Dialects adapt and change. You of all people should know this.Recap wrote:US people here seem to forget that if they use the term these days it's because they imported it from the UK thinking (wrongly) that it was used only for Final Fight-type games.
Beat 'Em Ups
although european, I think the US way of saying is more appropriate. I too think these genres are different enough, therefore not using the term beat'em up for Street Fighter games helps to underline the difference. After all, there is a huge difference between Spartan X and IK+.
It won't be easy for european however to stop calling Street Fighter a beat'em up, since it was THE beat'em up for so many years.
Also, the use of "them", well is appropriate to Street Fighter tournaments as well. If you select Chun Li, you have to beat all the others up to Vega (Them. Just not all them at the same time).
Edit: Capcom own labels maybe had a role in the evolution of vocabulary:
http://www.playstation.jp/products/alls ... s00415.jpg
I don't question the UK origin of the term, I just think the US way came later and suits more the modern days.
It won't be easy for european however to stop calling Street Fighter a beat'em up, since it was THE beat'em up for so many years.
Also, the use of "them", well is appropriate to Street Fighter tournaments as well. If you select Chun Li, you have to beat all the others up to Vega (Them. Just not all them at the same time).
Edit: Capcom own labels maybe had a role in the evolution of vocabulary:
http://www.playstation.jp/products/alls ... s00415.jpg
I don't question the UK origin of the term, I just think the US way came later and suits more the modern days.
Last edited by Turrican on Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Not a matter of "adaptation" in this case, thoe. Just "misconception".sethsez wrote:Dialects adapt and change. You of all people should know this.Recap wrote:US people here seem to forget that if they use the term these days it's because they imported it from the UK thinking (wrongly) that it was used only for Final Fight-type games.
I disagree. We've been calling them beat 'em ups as long as you have, but we have a different name for versus fighters. Different dialect, not misconception.Recap wrote:Not a matter of "adaptation" in this case, thoe. Just "misconception".sethsez wrote:Dialects adapt and change. You of all people should know this.Recap wrote:US people here seem to forget that if they use the term these days it's because they imported it from the UK thinking (wrongly) that it was used only for Final Fight-type games.
Since my primary function on these boards is blathering about Japan (
), I'll mention what they call these games...
1 on 1 (or team vs. team a la KOF, Marvel Vs Capcom 2, etc) fighting games are called "kakutou" (sorry, whenever I input Japanese from my computer here it gets garbled, so I won't bother) games, sometimes (but rarely) expanded out to "kakutou taisen" games. Beat-em-ups, ironically, don't really have a genre name at all. They're usually just called "action games."
Visit here for a lovely example of Capcom classifying their own Final Fight game as just an "action game." Meanwhile, they classify Capcom Fighting Jam as a "taisen kakutou" game.
), I'll mention what they call these games...1 on 1 (or team vs. team a la KOF, Marvel Vs Capcom 2, etc) fighting games are called "kakutou" (sorry, whenever I input Japanese from my computer here it gets garbled, so I won't bother) games, sometimes (but rarely) expanded out to "kakutou taisen" games. Beat-em-ups, ironically, don't really have a genre name at all. They're usually just called "action games."
Visit here for a lovely example of Capcom classifying their own Final Fight game as just an "action game." Meanwhile, they classify Capcom Fighting Jam as a "taisen kakutou" game.
It is not relevant for the use of "'em" in the term "beat'em up", as I explained you.Rob wrote:It's relevant because that's one of the major things that separates it from a beat em up.Recap wrote:If you fight them separately is not relevant.
If "the board" does that, "the board" is just wrong. I personally don't care if you consider them different genres, subgenres, whatever. For a start, I have serious doubts about using "beat'em up" to name a game genre. The point was that the term refers to all the types of fighting game, no matter the misuse some people make of it.How is it that a board that seperates Galaga and 1943 into two seperate genres has people arguing that Street Fighter II and Golden Axe are in the same genre?
"Taisen kakutou" is actually a subgenre in the action genre. Lots of vs. fighting games were classified as mere "action games" by Japanese media and companies.
So Green Beret is a knife 'em up?chtimi wrote:if you insist but i won't argue more about it after (anyway all those genre definitions are a matter of convention).D wrote: So what do you call Dragonninja then?
Because you DO beat people up after all!
What is the best verison of Dragonninja?
Ever released on a DATA EAST compilation? No? It's about time they did!
i call it nothing special, it's just a side-scrolling action game, sub-category of short-ranged attack ones, like green beret. would green beret be a beat-them up if you punched instead of knifing (everything else being the same)? sure you don't beat people up, but the gameplay is exactly the same, only the attack animation is different. what has a significant gameplay difference is games like double dragon (because of the other dimension you can move in).
i can't think of any dragonninja port, and i think data east has shut down a few years ago.
Street Fighter = a Fighting game.
Even before Street Fighter they were called this way
IK+ = a fighting game, not a beat 'em up.
You see the 'em-bit spoils it, meaning more than one at a time. Street Fighter 3 zero/alpha offcourse had the ability to fight more than one enemy in one stage at one time, but Okay....
I like fighting games and beat 'em ups and 'platform' beat 'em ups. Shinobi is a platform game right?
Dragon Ninja is a platform game right?
Crude Busters was ported to the genny, but I wanted Dragonninja damnit!
Damn you dysfunctional Euros for once again fucking up something that works (like say, for example, the world; I'm sure the Middle East and Africa want to thank you again for cutting them up arbitrarily so as to create nothing but death and destruction).
1 on 1 = fighting game.
1 on many = beat 'em up.
There's NOTHING else to it. Now go back to trying to ratify a constitution.
1 on 1 = fighting game.
1 on many = beat 'em up.
There's NOTHING else to it. Now go back to trying to ratify a constitution.
It's used that way in Europe. It's not used that way in America. Cram this through your thick skull and realize that language isn't the cut and dried "I'm right, all other dialects and widely used alternate definitions in various regions of the world are wrong" matter you always seem to think it is.Recap wrote:The point was that the term refers to all the types of fighting game, no matter the misuse some people make of it.
Umm. Dragon Ninja is known as Bad Dudes in the US and it was released on NES and some old computers like the Amiga.D wrote:So Green Beret is a knife 'em up?chtimi wrote:if you insist but i won't argue more about it after (anyway all those genre definitions are a matter of convention).D wrote: So what do you call Dragonninja then?
Because you DO beat people up after all!
What is the best verison of Dragonninja?
Ever released on a DATA EAST compilation? No? It's about time they did!
i call it nothing special, it's just a side-scrolling action game, sub-category of short-ranged attack ones, like green beret. would green beret be a beat-them up if you punched instead of knifing (everything else being the same)? sure you don't beat people up, but the gameplay is exactly the same, only the attack animation is different. what has a significant gameplay difference is games like double dragon (because of the other dimension you can move in).
i can't think of any dragonninja port, and i think data east has shut down a few years ago.
Street Fighter = a Fighting game.
Even before Street Fighter they were called this way
IK+ = a fighting game, not a beat 'em up.
You see the 'em-bit spoils it, meaning more than one at a time. Street Fighter 3 zero/alpha offcourse had the ability to fight more than one enemy in one stage at one time, but Okay....
I like fighting games and beat 'em ups and 'platform' beat 'em ups. Shinobi is a platform game right?
Dragon Ninja is a platform game right?
Crude Busters was ported to the genny, but I wanted Dragonninja damnit!
Your narrow skull still fails to consider that the subject has nothing to do with different dialects at all since the term is just used by a small community which already gave it an original definition when it was invented. If a tiny part of that community misuses it just because doesn't want to attend to the term's true definition is a superfluous effect.sethsez wrote: It's used that way in Europe. It's not used that way in America. Cram this through your thick skull and realize that language isn't the cut and dried "I'm right, all other dialects and widely used alternate definitions in various regions of the world are wrong" matter you always seem to think it is.
Except that the entirety of the community in America does not consider, never has considered, and never will consider Street Fighter a "beat 'em up." That's not exactly a "tiny part" of the community.
And no, the "community" does not use beat 'em up to refer to fighting games a la Street Fighter. Some of it does, some of it doesn't, but the community as a unified whole does not, and games such as Virtua Fighter, Samurai Shodown, Tekken, Fatal Fury, you name it are all referred to as "fighters" in America, not beat 'em ups. In every circle, in every publication, if it's in America, it's called a fighter. A fighting game. Perhaps a versus fighter just to shake things up. Never a beat 'em up.
How many different ways can this be said before you begin to grasp the fact that it's not a "tiny" part of the community, and the definition you use is not widely agreed on the world over?
By the way, quit acting like some arbitrary definition is set in stone as if it's been in use for hundreds of years without change when the reality is that it's a relatively new term with a tenuous definition at best. You speak with such certainty and authority about THE ONE TRUE DEFINITION when most people don't even agree on it, including the country where the games originated in the first place (as you said, "Lots of vs. fighting games were classified as mere 'action games' by Japanese media and companies.").
You want to say "in Europe, beat 'em up means x, y and z" then that's fine. You'd be right. But here, you're not.
And no, the "community" does not use beat 'em up to refer to fighting games a la Street Fighter. Some of it does, some of it doesn't, but the community as a unified whole does not, and games such as Virtua Fighter, Samurai Shodown, Tekken, Fatal Fury, you name it are all referred to as "fighters" in America, not beat 'em ups. In every circle, in every publication, if it's in America, it's called a fighter. A fighting game. Perhaps a versus fighter just to shake things up. Never a beat 'em up.
How many different ways can this be said before you begin to grasp the fact that it's not a "tiny" part of the community, and the definition you use is not widely agreed on the world over?
By the way, quit acting like some arbitrary definition is set in stone as if it's been in use for hundreds of years without change when the reality is that it's a relatively new term with a tenuous definition at best. You speak with such certainty and authority about THE ONE TRUE DEFINITION when most people don't even agree on it, including the country where the games originated in the first place (as you said, "Lots of vs. fighting games were classified as mere 'action games' by Japanese media and companies.").
You want to say "in Europe, beat 'em up means x, y and z" then that's fine. You'd be right. But here, you're not.
Seriously, it doesn't really matter how many people misuse the term now. It is not a US-media word (and I don't really think it's the word most US gamers use for that subgenre, anyways), but a UK-media one. It has an ORIGINAL definition by those who invented it. Import-related misconceptions, even if expanded, are just that.
Seriously, it doesn't matter how many people speak Spanish today. It's still a misuse of Latin. You're speaking an import misconception of an ORIGINAL language created during the Roman empire.Recap wrote:Seriously, it doesn't really matter how many people misuse the term now. It is not a US-media word (and I don't really think it's the word most US gamers use for that subgenre, anyways), but a UK-media one. It has an ORIGINAL definition by those who invented it. Import-related misconceptions, even if expanded, are just that.
Pretty poor analogy. Seems you have problems to distinguish between import - export and misconception - derivation.Turrican wrote: Seriously, it doesn't matter how many people speak Spanish today. It's still a misuse of Latin. You're speaking an import misconception of an ORIGINAL language created during the Roman empire.
No, I don't. You as Spanish "imported" it (well, technically the Romans exported it, but). I was writing from your pow. But it doesn't matter.Recap wrote:Pretty poor analogy. Seems you have problems to distinguish between import - export and misconception - derivation.
Seems you like to talk big on net boards, but since you do not possess Truth, you really are just annoying. An annoying, vocal minority that always wants to have the last word.
Study languages a bit more and you'll learn that a lot of current terms are misconceptions of earlier or foreign words. Once errors stick, they become history. The whole history is made of errors. Likewise, a misuse is spread, the original meaning is altered, and that doesn't stop it to enter in people's vocabulary. Languages are a living thing.
If you absolutely want to stick to a definition from 80s UK magazines, no one stops you. Just have the common sense to recognize that the rest of the world changed meanwhile. Unless today's world is just a misconception of your personal idea of it.
I'm still calling them "shooters," dagnabbit! If the rest of the world thinks I'm talking about Halo and Doom 3, that's its problem, not mine!Turrican wrote:If you absolutely want to stick to a definition from 80s UK magazines, no one stops you. Just have the common sense to recognize that the rest of the world changed meanwhile. Unless today's world is just a misconception of your personal idea of it.
In rememberance of the FPShite fiasco on the old board, I'm guessing we could make a filter for this board that will force people to speak English the proper way whether they like it or not.Rob wrote:I don't see you typing in Olde English. I support that idea, tho.
I must say, console fanboyism, mainstream gaming deprecation, is ________ a shmup debates, and favorite popcorn enemy explosion in a shmup polls would all be classier in Olde English.
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Icecap Veiwin
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Oh really, because there's an Alien vs. Predator cab at the "Smuggler's Arcade" in that one building at the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk. It's right to your left soon as you walk in, can't miss it.CMoon wrote:Yeah, Alpha, the game you speak of was of course released in the US as Warriors of Fate, and I loved the crap out of that game in the arcade. It is definitely one of Capcom's better moments and worlds better than Final Fighter (it has everything FF has and a lot more!) It is also significantly better than some of their other side scrollers like Captain Commando and Cadilacs and Dinosaurs. I still however feel their very best beat 'em up is Alien vs. preditor, but of course, because of licensing issues, you'll never be able to play this game outside of mame.
I was always a big fan of the "Streets of Rage" and "Golden Axe" series of games. I practically grew up on the Genesis.
The radio said, "No, John. You are the demons."
And then, John was a zombie.
And then, John was a zombie.
