Black Labels where the game's easier than original, etc.

[gs68]

i.e. Futari BL vs. Futari 1.5, Espgaluda II BL vs. Esp2 vanilla, etc.

It doesn't feel right, I enjoy playing Futari BL Maniac over playing 1.5 Maniac (which instead pisses me off), yet I feel like I'm spoiling myself because BL Maniac simplifies the hell out of 1.5 Maniac's scoring, to the point where one poster said that enemy placement and the difference between "popcorn" enemies and more durable enemies becomes meaningless.

Moreover, Futari BL is easier than 1.5. I've ALL'd BL Original at least three times, and nearly finished off the final boss in Maniac, but I haven't even seen the Stage 5 midboss of 1.5 Orignal. It feels like my BL Original 1CC's don't count, that Cave games not named Deathsmiles should not be THIS easy.

Esp2: You have to do some rather annoying stuff to score high. I've lost track of how many times I restarted the first stage because I couldn't do the trick to get 15+ mil before the midboss. Esp2 BL is much more fun to play.

I feel like unless I've gotten down the harder original version, that I should not be permitted to play BL. It's fun to be able to screw around and survive longer more easily, but I feel like a spoiled rich kid when I play those modes.

[CHY]

i.e. Futari BL vs. Futari 1.5, Espgaluda II BL vs. Esp2 vanilla, etc.

It doesn't feel right, I enjoy playing Futari BL Maniac over playing 1.5 Maniac (which instead pisses me off), yet I feel like I'm spoiling myself because BL Maniac simplifies the hell out of 1.5 Maniac's scoring, to the point where one poster said that enemy placement and the difference between "popcorn" enemies and more durable enemies becomes meaningless.

Moreover, Futari BL is easier than 1.5. I've ALL'd BL Original at least three times, and nearly finished off the final boss in Maniac, but I haven't even seen the midboss of 1.5 Orignal. It feels like my BL Original 1CC's don't count.

Esp2: You have to do some rather annoying stuff to score high. I've lost track of how many times I restarted the first stage because I couldn't do the trick to get 15+ mil before the midboss. Esp2 BL is much more fun to play.

I feel like unless I've gotten down the harder original version, that I should not be permitted to play BL. It's fun to be able to screw around and survive longer more easily, but I feel like a spoiled rich kid when I play those modes.

I think BL are improving not easily- -
Compare with 1.5,mushi bl's Original mode is "easiler" to ALL,but much harder to reach a high score.and more fun to play that...

[apatia77]

I think it's great that we get BL and that it makes the games a little or a lot easier. I think it can give an opportunity to other not so skilled player actually complete the game or at least enjoy it more. Do not forget that not all shmup players are hardcore and very talented players that can 1cc Cave games.

Also it gives you an option, you don't have to play BL if you feel that the game was made too easy and you can always stick to the original.

I would love more and more shmups to actually have BL/easy mode for us not so skilled players.

[Drachenherz]

Sorry for this nOOb question, but can it be taken as a rule that black labels are usually easier than the original modes???

[apatia77]

Sorry for this nOOb question, but can it be taken as a rule that black labels are usually easier than the original modes???

Yes, this has been the case with BL games so far.

[Drachenherz]

Sorry for this nOOb question, but can it be taken as a rule that black labels are usually easier than the original modes???

Yes, this has been the case with BL games so far.

And here I go, always playing the original games (Esp II and Mushi Futari) for fearing getting even more raped on the black labels... 'doh...

Thanks for the clarification.

(Yeah, I could have tried them myself, but I was... too intimidated to even look into the BL modes... yeah, I know...)

[evil_ash_xero]

Isn't DFK's BL tougher than the original?

[apatia77]

Sorry for this nOOb question, but can it be taken as a rule that black labels are usually easier than the original modes???

Yes, this has been the case with BL games so far.

And here I go, always playing the original games (Esp II and Mushi Futari) for fearing getting even more raped on the black labels... 'doh...

Thanks for the clarification.

(Yeah, I could have tried them myself, but I was... too intimidated to even look into the BL modes... yeah, I know...)

A lot of people made their first Cave 1cc by playing Mushihimesama Futari Black Label as it made the game considerably easier, especially the boss fights which go down much faster.

[Jockel]

Isn't DFK's BL tougher than the original?

That's right, DFK BL is tougher.

[gs68]

And here I go, always playing the original games (Esp II and Mushi Futari) for fearing getting even more raped on the black labels... 'doh...

Thanks for the clarification.

(Yeah, I could have tried them myself, but I was... too intimidated to even look into the BL modes... yeah, I know...)

To my knowledge, the only BLs that are harder than their original counterparts are Deathsmiles on Level 999 and DFKBL as already mentioned.

Getting back on topic, I think my attitude towards BLs stems from when I tried to get into Tetris TGM by playing clones of TGM3 first, which proved to be a terrible idea when I tried to play TGM2+ and had trouble rotating I blocks. Since then I've taken to trying to learn the older and typically-harder variant of a game first before trying the less restrictive modes.

[Bananamatic]

Is DFK BL really THAT hard though? Even looking at the TLB, most runs I've seen are hyper/bomb spam with very little dodging.

Anyways...aren't most of these special modes like extra or BL mostly about scoring, rather than the 1cc?

[Taylor]

Early in a games life all TLB runs are people saving resources all game to spam on the final boss. Compared to white label you get less bombs, hypers last shorter and hyper rank carries. And to score you need to never bomb, only hyper at the start of the stage for +hit, and boost up the rank bar of doom. Plus supposedly there's still a hidden boss in there.

I'd also take issue with Futari Black Label. Sure, it has a much lower skill floor and easier 1CC, but the skill ceiling goes higher as well. Original at 100k counter? Bullets go double speed. God TLB requirements? 1LC the entire game. Maniac... well, yeah.

[moozooh]

I believe all (or at least most of) the Black Labels so far have had a much greater difference (dynamic range, pretty much) in difficulty between simple survival runs and extreme scoring runs. AFAIK, DFK BL actually is pretty much the same as WL as long as you never go into the Red mode or use hypers. Probably even easier with autobomb on where applicable, considering it's single-loop. Nowhere near, say, DOJ second loop (let alone Ketsui Ura) as far as I'm concerned, anyway.

[njiska]

I don't really see much point to measuring the quality of a Label variant compared to the main game. For the most part they either exist to fix balance issues (DOJ. Under today's naming system it'd probably be 1.5) or they're just an interesting remix mix of the original (Mushi Futari, DFK). Futari often gets called out for being a bad BL because it's easier, but you try spending an entire run of original 4px away from an enemy and tell me it isn't exhilarating. An easier 1CC does not necessarily mean a less fun experience.

Ultimately this is all about personal preference. Different people like different things and if your basing your opinion on scoring, difficulty to 1CC, art or whatever else catches your fancy, fine. But don't just compare it to the original, take it on it's own merits.

[Taylor]

AFAIK, DFK BL actually is pretty much the same as WL as long as you never go into the Red mode or use hypers. Probably even easier with autobomb on where applicable, considering it's single-loop.

Well, in addition to the changes listed above with the auto-bomb and hypers (which you will use), another reason BL is harder is because you can't pick Strong (well, you can, but you'll get Ura Loop patterns) so even when going for the easiest clear you will need to fight patterns you can usually avoid because WL Strong is stupid. And in BL Bomb and Normal Power will no longer push back big lasers (they'll just kill you).

For instance Stage 2 boss will now do her Hadouken pattern instead of dying and you cannot sit under her while she does it. The stage 3 boss will do several iterations of her final patterns, and if you purposely avoid damaging her during the suicide bullet one the other wave in that phase gets really nasty

Also note that some enemies now fire a lot more bullets but they can be cancelled if you kill the source with A+C, and using A+C mode causes more damage. So even playing for survival you will be using A+C and making sure it doesn’t go over. For score or a cheap 1CC I'd say BL was harder.

Nowhere near, say, DOJ second loop (let alone Ketsui Ura) as far as I'm concerned, anyway.

No, but why are you comparing an assumed easiest clear of DFKBL against the hardest challenges in these games?

[brentsg]

I believe all (or at least most of) the Black Labels so far have had a much greater difference (dynamic range, pretty much) in difficulty between simple survival runs and extreme scoring runs. AFAIK, DFK BL actually is pretty much the same as WL as long as you never go into the Red mode or use hypers. Probably even easier with autobomb on where applicable, considering it's single-loop. Nowhere near, say, DOJ second loop (let alone Ketsui Ura) as far as I'm concerned, anyway.

I think this is pretty much the response I'd write. I do think DFK BL is much harder, but that's because I don't see any point in avoiding red mode. It's simply too much fun. I think I did one run where I -tried- to lay off the red, and it was a fairly easy credit deep into stage 5.. but that being said I still couldn't resist a bit of red here and there.

For the most part I prefer the BL releases, but I can see how some might prefer various original scoring.. especially on DesthSmiles and Futari Original Mode. But in general playing a BL for score is a very different experience across the board.

[Square King]

I've always thought BL meant a more difficult remix of the main game as well. I remember Arcanacra's BL being super tough. Then again, maybe it was called Death Label instead...

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Keim's brilliant flash / java shmup aranacra isquite allot harder the BL, BL i believe gives more extends, where as the original white label gives 2 or 3 in total.

While BL are usually revisions its what they alter can make the game easier or harder. For example DFK BL removing those hibachi safespots

[Bananamatic]

Keim's brilliant flash / java shmup aranacra isquite allot harder the BL, BL i believe gives more extends, where as the original white label gives 2 or 3 in total.

While BL are usually revisions its what they alter can make the game easier or harder. For example DFK BL removing those hibachi safespots

The fun part is a glitch in DFK BL allowing you to safespot Hibachi's first 2 attacks...dunno why didn't they fix it yet, the game is out for 10 months or so...

[moozooh]

I believe the glitch is a result of object overload (the attack is normally denser compared to WL), which might be not too easy to fix without making SH3 more powerful. Maybe that's why they didn't bother.

[Skykid]

Your progress should really be based on scoring in any version you play. Futari BL original is a much easier 1cc than 1.5 original, but the scoring is considerably difficult (and in some cases even more difficult than 1.5).

I don't think you're fobbing yourself off at all. A 1CC is a 1CC, and if that's all your after, get done what you can and then aim for something tougher next time.

As mentioned, BL doesn't always mean easier, I don't think Cave make them that way as a general rule. Was DSBL easier than Vanilla (with the exception of Sakura as a character?)
Even DOJ BL is barely easier, just re-balanced to offer a fairer game.

[sjewkestheloon]

From my perspective as someone who experiences these games through ports (and then only very occasionally) I don't see why an easier BL edition affects anything. Don't like it? Play 1.5. Or 1.01 for Futari.

Seriously though don't play 1.01. It hurts.

[chempop]

When futari 360 released I made a conscious effort to stick with each mode for a while before moving on to the next. Didn't take long to clear original1.5, but maniac stumped me good. Told myself I'd give it a year, still no dice, so just last weekend I grabbed BL - at first it seemed harder, but it was just an adjustment period I think ( are the bullets faster?). Original BL was no problem, and maniac BL finally went down, haha! Sorry to rant, just really proud of this clear.

So... Should I improve my BL score (is currently shy of 300mil), go back and give 1.5 another shot, or move on to God Mode?

[stryc9]

Futari Black Label- Yeah I only snagged this recently myself, I noticed the bosses go down quicker, but their bullets are faster. I still seem to get overwhelmed a little on the last part of stage 3 (before the Boss) with those bloody slater things and everything else on top of that. It certainly seems easier for the first few levels though, what with your slightly improved basic shot and so on. Galuda 2 seems a fair bit easier in BL as well (at least to start with) cos you can 'take hits'. But then the original is just pretty rock hard right off the bat. As far as I'm concerned it's almost as tough as Ketsui.

[chempop]

Just popped in Deathsmiles Platinum for the first time and gave MBL a try, it's awesome! Seems harder than the original, but it's been ages since I played the game so I don't really know. I play on rank-3 and made it to the Ice Palace which I'd never seen before, got pretty hosed about half way through, nice level though.

I've heard that MBL has inaccurate slowdown (not enough?), what's the scoop on that? I was always partial to V1.1 because I didn't own a stick when I first got the game way back when. Thinking I won't bother going through the hassle to download MBLv1.1, is it worth it?

[brentsg]

Just popped in Deathsmiles Platinum for the first time and gave MBL a try, it's awesome! Seems harder than the original, but it's been ages since I played the game so I don't really know. I play on rank-3 and made it to the Ice Palace which I'd never seen before, got pretty hosed about half way through, nice level though.

I've heard that MBL has inaccurate slowdown (not enough?), what's the scoop on that? I was always partial to V1.1 because I didn't own a stick when I first got the game way back when. Thinking I won't bother going through the hassle to download MBLv1.1, is it worth it?

If you were partial to 1.1 then it's worth it. I think MBL 1.1 is great.

[chempop]

I think rank-999 will do for now

I Was partial to v1.1 but once I got a stick it became kinda obsolete. Now going back to the pad seems painful, and I think my D-buttons are starting to flake on me. Maybe if I mod my control pad and get it working properly again I'll give it a shot.

[Shalashaska]

AFAIK, DFK BL actually is pretty much the same as WL as long as you never go into the Red mode or use hypers. Probably even easier with autobomb on where applicable, considering it's single-loop.

Well, in addition to the changes listed above with the auto-bomb and hypers (which you will use), another reason BL is harder is because you can't pick Strong (well, you can, but you'll get Ura Loop patterns) so even when going for the easiest clear you will need to fight patterns you can usually avoid because WL Strong is stupid. And in BL Bomb and Normal Power will no longer push back big lasers (they'll just kill you).

For instance Stage 2 boss will now do her Hadouken pattern instead of dying and you cannot sit under her while she does it. The stage 3 boss will do several iterations of her final patterns, and if you purposely avoid damaging her during the suicide bullet one the other wave in that phase gets really nasty

Also note that some enemies now fire a lot more bullets but they can be cancelled if you kill the source with A+C, and using A+C mode causes more damage. So even playing for survival you will be using A+C and making sure it doesn’t go over. For score or a cheap 1CC I'd say BL was harder.

You can still easily kill the Stage 2 and 3 boss before they even get to their final pattern though.

I'd say they're about equal. BL has the red mode but it doesn't make it that much harder and added things like bees canceling bullets, canceling regular enemies bullets by killing them (the big ships in Stage 2, the ships at the start of Stage 3, etc.) can actually make some parts easier. Plus you can still just hyper cancel everything. I really like the Mushi type structure of Bomb=Original, Power=Maniac, Strong=Ultra in BL though and think it's more fun overall.

[Skykid]

Galuda 2 seems a fair bit easier in BL as well (at least to start with) cos you can 'take hits'. But then the original is just pretty rock hard right off the bat. As far as I'm concerned it's almost as tough as Ketsui.

I actually think it's slightly tougher.