Why Shmups?

R9 · Post by R9 » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:21 pm

Just new to the board, and was trying to garner opinion on what the genereal attraction to shmups is. Given that many other genres of game take in similar aspects (but mabye in different graphical forms). Wheeee-wonder if i'll get any replies. Also, sorry if thats been done before-long time listener, first time etc.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:32 pm

Welcome!

Why not?

Before everyone will post every possible reply, here's mine: because they have always have been about gameplay.Is it enough?

Just an appetizer, as your question isn't immensely original...but a good start nonetheless

R9 · Post by R9 » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:46 pm

You can get great gameplay in all sorts of games, and usually play them for longer than I can with most shmups. Mabye its just down to the intensity and concentration required, and also just a very simple concept thats universal in appeal (jeez, sounding deep here). Also, for me nostalgia plays a part in some games (though just for some) - its just nice to see a board dedicated to games I love and thought people had forgotten about.

GIANT SQUID · Post by **GIANT SQUID** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:43 pm

all systems go........
there is a lot of reasons to like shooters, i will explain mine.
shooters (i know you guys like to call them shmups, but i refuse to name something so dear to my heart something so stupid.) are, at their heart, the last existing pilar of oldschool gamedesign and minimalist inginuity. shooters both comprimise the link to oldschool style gameplay and balanced, inovative engine design, with out the cop out of open ended gameplay. shooters focus on why we started playing video games or any type of game in the first place. entertainment/fun, skill building, and competition. nothing that is missing one or more ingredients form this formula lasts. only old school arcade games, some racing games, fighting games, and our beloved shooters maintain these values. in 10 years, no one will play GTA san andreas. no one will play god of war. no one will play world of warcraft. but they will still play r-type. they will still play strikers and donpachi and gunbird. just like we still play them now, and some of us, i hope, still play super streetfighter 2 turbo. others will play them later. cause it's a dying breed. but the desire to get good at soemthing, to be competitive, that does not go away. no one cares how good you are at action games and rpgs. but god dammit if you can 1cc life force. that is something completly different. if you can hold your own in high level guilty gear, that is different. you have built a skill, advanced your ability. not tested your persistance or wasted some time. the people who can understand this and accept, jsut go for what makes them feel good. dodging insane amounts of bullets and striking hard and fast at the heart of the evil bydo empire. shooters own our asses cause they are one of the few game genres left where you can walk away better than you were before. and that makes you come back.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:47 pm

Because you shoot things that I'd normally be doing in real life if it weren't for this genre.

Grand Theft Auto emulates real life, kekeke

Ramus · Post by **Ramus** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:19 pm

Challenge and you look like a bad ass when you can 1cc something. It takes dedication and thus is more satisfying when you accomplish your goal, which 1cc is a usual goal. In addition, they are fun and the game mechanics are easy to get down but hard to master; which makes replay value soar.

R9 · Post by R9 » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:23 pm

Phew, GIANT SQUID, appreciate the feeling behind what you wrote and agree with you entirely. Whereas some of "todays" games will remain a standpoint in some gamers memories, most will dwindle due to some advancement or other (ie. graphics) and will seldom if ever be revisited. Its just good to be able to play knowing EXACTLY what you have to do, have a clear path layed out, and only have to concentrate on the dodging of bullets (or scenery). Its just pure videogame; not having to worry about whether your 6800ultra can handle it or when the next GTA will come out. Just games for people who actually enjoy playing real games rather than hyped up dross.

the2bears · Post by **the2bears** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:34 pm

Randorama wrote:...

Why not?

...

Hah! Beat me to the classic answer

For me it's all about growing up in the era of 2D gameplay and never quite getting into the newer genres. Just something about shooting, then shooting some more.

Bill

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:49 pm

Shmups are like fine wines. They're basically all the same (i.e. grape juice) but have very subtle differences and nuances that make deeper study very interesting and engaging. You have your horizontal reds, usually strong and mature, and your vertical whites, a bit more fruity and acidic and usually best enjoyed while younger. Then there's the somewhat more uncommen and underappreciated isometric rosés.
Other factors to consider are the region, the producer and the vintage, and in what context to enjoy them in. Perhaps a more formal arcade setting, or simply in the comfort of your own home? The possibilies are limitless and I believe for most hardcore shmuppers the consumtion is only half the fun. It's as much about acquiring the shooters, theorizing about them and criticizing them, and just like wine is unique in the world of beverages, no other genre offers this kind of breadth in the world of videogames. Cheers!

R9 · Post by R9 » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:53 pm

Well Seven Force, i'll drink to that!

Post by **system11** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:06 am

I play them to unplug, stop thinking, and try to fight a bitter struggle against things that go BOOM in a most satisfying manner through a hail of bullets. When I started playing games, the shmup was the king of all genres (Galaxian was impressive), only challenged by racing games, back in the days of Pole Position, Turbo, Sprint 2, and Buggy Challenge.

I don't personally subscribe to the shmup dojo method.

Alske · Post by **Alske** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:00 am

I enjoy shooters for the same reason I enjoy DDR, 2D fighters, running, mountain biking, computational geometry, and foreign languages: I like to get better at things that actually take effort.

I feel no accomplishment riding my bike to work, but I feel quite a bit after 12 mile trek through the desert. I feel as though I've done something hard and difficult.

Why walk a mile when you can run four?

Shooters are one of the last few single-player genres that are created with the goal of allowing the person who plays them to get better. I like that.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:38 am

you press a direction, your ship goes in that direction, you dont have to worry about the direction you're aiming and your success or failure is just related to your abillity to position yourself in a space, you have absolute control.

THAT is gameplay.

that, and playing them well is as badass as it can get.

MSZ · Post by **MSZ** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:23 am

Why shmups? because I don't feel like playing a game in other genres nowdays.

black mariah · Post by **black mariah** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:43 am

GIANT SQUID wrote:
in 10 years, no one will play GTA san andreas. no one will play god of war. no one will play world of warcraft. but they will still play r-type.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:45 am

Tough to say...I always liked playing 'em from time to time when I was younger, though nowadays I play them much more consistently. I guess it's at least partially because you can just sit down with 'em most anytime you like and play for a bit, as opposed to other types of games that you need to devote a lot of time to in one sitting to get anyplace. I can just pull a particular shmup out whenever I feel like it, and if I feel like something different the next time I can play that instead, and then go right back to the first the next time without "losing" anything. Methinks I've stopped making sense now, so I'll just say "welcome."

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:54 am

Good to have another Scotsman here R9!

Don't really have anything to add though that hasn't been said above...

al138 · Post by **al138** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:24 am

I like them for two reasons:

1. They are a throwback to my youth. That's right, those of us who hit their stride in the late 80s and early 90s can remember well the evolution of shooters at both the arcade and at home, especially on the TG-16/Duo.

2. I'm older now, and my focus in on my career. Shooter titles give me a great deal of excitement for 15-30 minutes at a time when my schedule allows. When time is up, I can drop them without missing a step. They provide the perfect gameplay experience for those who like games, but have not the time (or perhaps the desire) to funnel 60+ hours on a single title like GTA that won't hold up ten years from now! I can play Gates of Thunder with the same excitement I felt 13 years ago. Carl Johnson hasn't graced my television screen for months...

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:39 am

Because there's nothing more fun than seeing stuff BLOWING UP REEEEEEEAAAAAAL GOOD!

Seven Force, that's a beautiful definition. Awesome.

black mariah · Post by **black mariah** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:58 am

For the record I play shmups because they're the only games that I can have a serious amount of fun with in the course of my short-ass attention span. I don't play very many games for very long (Gran Tourismo 2 being the last one I played a LOT) and shmups are great to just pick up and go with.

Which isn't to say I don't put effort into shmups. I just spread a week's worth of effort for most people here over about three months time.

TGK · Post by **TGK** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:15 am

I always one game of shmup (random pick) before I work each morning. It's my concentration exercise. There's no other genre that has this quality, to make you feel a bit better and more ready for real life after you play.

With the possible exception of light-gun games, which I also play before work when I know an arcade near the workplace with some.

Seven Force brought up a funny yet quite observant point. I also found light-gun games to be the same. It is like beer, in the way that it's a younger, less prestige genre. All light gun games are also the same, fermented yeast & hop in essense, but all subtly different. And when you know all the differences you can talk about them like a connoisseur

Andi · Post by **Andi** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:02 pm

GIANT SQUID wrote:
in 10 years, no one will play GTA san andreas. no one will play god of war. no one will play world of warcraft. but they will still play r-type.

I seriously doubt this. I'm pretty sure that today's games will still be known and played in 10 years.

Or, they won't, but neither will R-Type.

Sonic R · Post by **Sonic R** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:20 pm

Like alot of others, I got into gaming in the NES-16 bit era. Shooters were king (well platformers too). I just found it fun and fulfilling. You know getting past that one part that kept killing you. Finding new ways to rack up points. Trying different types of power ups to find out what works best for you. Getting a better score than the last play. etc...

These days shooters offer me gameplay for a busy life style. The thing is I can still go back and play classic Zanac or Gradius just the same as playing ESPGaluda or Gradius V. Yeah shooters have changed over the years but still retain the basic general concept that they started with.

Shooters 4 life...and I will still be playing TG-16 R-Type til the day I die!

D · Post by D » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:24 pm

100% working gameplay 100% off the time. Huge explosions, huge graphics.

Simple gameplay and simple game set up in general means that in this genre games can be made very good/balanced.

Quite the opposite of a very new unique genre with new possibilities, complex gameplay mechanisms.

Frustration factor is low because it is so simple

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:52 pm

The vagrant wrote:you press a direction, your ship goes in that direction, you dont have to worry about the direction you're aiming and your success or failure is just related to your abillity to position yourself in a space, you have absolute control.

THAT is gameplay.

that, and playing them well is as badass as it can get.

I think that's relative though. I personally enjoy shmups for the challenge, the quick excersize (as mentioned, 15-30 minutes here and there can be quite satisfying), and the simplicity (though that's often deceiving).

However, that's not to say that "the direction you're aiming" can't be a fun way to play. I was hooked to the Syphon Filter series (still am) and I can tell you it's quite satisfying when you realize that you can run around like a madman to avoid getting shot at and still pop off almost 100% head shots to take out your foes.

DeBurgo · Post by **DeBurgo** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:15 pm

Hopefully this makes sense: The thing I like about shooters is how it's really simple to gauge how difficult the game looks just by glancing at it. In many other genres, there's a lot of "off-screen" difficulty where what the player is doing doesn't necissarily seem that difficult. Shooters, on the other hand, are usually totally impressive. Sometimes I find myself getting anxious and excited simply just watching replays, and I think that's a feeling that anyone who's played a 2d shooter for a few minutes can experience.

This is in contrast to, say, fighting games, where you've all sorts of button combos and techniques to contend with, most of which won't make much sense to a person that doesn't have a semi-intimate knowledge of the game. There's definately a lot more of "Hey, how'd he do that?" moments in fighters.

That's not to say that ranking systems and such can't tear up a new player that doesn't know what he's doing, but that's not necissarily what I'm talking about...

The only other genre that I think comes close to shooters in terms of general transparency of difficulty is the rythm/dance genre, and that doesn't have the cool setting of blowing stuff up.

TGK · Post by **TGK** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:39 pm

almost everyone will disagree with me on this, but I believe that shmups with rank are still supposed to be played without suicide tactics, and finished with max rank.

I got to stage 6 boss on Garrega with max rank once, so I believe that it is possible to actually 1cc it if I take notes of the patterns & enemy placements & where I die, and methodically figure out strategy for those parts, instead of playing purely by memory (which is not reliable).

So what I mean by this post is that "rank" may tear new players up, but I believe (maybe in vain) that rank should ultimately be ignored.

Post by **Ghegs** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:19 pm

TGK wrote:almost everyone will disagree with me on this, but I believe that shmups with rank are still supposed to be played without suicide tactics, and finished with max rank.

I got to stage 6 boss on Garrega with max rank once, so I believe that it is possible to actually 1cc it if I take notes of the patterns & enemy placements & where I die, and methodically figure out strategy for those parts, instead of playing purely by memory (which is not reliable).

Erm, it HAS been 1CCed. By a great number of people, some of which are right here on these forums. It's one-lifing the game that's supposedly impossible.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:26 pm

I think he means 1CC-ing the thing without bothering to control the rank...not sure if that's ever been recorded or whatnot.

In any event, how the heck did this topic get in here? Have the mods call a plumber, I think the "controversial shmups" topic has sprung a leak.

TGK · Post by **TGK** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:16 pm

ah, I just mentioned rank because there was a mention right above that rank maybe a factor that makes shmup gameplay too complicated for the "simple and elegant" ideal that defines the genre.

so what I meant was that rank I think is just a way to help expert players to not become bored when they can keep one life for most of the game. It may be flawed in implementation, but I don't think the purpose of it was to force you to suicide.

shmups.system11.org

Why Shmups?

Why Shmups?

Ok, but.....