Japanese gaming is dead

[Drum]

If you're looking for more abstract games, don't go looking for them at retail on the PS3 or 360. They exist (Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts, Viva Pinata, Brutal Legend, Ratchet and Clank, Little Big Planet, 3D Dot Game Heroes, Valkyria Chronicles, Disgaea 3, Bayonetta is so bananas it probably counts), but they are an extreme rarity compared to previous generations and they're going to get rarer and rarer from now on. That, at least, is not a delusion on neorichie's part - the massive budgets/demographical drive for realistic fantasies means they are a risky endeavour and they just don't get made like they used to. In the $10 million-and-up-budget level, abstract creativity is pretty much a wasteland. That is neither surprising or even unfortunate. Most of the offerings are from first parties looking to cast their net a little wider, because games like that aren't as risky for them (no royalties), so they release them at a typically lower price. As XBLA/PSN downloads, in the pc indie scene and on Wii and handhelds they have flourished - it's like a return to the days of the C64/NES/mid-late 80s arcade scene in sheer nonsensical goodness. Sometimes the games coming out are a little too reverent to old-school games, or a little too up their own asses, or a little too anemic in terms of gameplay, but there are a shitload of them. So I completely disagree with neorichie and Skykid on that score.

Go play Super Meat Boy, Limbo, Costume Quest, Super Mario Galaxy, Shantae: Risky's Revenge, Paper Moon, Space Invaders Extreme, Castlevania:Order of Ecclesia, Kirby's Epic Yarn, Super Princess Peach, La Mulana, And Yet it Moves, World of Goo, Dildo Tank, Cactus' games, Patapon, Prinny:Can I Really Be the Hero, Loco Roco, Wario Land:Shake, Tatsunoko vs Capcom, BlazBlu, Death Worm, Kirby's Canvas Curse, Dungeon Crawl, Dwarf Fortress, Wario Ware, Machinarium, Rocket Slime, Invisible Vision, Invalid Tangram, Contra 4, Eets, Explosion Man, Comic Jumper, EnviroBear 2000, Meteos, Lumines, Sin and Punishment 2, Muramasa:The Demon Blade, Stone Soup, Cave Story, A Game With a Kitty, N+, Lyle's Adventures in Cube Sector, Liquisity, PUNISHMENT, Crush, Knytt Stories, Braid, Minecraft, Ultimate Ghouls n Chosts, Gesundheit, Ys 7, Ys Oath in Felghana, ClaDun, What Have I Done to Deserve This My Lord?, Bangaio Spirits, Jumper series, Alex Adventure, Super Paper Mario, Rorshach, Chibi Robo Park Patrol, rRootage, Contact, Judith, De Blob, No More Heroes, Little King's Story, Frogatto, Patchwork Heroes, A Boy and His Blob, A Shadow's Tale, Spelunky, xopblack, Genetos, Yume Nikki, Randy Balma Municipal Abortionist, Hydorah, Peggle, Pau Moose in Space World, Bit Trip series, Shadow Complex, Love, Art Style series, Abbaye Des Morts, Garvity Bone, Valdis Story, Tumiki Fighters, Pixeljunk series, Flower, Eversion, Ray Hound, Storm Assault, Noby Noby Boy, Fantastic Blood Boy, Sam & Max, Plants vs Zombies, I Wanna Be The Guy, Crayon Physics Deluxe, New Super Mario Bros, Warning Forever, Shoot 1up, Jasper's Journeys, Canabalt, Space Giraffe, Samorost 2, Noitu Love 2, Iji, Yahtzee's adv games, Battleships Forever, Banana Nababa, Captain Forever, ROM CHECK FAIL, Ben There Dan That, Bear Go Home, Bonesaw, Ikki's games, Bloody Zombies, Cloudphobia, Rescue the Beagles, Dan Da Dan, et-fucking-cetera.

[linko9]

Rocket Slime

They need to make another one of these. Great games, especially the DS one. One of the most addicting game mechanics I've ever come across.

[neorichieb1971]

Abstract creativity in the $10m+ budget is a wasteland.

Thats the one... I didn't buy a PS3 to play games that could be done on the PS2. Although I do like the limbo type of game, cheap cheerful and moody.

Pixar make abstract movies and make a damn killing. I would love to play a 1080 Parodius at full screen with orchestral score on the PS3. How much would that cost? A red octopus and a flying pig can't cost that much to produce surely.

Pixar should set up a studio for some of their ideas. Get them to make some games. We know they render pretty much anything. If one company broke the big budget abstract ice then more would fall in..

[BulletMagnet]

They need to make another one of these. Great games, especially the DS one. One of the most addicting game mechanics I've ever come across.

I loved the concept and the visuals on the DS, but I found playing it a bit tiresome before long, honestly...like you, I'd definitely like a sequel with some expanded ideas.

I would love to play a 1080 Parodius at full screen with orchestral score on the PS3. How much would that cost? A red octopus and a flying pig can't cost that much to produce surely.

It doesn't really matter how much it costs if they're never going to make back the investment.

[Drum]

Abstract creativity in the $10m+ budget is a wasteland.

Thats the one... I didn't buy a PS3 to play games that could be done on the PS2. Although I do like the limbo type of game, cheap cheerful and moody.

That's just the harsh reality. You are going to have to be realistic and adjust (not lower) your expectations - stop being such a child about it, basically. You are essentially asking why Werner Herzog can't get $250 million to film his next movie. The world doesn't work like that, and nor should it. Werner Herzog wouldn't want $250 million to make a film. That would be like a thousand zombie Klaus Kinski's trying to eat him.
Games like The Last Guardian, Bayonetta, Nier etc. are going to get rarer and rarer - unless some revolution happens and things become more and more procedurally generated like Minecraft (which you should play, incidentally - my PC cost a good deal more than your precious PS3 and I see no irony in playing a Java app on it). That's a way a small, creative team could make spectacular-looking games that are less beholden to the bottom line (of course, the Minecraft creator is a multi-millionaire now so it's really the up-front risks that are the problem, ie. corporate money, though as I said a lot of the most novel and creative stuff on consoles comes from the enormous first parties). Love is another example. http://db.tigsource.com/games/love

Anyway, get busy:

http://www.indiegames.com/blog/

[Obiwanshinobi]

Everybody who buys a gaming device for games that are yet to be released is asking for a disappointment.
Want me to buy your new system just after its launch? Release some bloody good launch titles with it. Oh, you don't have any? Then don't rush the system's launch.

[Drum]

Abstract creativity in the $10m+ budget is a wasteland.

Thats the one... I didn't buy a PS3 to play games that could be done on the PS2. Although I do like the limbo type of game, cheap cheerful and moody.

Pixar make abstract movies and make a damn killing. I would love to play a 1080 Parodius at full screen with orchestral score on the PS3. How much would that cost? A red octopus and a flying pig can't cost that much to produce surely.

Pixar should set up a studio for some of their ideas. Get them to make some games. We know they render pretty much anything. If one company broke the big budget abstract ice then more would fall in..

The equivalent of Pixar movies is Super Mario Galaxy - which is vastly more creative than anything Pixar would ever dream of doing. Go play it.

Parodius would look like shit at that level of detail with the budget it would get - look at the new Bangaio for 360 and how fugly that is. Parodius would look even worse. Or look at the (dreadful-looking, uglier even than the MSX original) pedo-rific Otomedius. I would love a new Parodius on a handheld though, provided it has no lolis.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The reason why they don't make Parodius-pretty games anymore is that it would cost much more in high resolutions, but certainly wouldn't sell much better than it used to in the good old days.

[Skykid]

You don't need to, I'm sure I've played most of the ones you'd list anyway. But I don't see them appearing as regularly in the mainstream as they would have done ten years ago. Trust me, all I get is mainstream, and it's 90% disposable.

90% disposable is applicable to almost everything on the planet though - i'd say it's even higher, but yup - agreed a ton is forgetable and previous gens had more regular leftfield ideas. That said, XBL/XBIG and PSN are providing more and more avenues for different ideas.

Thanks dude, that was really all I was saying. I was a bit tired last night (it was very late) so apologies to all if I was rambling. I was enjoying the debate though.

I don't want to go on about the western coded thing too much, that's a bit of a tangent in a thread that's already had many. The examples I was thinking of were more Rise of the Robots and Clayfighter than classics I enjoyed such as Paperboy and Smash TV etc. What I was getting at, is that where Japan used to be gifted in 2D (and oh, so gifted with colour palettes), now its the West who rule in 3D, so it's a clear shift. But screw that topic anyway, it's done.

Go play Super Meat Boy, Limbo, Costume Quest, Super Mario Galaxy, Shantae: Risky's Revenge, Paper Moon, Space Invaders Extreme, Castlevania:Order of Ecclesia, Kirby's Epic Yarn, Super Princess Peach, La Mulana, And Yet it Moves, World of Goo, Dildo Tank, Cactus' games, Patapon, Prinny:Can I Really Be the Hero, Loco Roco, Wario Land:Shake, Tatsunoko vs Capcom, BlazBlu, Death Worm, Kirby's Canvas Curse, Dungeon Crawl, Dwarf Fortress, Wario Ware, Machinarium, Rocket Slime, Invisible Vision, Invalid Tangram, Contra 4, Eets, Explosion Man, Comic Jumper, EnviroBear 2000, Meteos, Lumines, Sin and Punishment 2, Muramasa:The Demon Blade, Stone Soup, Cave Story, A Game With a Kitty, N+, Lyle's Adventures in Cube Sector, Liquisity, PUNISHMENT, Crush, Knytt Stories, Braid, Minecraft, Ultimate Ghouls n Chosts, Gesundheit, Ys 7, Ys Oath in Felghana, ClaDun, What Have I Done to Deserve This My Lord?, Bangaio Spirits, Jumper series, Alex Adventure, Super Paper Mario, Rorshach, Chibi Robo Park Patrol, rRootage, Contact, Judith, De Blob, No More Heroes, Little King's Story, Frogatto, Patchwork Heroes, A Boy and His Blob, A Shadow's Tale, Spelunky, xopblack, Genetos, Yume Nikki, Randy Balma Municipal Abortionist, Hydorah, Peggle, Pau Moose in Space World, Bit Trip series, Shadow Complex, Love, Art Style series, Abbaye Des Morts, Garvity Bone, Valdis Story, Tumiki Fighters, Pixeljunk series, Flower, Eversion, Ray Hound, Storm Assault, Noby Noby Boy, Fantastic Blood Boy, Sam & Max, Plants vs Zombies, I Wanna Be The Guy, Crayon Physics Deluxe, New Super Mario Bros, Warning Forever, Shoot 1up, Jasper's Journeys, Canabalt, Space Giraffe, Samorost 2, Noitu Love 2, Iji, Yahtzee's adv games, Battleships Forever, Banana Nababa, Captain Forever, ROM CHECK FAIL, Ben There Dan That, Bear Go Home, Bonesaw, Ikki's games, Bloody Zombies, Cloudphobia, Rescue the Beagles, Dan Da Dan, et-fucking-cetera.

Love it, what a list!
I have a feeling it looks more impressive on paper though. I've played quite a few of those games, but not so much the indie/doujin stuff, which to be fair shouldn't really be part of an argument regarding commercial mainstream gaming - and they're making up a vast proportion of that list.
I can't go through them all one by one, but on the overview, Yahtzee, Battleships and Peggle aren't exactly an evolution of creative gaming more than they are well made iPhone puzzle games. Some of the stuff is a little last gen too, with Sam & Max being well old and Lumines coming out when the PS2 was still going strong.
Kirby is all meh these days, no interest there, but the Mario games are consistently excellent. Even Princess Peach was pretty good.
Loco Roco was great for a bit, but the novelty wears off when you realise it's a designed to be a DS trojan horse. Patapon was very neat though.
Ultimate G&G wasn't that well received by all, and a lot of people thought Ecclessia was pretty tired rather than a glorious evolution of the series (I for one, really enjoyed it though.)
Contra 4 absolutely rocked, even though C: Rebirth should have made that list as that was more notably awesome (and Castlevania Rebirth too.)
Super Paper Mario was a big step backward for the series - doesn't deserve mentioning. I wouldn't recommend it above any of the earlier entries in the series, which you can get at the Wii store. Even BlazBlue and Tatsunoko - brilliant as they are - are they alone flying the flag for five years worth of evolving 2D fighting games? Where's my hand drawn Street Fighter IV with to die for pixel art? (KOF XIII, do us justice! )

Anyway, I digress. It's a great list of games, and I applaud the effort. I couldn't have thought of that many. I'm not sure if it quashes the argument at all, but I do have respect for all you guys who are really enjoying the flavour of current gen stuff. I know Strider for instance plays through the games he buys, such as Bayonetta, Lords of Shadow and Ninja Gaiden 2 several times over on the hardest difficulties. That blows my mind. I play everything once, on defaults, don't care nothing for achievements or backtracking - I need games these days to be over more quickly so I can get back to playing other stuff.
But like I said, the fact that people dig the shape of the current market is good (and clearly, by the size of it, working). But, when I put on something like Twinbee Yahho! and it has me lost in its world in seconds, I still can see what Richie's getting at. Sorry!

EDIT:

The equivalent of Pixar movies is Super Mario Galaxy - which is vastly more creative than anything Pixar would ever dream of doing. Go play it.

Bit of an injustice to Pixar, the old 'vastly more creative', but yes, Drum's absolutely right. It's a tremendously wonderful game - better than anything on your PS3 Richie, fer real.

[lgb]

the further we go, the worst it will get. it has little to do with talent or experience.

[neorichieb1971]

Soldner X2 was viable so why not Parodius?

I don't have much to add to this thread except my wallet has money in it and I'm not buying games with it. 10 million other people may disagree and keep the serious boring "seen it before, bought the Tshirt" type games in the charts, but honestly I see that dying out. This new wave of controllers isn't going to save the industry just like 3D isn't going to revolutionize cinema or in fact home cinema.

If your the type of person that plays games and dismisses a different type of game because it doesn't sit under sports, warfare or sim racing, then you've doomed the rest of us getting a AAA abstract title. I want my Panzers, Jumping flashes, Raymans, Motortoons, Robocods. Perhaps charm isn't fashionable anymore, but a laughing walking fish shooting a machine gun with AAA graphics is gotta be worth a crack. Fighting a host of alien octopusses with gun turrets on each tentacle would be awesome, especially if they were transparent pink. Get rid of the serious, put some quirky music like the boss arrangement of diddy Kong racing lol.

I will leave you with fun gaming. Diddy kong racings boss tube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXU22pIKWz4 . That is how old now?

Required skill, was funny as shit and kept me playing for a month. I'd still love to race that octopus level its hilarious.

[Skykid]

I want my Panzers, Jumping flashes, Raymans, Motortoons, Robocods.

Wtf? Did I just hear that right? I'm arguing your corner and you want Rayman, Motortoons and Robocod?!!

Lol, we're on different wavelengths after all mate.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Yeah, that really is a bizarre selection of games. I'd quite happily never see another Rayman or James Pond game ever.

Soldner X2 was viable so why not Parodius?

Because Parodius requires vastly more detail than Soldner X2. Parodius is all about the characters and the insane, tiny details - well, that and awesome gameplay, but let's take that as read - whereas Soldner X2, as much as it was an improvement over the first game, lacks both personality and detail.

If it was to retain the kind of charm that the old games possessed, a new Parodius would absolutely *have* to be sprite-based, if the evidence of Otomedius is anything to go by. That's simply never going to happen.

Don't you be putting all Shin MegaTen spin-offs in one bag. As much as I find it unfortunate that Persona 3 was the ice-breaking one in the west, I wouldn't say DDS1&2 were "not as good" as Nocturne/Lucifer's Call. What they lack in the Pokémon and overworld departments, they make up for in the devouring mechanics, and the dungeons in DDS1&2 are of the finest Shin MegaTen quality. In my book both Digital Devil Sagas are every bit as edgy and labyrinthine a ride as Nocturne.

I'm certainly not saying that they're bad games, but SMT3 is, as far as I'm concerned, the complete package. DDS sails a little too close to traditional JRPGing in comparison.

[neorichieb1971]

I want my Panzers, Jumping flashes, Raymans, Motortoons, Robocods.

Wtf? Did I just hear that right? I'm arguing your corner and you want Rayman, Motortoons and Robocod?!!

Lol, we're on different wavelengths after all mate.

Not totally, I like quite a few of the games you mentioned, I just added more that I like as well.

[Skykid]

Just for the record then, I hated everything about Rayman, and still do. Horrible game.

If anyone wonders what I'm talking about with regards to flourishing creative fantasy games, my head (and heart) are squarely in the 16-bit era.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

This podcast by 19XX talks about the the same subject as in this thread. Its from last year but I think its quite insightfull making some good points including the fact that western and Eastern gamers want different things in their games (ie WG want an movie like expeirence and arnt bothered so much about how good the game playplay is. Where EG want good gameplay and simple fun in the gameplay)

His best point is that maybe these Japanese devs are shooting themselves in the foot by been too focused on the western market that they are forgetting their core market at home which is been alienated.

It seems to be a common thing in the videogame industry where they get so hung up on attracting new gamers that they totally ignore their loyal fan base who have supported them for years. Infact sometimes i feel that Cave is doing this aswell (the slowdown issue in NA DS, all the loli and that Advert on you tube which made the game look more like a visual novel then a shmup) Plus i think that many other ppl on this forum feel / fear the same if you look at the big backlashes to things Cave has done.( ie iphone haters)

heres the podcast site, you want podcast issue 03 and FF to 40mins to get straight to the topic on hand http://www.podcast198x.com/

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm certainly not saying that they're bad games, but SMT3 is, as far as I'm concerned, the complete package. DDS sails a little too close to traditional JRPGing in comparison.

That's weird, because Nocturne has got more elements of a traditional jRPG (such as towns and explorable overworld map full of... stuff). DDS has got more cutscenes and that's about it.

Just for the record then, I hated everything about Rayman, and still do. Horrible game.

Did you play Rayman 2: The Great Escape? Dreamcast or PC version to be precise. Other versions are fairly redundant, including Rayman Revolution. The Great Escape is totally up there with BG&E and PoP:TSoT in my book. It has some crap bits, but that's 1999 for ya, when 3D platformers were still but a novelty.

[Skykid]

Plus i think that many other ppl on this forum feel / fear the same if you look at the big backlashes to things Cave has done.( ie iphone haters)

Yeah, but the iphone haters are just being weirdly stupid.

Interesting post though. I like the way you pinpointed the basic differences. As in cinematic first, gameplay second, and all the old schoolers wanting it the other way around.
My theory is as you suggested, that if JP devs focussed on building up their core market, they'd have a better chance of surviving than making poor quality imitation-ware.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

And like the podcast notes, that many western oldschool gamers are raised on Jap games so we are more like Japanese gamers rather then many new western gamers who dont have the same Japanese upbringing.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I haven't read this whole thread carefully, but the major untold thing seems to be that people who hope to live through their most exciting era of gaming again (be it PSX or SNES times or whatever) are not going to be satisfied no matter what. No other generation will do things for you the way that most treasured one did. Only one love can be the first one.
When the Japanese gaming population prefers handhelds rather than home consoles, you can't expect the Japanese industry to put as much effort in the "big" console games development anymore. It's the same with arcades. People who used to make those grand arcade classics are still around and certainly didn't lose all the skills, but the big money is somewhere else now.
Is any of the current gen home consoles MASSIVELY popular in Japan nowadays? I mean NES popular, PS2 popular etc. It's not just about numbers of consoles sold, or money spent on games per month. Rather it's about time sunk into gaming on a daily basis. If you are busy gaming on your handheld, your stationary device can't possibly be getting quite as much of your time.

[neorichieb1971]

Hmm, I semi agree. But what about those kinds of people that played ps2/GC/Xbox games and thought the next gen era would bring more of the same but much better? Then when they got their newer console they got all this online shoving, all this action action action shoving, all this sim sim sim shoving. Its almost like the games we loved were never supposed to be made, they were only made because of a limitation of their true love, not ours.

[dcharlie]

Hmm, I semi agree. But what about those kinds of people that played ps2/GC/Xbox games and thought the next gen era would bring more of the same but much better? Then when they got their newer console they got all this online shoving, all this action action action shoving, all this sim sim sim shoving. Its almost like the games we loved were never supposed to be made, they were only made because of a limitation of their true love, not ours.

almost every single genre is served on next gen to some degree - including shmups. Who would have possibly thought that in this sea of doom we'd have all the ports we got?

Again - you're only seeing what you want to see. Just step back and chill out, there's a ton of stuff out there that, again, seems to fit what you are looking for (with the possible exception of Robocod (though it is on the DS))

I'll go one further - enjoying this gen as much as any other gen to date. PS3 for exclusives, X360 for every day gaming and online (coop gaming online is the antidote) , Wii for N Exclusives/party/fun

Really not sure what Move will add (at least another next gen light gun solution - will be getting it for Time Crisis though everythign else looks bobbins) , and Kinectic or Kitentic or whatever it is called will bring... um... well... err... there has to be something ?! (Kinetic looks like a massive disaster)

[Drum]

You don't need to, I'm sure I've played most of the ones you'd list anyway. But I don't see them appearing as regularly in the mainstream as they would have done ten years ago. Trust me, all I get is mainstream, and it's 90% disposable.

90% disposable is applicable to almost everything on the planet though - i'd say it's even higher, but yup - agreed a ton is forgetable and previous gens had more regular leftfield ideas. That said, XBL/XBIG and PSN are providing more and more avenues for different ideas.

Thanks dude, that was really all I was saying. I was a bit tired last night (it was very late) so apologies to all if I was rambling. I was enjoying the debate though.

I don't want to go on about the western coded thing too much, that's a bit of a tangent in a thread that's already had many. The examples I was thinking of were more Rise of the Robots and Clayfighter than classics I enjoyed such as Paperboy and Smash TV etc. What I was getting at, is that where Japan used to be gifted in 2D (and oh, so gifted with colour palettes), now its the West who rule in 3D, so it's a clear shift. But screw that topic anyway, it's done.

Go play Super Meat Boy, Limbo, Costume Quest, Super Mario Galaxy, Shantae: Risky's Revenge, Paper Moon, Space Invaders Extreme, Castlevania:Order of Ecclesia, Kirby's Epic Yarn, Super Princess Peach, La Mulana, And Yet it Moves, World of Goo, Dildo Tank, Cactus' games, Patapon, Prinny:Can I Really Be the Hero, Loco Roco, Wario Land:Shake, Tatsunoko vs Capcom, BlazBlu, Death Worm, Kirby's Canvas Curse, Dungeon Crawl, Dwarf Fortress, Wario Ware, Machinarium, Rocket Slime, Invisible Vision, Invalid Tangram, Contra 4, Eets, Explosion Man, Comic Jumper, EnviroBear 2000, Meteos, Lumines, Sin and Punishment 2, Muramasa:The Demon Blade, Stone Soup, Cave Story, A Game With a Kitty, N+, Lyle's Adventures in Cube Sector, Liquisity, PUNISHMENT, Crush, Knytt Stories, Braid, Minecraft, Ultimate Ghouls n Chosts, Gesundheit, Ys 7, Ys Oath in Felghana, ClaDun, What Have I Done to Deserve This My Lord?, Bangaio Spirits, Jumper series, Alex Adventure, Super Paper Mario, Rorshach, Chibi Robo Park Patrol, rRootage, Contact, Judith, De Blob, No More Heroes, Little King's Story, Frogatto, Patchwork Heroes, A Boy and His Blob, A Shadow's Tale, Spelunky, xopblack, Genetos, Yume Nikki, Randy Balma Municipal Abortionist, Hydorah, Peggle, Pau Moose in Space World, Bit Trip series, Shadow Complex, Love, Art Style series, Abbaye Des Morts, Garvity Bone, Valdis Story, Tumiki Fighters, Pixeljunk series, Flower, Eversion, Ray Hound, Storm Assault, Noby Noby Boy, Fantastic Blood Boy, Sam & Max, Plants vs Zombies, I Wanna Be The Guy, Crayon Physics Deluxe, New Super Mario Bros, Warning Forever, Shoot 1up, Jasper's Journeys, Canabalt, Space Giraffe, Samorost 2, Noitu Love 2, Iji, Yahtzee's adv games, Battleships Forever, Banana Nababa, Captain Forever, ROM CHECK FAIL, Ben There Dan That, Bear Go Home, Bonesaw, Ikki's games, Bloody Zombies, Cloudphobia, Rescue the Beagles, Dan Da Dan, et-fucking-cetera.

Love it, what a list!
I have a feeling it looks more impressive on paper though. I've played quite a few of those games, but not so much the indie/doujin stuff, which to be fair shouldn't really be part of an argument regarding commercial mainstream gaming - and they're making up a vast proportion of that list.
I can't go through them all one by one, but on the overview, Yahtzee, Battleships and Peggle aren't exactly an evolution of creative gaming more than they are well made iPhone puzzle games. Some of the stuff is a little last gen too, with Sam & Max being well old and Lumines coming out when the PS2 was still going strong.
Kirby is all meh these days, no interest there, but the Mario games are consistently excellent. Even Princess Peach was pretty good.
Loco Roco was great for a bit, but the novelty wears off when you realise it's a designed to be a DS trojan horse. Patapon was very neat though.
Ultimate G&G wasn't that well received by all, and a lot of people thought Ecclessia was pretty tired rather than a glorious evolution of the series (I for one, really enjoyed it though.)
Contra 4 absolutely rocked, even though C: Rebirth should have made that list as that was more notably awesome (and Castlevania Rebirth too.)
Super Paper Mario was a big step backward for the series - doesn't deserve mentioning. I wouldn't recommend it above any of the earlier entries in the series, which you can get at the Wii store. Even BlazBlue and Tatsunoko - brilliant as they are - are they alone flying the flag for five years worth of evolving 2D fighting games? Where's my hand drawn Street Fighter IV with to die for pixel art? (KOF XIII, do us justice! )

Anyway, I digress. It's a great list of games, and I applaud the effort. I couldn't have thought of that many. I'm not sure if it quashes the argument at all, but I do have respect for all you guys who are really enjoying the flavour of current gen stuff. I know Strider for instance plays through the games he buys, such as Bayonetta, Lords of Shadow and Ninja Gaiden 2 several times over on the hardest difficulties. That blows my mind. I play everything once, on defaults, don't care nothing for achievements or backtracking - I need games these days to be over more quickly so I can get back to playing other stuff.
But like I said, the fact that people dig the shape of the current market is good (and clearly, by the size of it, working). But, when I put on something like Twinbee Yahho! and it has me lost in its world in seconds, I still can see what Richie's getting at. Sorry!

EDIT:

The equivalent of Pixar movies is Super Mario Galaxy - which is vastly more creative than anything Pixar would ever dream of doing. Go play it.

Bit of an injustice to Pixar, the old 'vastly more creative', but yes, Drum's absolutely right. It's a tremendously wonderful game - better than anything on your PS3 Richie, fer real.

The only quality a game needed to make the list was that a reasonable person who was looking for something novel could enjoy it. It's utterly futile to get into issues of quality - or at least it's a seperate issue. I personally can't stand Loco Roco, for instance - it puts me to sleep. But look at where neorichie is setting the bar - Rayman, Robocod, Banjo Racing, Tekken forest stage music etc. It isn't hard at all to satisfy his modest demands - but the issue, of course, is that neorichie is not a reasonable person. Hell, I said up-front that a lot of the games are too reverent of old games and had anemic gameplay. But if I made a list of similar games from the last couple of gens, think of all the marginal titles that would make it up - Clockwork Knight, Skullmonkeys, Pulirula, Psychonauts, Astal, Odama, Seaman, Space Channel 5, Rez, Gitaroo Man etc. I know some of those are beloved titles, but that doesn't mean they don't suck ass. But I understand how somebody could like them!

Also, it's just true that SMG is vastly more creative than anything Pixar could dream up. Imagination is not really their strong point - pathos, attention to detail, humour is what they do.

[neorichieb1971]

Hmm, I semi agree. But what about those kinds of people that played ps2/GC/Xbox games and thought the next gen era would bring more of the same but much better? Then when they got their newer console they got all this online shoving, all this action action action shoving, all this sim sim sim shoving. Its almost like the games we loved were never supposed to be made, they were only made because of a limitation of their true love, not ours.

almost every single genre is served on next gen to some degree - including shmups. Who would have possibly thought that in this sea of doom we'd have all the ports we got?

Again - you're only seeing what you want to see. Just step back and chill out, there's a ton of stuff out there that, again, seems to fit what you are looking for (with the possible exception of Robocod (though it is on the DS))

I'll go one further - enjoying this gen as much as any other gen to date. PS3 for exclusives, X360 for every day gaming and online (coop gaming online is the antidote) , Wii for N Exclusives/party/fun

Really not sure what Move will add (at least another next gen light gun solution - will be getting it for Time Crisis though everythign else looks bobbins) , and Kinectic or Kitentic or whatever it is called will bring... um... well... err... there has to be something ?! (Kinetic looks like a massive disaster)

Dcharlie, I think the issue for me is that in the era of the DC/PS2/GC (not Xbox never owned it) the games found me. I never had expectations then because everything was a wOw moment, or thereabouts. I thought I would hate burnout but I loved it, I thought Ridge Racer 5 would be worse than 4, but it was better than all of them. Tekken Tag was even a good game, although 4 really hit the lowest point of the series. So anyway, not many disappointments in the first 2 or 3 years. This gen not really a sausage so far. Something words of merit but not a game I would say couldn't be bettered. I need to buy more systems. Still wanting a HDMI wii.. Nintendo should really get on that.

I decided to play Prince of Persia on PS3 last night. Its alright. A bit of a flatline game. It controls and looks better than CVLOS which is really surprising (only played the demo of the latter). But unfortunately it just doesn't deliver highs and lows, it just delivers a flatline experience. Its a professional product, its clean, it works. But it could have been done better.

I don't buy shmups on consoles Dcharlie, simply put I want the cab experience. So although I can appreciate where people are coming from when talking of the 360 shmups scene, I have no need to join it. I'm happy for those that have though

After Xmas I might pick up a 360 if its available in a sale. I won't want to spend much more than £100 though.

[MadScientist]

all this sim sim sim shoving.

Where are you getting all these 'sims' out of?

[dcharlie]

I decided to play Prince of Persia on PS3 last night

why not try one of the many games recommended to you instead ?

[neorichieb1971]

Anything that simulates something real. Gt5, Call of Duty, Medal of Honor I put under sims because everything in the game is as close to reality as possible. Which is what I don't really want to see that much of.

[neorichieb1971]

I decided to play Prince of Persia on PS3 last night

why not try one of the many games recommended to you instead ?

Because I already owned POP. I don't own any of the games you mentioned. Besides I only have one console. Most of the games recommended are not on PS3. Recommend me a game you think I will like and I will buy it for a laugh.

[dcharlie]

i'm curious - why did you buy PoP? It's the very definition of everything you've said you dislike this gen.

Anyways :
PS3
----
1. Orange Box - mainly for Portal, but hey look at that - you get Half Life 2 as well, which is also brilliant (not sure it classes as realistic or not ? it looks mildly realish due to the environments but... huge alien tripods?) . and ep 1 (let down). and ep 2 (very good, great ending struggle). and Team Fortress 2 (filthy online gaming)
2. Braid (download) - 2d puzzler with mild platform and time control elements. Lots of brain teasing. Gets a lot of hate, genuinely good idea imo.
3. Wipeout HD / Fury (download/retail in UK i think too) - absolutely incredible. Back to form.
4. 3D Dot Game Heroes - has it's issues , but has a great asthetic and harks back to zelda style games whilst giving a HD look. Some good humour in there too.
5. Flower (download) - i will make it clear i HATED flower. But as it's something pretty left field it might appeal.
6. The Last Guy (download) - again, didn't blow me away, but it's got quite the following. Round up the people from a map and avoid the zombies.
7. Pixel Junk Eden (download) - abstract, beautiful, different.

There's more - but that's at least a start.

[MadScientist]

Trash Panic is worth a look as well. It's the Demon's Souls of quirky puzzle games. Or something.