and earn a clear in hard, this actually taught me alot about rank control without me realising it, I just didn't want to fight every boss form. It was this progression from easier games that led me to new challenges.
Now, too easy is a bad thing. Some of the Novice modes of late are way too easy, there's no progression, and the jump of difficulty from that to the normal game can be huge. The best example for me is probably Deathsmiles, it's on the cusp of a little too easy to really hold my attention. Now, please, don't get me wrong, this is actually one of the best games that has a varied difficulty for all players. Sure, I can ramp it up so it is rather hard for me, but I was able to clear it almost immediately, so I kinda didn't feel challenged. Mushihimesama Futari, I really struggle with it on Original, and can't stop playing it because of that, I want to see improvement, I want to stand up and cheer when I do finally clear it. Some days though, I'll play Arrange or Novice just 'cause I wanna shoot shit.
It's really difficult to find that sweet spot that can allow as many player as possible to really enjoy the game. Cave seems to be really trying for it, and is getting closer with each release.
Let people screw around with easy games, show them challenges they can over come, victory tastes sweet, but an easy win feels hallow. Most players will gravitate toward harder games when they are ready.
One of the best pushes for shmuppers to improve.. Achievements. Many players will at least try to do things outside of their skill level just for that little marker that says, I'm awesome, I did that, here's proof.
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Re: Do easy games actually bring in new players?

Post by gs68 »

austere wrote:Yeah, but that notion is clearly bullshit. I posted a puny score in jpj's DOJ hi score thread, no one came up and laughed at it. Even if they did, I'd interpret it as a sign of encouragement. It's fine to criticise people spreading poor quality information (for example, that idiot with the Guwange "walk through" credit feeding video). If we as STG fans don't do it, who the fuck will??? Where will new comers get their good information from?
Well, over a year ago, I did post a thread about Thunder Force III and IV expressing my dissatisfaction with how cheap the games were. In the case of TF3, I got a lot of shit over it. It's a thread that I'd like to forget I ever posted or saw.

or just hang out in #shmups when it's busy for at least 20 minutes
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