lcd monitor/tv for tate?

[vercimber]

Hey guys,

This topic has likely been discussed, but a forum search turned up no hits. I want to hook up my Japanese Xbox 360 to an LCD that is easy to align vertically, through a dynamic swivel that allows it 90 degree rotation. An HDMI input would also be essential. Mushihimesama Futari 1.5, Shooting Love 200X, and ESPGaluda 2--and inevitably DS 2, DDPD, and Ketsui (let's pray) -- have convinced me that I need this.

I have a CRT for tate, but it's in another room and won't fit in my main game room (where my central television is a 32" Toshiba REGZA.) I know I need to go smaller so tate-ing isn't so unwieldy.

I want to know if you guys know of a good monitor/tv -- up to 26" -- that will fit the bill.

Thanks in advance.

[Fudoh]

this has been discussed quite a few times before. There are quite a few TN displays out there with real low input lag, but they're crappy when rotated because the right side will be heavily discolored compared to the left side of the picture. For stable picture during rotation you need a PVA/MVA/S-IPS panels and most of them have serious input lag problems (up to 3 frames). So only a handful displays remain with low input lag AND stable colors in pivot mode. The LG W2600HP is likely the best shoot'em up display out there, but it's far from cheap.

[jandrogo]

The LG W2600HP is likely the best shoot'em up display out there, but it's far from cheap.

And talking about smaller screens which monitor/TV would you take from 22'' or 24''?

[Fudoh]

none, there is no (near) lag-free non-TN display in this range, sorry. If you don't mind the poor viewing angles (especially when tated) there are lots of great TN displays which are 22-24" and dirt cheap and have very low latency (lag).

[DC906270]

i have a Sony-KDL32W5500, its perfect for tating as long as you have a decent upscaler for older gen consoles.

[Gwyrgyn Blood]

none, there is no (near) lag-free non-TN display in this range, sorry. If you don't mind the poor viewing angles (especially when tated) there are lots of great TN displays which are 22-24" and dirt cheap and have very low latency (lag).

That's not true at all. There are a bunch of MVA/IPS panels out there that are nearly lag free. Most of them are just very expensive.

Check out the Dell 2209WA: http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/prod ... lid=628335

Cheap 22" IPS panel. Doesn't do 1080p because it's 22", but 360 and PS3 will both work on it just fine. Has around 1F of input lag average.

For a whole bunch more, check out this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=39226

[MoDaisuke]

I've been doing research into this subject as i want to build my own little arcade cabinet setup to use with my PS2 + HD Box Pro, Dreamcast + VGA, and perhaps a MAME PC as well. I'm probably looking a little larger in the 28"-37" range even if i had to deal with some slight input lag. So far after bouncing between here, NG, SRK, and a few other websites here's a list of good potential monitors:

Asus VH236 23" - the Evo Monitor, seems pretty good overall supposedly "lagless", great price nice 20+ inch screen.

Hanns·G HG-281DPB 28" - This supposedly another good monitor with low lag. Little bit bigger screen than the Asus. Seen a user on NG with a nice TATE setup using this monitor.

LG 32LH20 32" - this is one of the two good 32" + LCD TV's with low input lag about 2 frames. the other being a samsung model which i can't recall atm. supposedly is an S-IPS so it can be rotated and maintain good picture quality

So far these 3 are pretty good options. Obviously getting something like a NEC XM29 would be best but they are not so easy to find as i haven't had much luck so far. Prices seem pretty good on all these monitor and i'm gonna keep looking into it to see if there's anything else that would make a good TATE screen.

[neojma]

Asus VH236 23" - the Evo Monitor, seems pretty good overall supposedly "lagless", great price nice 20+ inch screen.

I just bought one of these a couple weeks ago, and I LOVE it. I'd recommend it wholeheartedly. The picture is excellent, I've noticed zero lag at all, no discoloration.

Not only that, but it's a beautiful monitor. The bezel is excellent and very thin, it's just nice and symmetrical with straight lines and not much plastic. It's sleek, the buttons are set into the bezel very nicely. It looks good horizontal AND vertical, a big consideration for me with some of these monitors and their awful too-much-plastic aesthetic and lack of symmetry. It even has built in speakers - not audiophile quality sound, but they're not bad. I'm using the built in speakers at the moment, it's nice to have only one HDMI cable going from 360-monitor carrying audio and video.

The price is great too, you can get it for under $200. I bought mine at Fry's, but if you don't live near a Fry's I think the price at Newegg + shipping will come out to about the same.

It doesn't rotate on its own, but it's fantastic paired with the Ergotron widescreen LCD stand that I bought: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... -_-Product . Swivels very easily for simple TATEing.

I use the new monitor for my Japanese 360, still have it on my shooter desk next to my low-res monitor (a Sony RGB video production monitor, don't know the model # off the top of my head but it's got a wonderful picture and is perfectly square, so great for TATE).

I'll put up some pictures soon.

[Ed Oscuro]

Everybody can test input lag for themselves, hooray:
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/response_time.php
Alternatively: http://tft.vanity.dk/inputlag.html

You'll want a CRT monitor to test it out, or at least a known good LCD monitor to compare with.

[Fudoh]

For measuring the input lag with a digicam and the CRT comparsion method, I'd recommend a standalone stop-watch application, not a flash based browser based. You can basically compare the monitor in question to whatever you want as long as you know the input lag of the comparison model.

[Nemo]

I've been doing research into this subject as i want to build my own little arcade cabinet setup to use with my PS2 + HD Box Pro, Dreamcast + VGA, and perhaps a MAME PC as well. I'm probably looking a little larger in the 28"-37" range even if i had to deal with some slight input lag. So far after bouncing between here, NG, SRK, and a few other websites here's a list of good potential monitors:

Asus VH236 23" - the Evo Monitor, seems pretty good overall supposedly "lagless", great price nice 20+ inch screen.

Hanns·G HG-281DPB 28" - This supposedly another good monitor with low lag. Little bit bigger screen than the Asus. Seen a user on NG with a nice TATE setup using this monitor.

LG 32LH20 32" - this is one of the two good 32" + LCD TV's with low input lag about 2 frames. the other being a samsung model which i can't recall atm. supposedly is an S-IPS so it can be rotated and maintain good picture quality

So far these 3 are pretty good options. Obviously getting something like a NEC XM29 would be best but they are not so easy to find as i haven't had much luck so far. Prices seem pretty good on all these monitor and i'm gonna keep looking into it to see if there's anything else that would make a good TATE screen.

Have anymore recommendations since this post? The EVO seems like the best option though I'd like something more in the 30" range but not as expensive as the LG TV.

[Fudoh]

With 30" you're either among very expensive high-end monitors or quite cheap entry level LCDs. One of the most recommended gaming 32" LCDs over the past months was the Panasonic LX-L32S10. Nice picture and excellent (bar none) input lag.

[SGGG2]

Have anymore recommendations since this post? The EVO seems like the best option though I'd like something more in the 30" range but not as expensive as the LG TV.

I have the EVO monitor and although the image quality's great, I really wish I'd gotten an IPS panel instead. The viewing angle's nuked from the "bottom" side in tate. Not a huge problem, but it bugs me. 23" is nice size, I sit about 4 feet away. The NEC EA231 or Dell U2311H seem like the best value for the money. Check out the recent discussion in the XRGB thread.

[Ed Oscuro]

My thought on tate monitors is that most arcade video games are low res, including ones in the vertical orientation, so there's little to be gained from adding another requirement to your LCD purchase (which can give you a less-than-ideal monitor for both situations - jack of all trades). Instead I personally keep around a 17" CRT computer monitor; not too big or heavy, easy to flip over. Of course you have to be able to feed it VGA signals...

[kerframil]

With 30" you're either among very expensive high-end monitors or quite cheap entry level LCDs. One of the most recommended gaming 32" LCDs over the past months was the Panasonic LX-L32S10. Nice picture and excellent (bar none) input lag.

As something of a newbie, I greatly appreciate this recommendation. However, the LX-L32S10 seems to be difficult to get hold of, having apparently been replaced by the TX-L32S20B. Would the performance of the latter model be equivalent?

[Elixir]

My thoughts on rotating LCD monitors for shmups.

Get yourself a cheap CRT along with a female-to-female adapter and VGA cable for 360. Throw the 360 into 640x and stretch to 2x (dot by dot). No quality loss at all, full screen. Applies to all 360 shmups which are rotatable.

[RGB32E]

My thoughts on rotating LCD monitors for shmups.

Get yourself a cheap CRT along with a female-to-female adapter and VGA cable for 360. Throw the 360 into 640x and stretch to 2x (dot by dot). No quality loss at all, full screen. Applies to all 360 shmups which are rotatable.

Ooohh.... sporting a Catherine avatar pic!

While CRTs are virtually instant (sans VP'ing) they have their own issues... Sure from a purist POV I agree with your blog, but newer eIPS panels (e.g. U2311H) don't get super phasy when tated.... Meh!

I don't care for the candy cabs for tate as the distance from your eyes to the bottom and top of the screen is too great.

[Elixir]

While CRTs are virtually instant (sans VP'ing) they have their own issues... Sure from a purist POV I agree with your blog, but newer eIPS panels (e.g. U2311H) don't get super phasy when tated.... Meh!

So, you agree with my blog but.. you don't? CRTs have their own issues... like what? What the hell is "super phasy"? "Super fussy" perhaps? They're LCD monitors - they don't have feelings. I'm not sure if you were the guy who commented on my blog (about how "modern technology (also in a personified sense) doesn't care for technology"), but it sounds to me like you're a tate'd LCD owner. Like I said in my blog, that's perfectly fine, but it's always at a sacrifice.

You don't have to be a perfectionist in order to get the best experience, my advice is there for people to better themselves. Anyone going from an LCD to CRT in this genre is definitely going to notice a difference, even moreso if they're going from yoko LCD to tate CRT.

I don't care for the candy cabs for tate as the distance from your eyes to the bottom and top of the screen is too great.

Great? Nobody was talking about cabs in this thread. What does your own personal preference have to do with CRTs and LCDs? And there's not just a single angle for every candy cab, either.

[killersquirel]

I was looking at the Dell U2311H for using in tate mode for both my xbox 360 and older platforms (ps1, ps2, saturn, etc).

What are the pros and cons of using this monitor in tate mode (and regular mode as well).
I'm looking at monitors around the $250-350 mark. Is there any recommendations for other monitors in this price range?
Thanks in advance.

-mike

[Ed Oscuro]

What the hell is "super phasy"? "Super fussy" perhaps?

I'm pretty sure RGB32E is referring to color shift, which is, as you say, still an issue with pretty much every LCD on the market, H-IPS or whatever. I don't notice any color shift on my Planar PX2611W but that's a rare situation.

CRTs do have issues, but just the traditional ones: Not at all energy efficient (though many people with LCDs have the backlight set to 100%, instead of set for the ambient light, which not only can multiply power usage but also shortens the lifespan of the whole device), heavy, radiation leakage (almost a non-issue of course). Phosphors don't strike me as always notably faster than LCDs for response time either (not lag, I mean motion blur and the like), though motion blur on CRTs is consistent, whereas most LCDs are absolutely terrible in comparison. But for playing classic games you might as well do it right - with a CRT instead of an LCD. I'm not trading my LCD monitor's better colors, high resolution, and perfect geometry off for a CRT monitor, but almost any arcade game I'd prefer to play on a CRT.

I was looking at the Dell U2311H for using in tate mode for both my xbox 360 and older platforms (ps1, ps2, saturn, etc).

What are the pros and cons of using this monitor in tate mode (and regular mode as well).
I'm looking at monitors around the $250-350 mark. Is there any recommendations for other monitors in this price range?

Best thing you can do is probably look up a review and cross your fingers that it's accurate. Here is a sample review.

For the price it looks decent. The one thing I will comment on is that the color shift - near the bottom of the page, the black screen that turns orange / red - really drives me nuts in arcade-style games, though that is a pretty extreme angle. But you ought to know that just rotating the screen - even if you're still viewing it head-on - can still bring up similar artifacts. My old (2005) SyncMaster 204B had a pivot feature, and it was pretty unusable pivoted because of the color shift, even though the screen was still head-on. The reason is that these panels are optimized for viewing when normally oriented in landscape format, with your eyes at the level of the top of the frame (standard ergonomics pamphlet recommendation). I can't guarantee it'll be good or bad for that particular monitor, but if I were you I wouldn't buy the monitor hoping that it will be usable pivoted. I'd look into getting a cheap CRT instead (I've gotten some great 17" CRT VGA monitors for $3 each).

[RGB32E]

Yes, by "super phasy" I was referring to color/luma shifting. The U2311H is better than a TN panel but not as good as a H-IPS. I was also considering the Alienware AW2310, but after playing around with one at PAX, I'm glad I didn't order it! I really dislike the dithering of TN panels (all are <8-bit panels)... not that I wouldn't use one, it's just one of those things I'd rather not be bugged by.

No, I don't really tate any of my monitors. I have several PVM-2030 monitors that are perfect for tating, but I rarely play in tate mode.

The phosphor composition in CRTs varies from one tube model to another. Hence, phosphor lag and flicker vary depending upon implementation. The quicker the phosphor, the more flicker you get with 60Hz signals. Bear in mind that I do really like CRTs, but my pref is aperature grill... not shadow mask.

From my research, the U2311H was the best match. Unless Dell decides to release a RGB LED lit version of the U2311H (the P2311H is the LED version of the U2311H), I don't see any good reason to buy anything else in the "reasonable" price range. The Planar PX2611W seems like a really nice monitor, it's just that I wasn't willing to pay that money, and wanted a newer model.

No, I didn't comment on your blog post Elixir...