How come no one has done a write up on CAVE at HG101?

[Skykid]

I like Cave games but I'm not much of a 1cc/score gamer, and anytime I write anything about Cave games criticizing this, people get all in a tizzy, so I'd rather have someone that fits that mindset to be a better judge.

Yeah, I saw that. Maybe if you wrote negatively after you played it people would react a bit differently? Especially when the port addresses your concerns with six easier game modes.

@ discoalucardx: Taylor is absolutely right. In fact, it's articles like those that make me apprehensive about anyone attempting a full blown HG101 entry.

Although you've been honest about how you feel regarding Cave shmups, you're writing from inexperience. Yes they're hard as nails, and in the beginning it feels pretty hopeless - we've all been there and felt that at one point. But it's not like solving-a-rubix-cube-in- ten-minutes hard, these are videogames, and despite taking weeks to master, anyone with a bit of dedication can get a 1cc or at least have a blast working up a decent score.

Because you seem a little green to the scene (if you don't mind me saying) the article has missed several important points and raised several erroneous ones about the shmups genre. Dedicate yourself to clearing Mushi 1.5 and when you do it, you'll probably look back and delete the entire article.

[MX7]

Man, I really wish I'd seen Taylor's post first. I can't really believe I bothered responding to someone who

1) is a proud games historian and thinks reading or writing about mechanics is boring
2) thinks games have objective quality
3) writes opinion pieces about these games' objective qualities without having even played them


Not to judge or say who is better, just that it's a waste of time to talk to someone who lives in a totally different universe and who will never understand where you're coming from. Eggs on me, I guess. My post should have been like Hardcore Gaming more like DOWNY SOFT GAMING hur hur.

Reading about game mechanics in the context of a review is boring. This is the kind of thing best left to a strategy guide. I do not believe it should be left out entirely, though. A review should succinctly address basic mechanics in the same way that it covers aesthetics, music and exactly why it's fun to play. By way of example, have a gander at this Edge review for Deathsmiles:

http://www.edge-online.com/features/review-deathsmiles

I think this review gets the balance of discussing the mechanics just about perfect. It describes the basics so that an expert would understand what was going on, and an STG virgin would begin to understand how to play the game. Imagine if a multiformat games magazine spent the entire page (rather than just a paragraph as seen here) nattering about slow tapping to keep the frame rate down, variegating tapping to extrapolate more gold crowns, bombing to instantly refill your crown counter and so on. To be fair, I and I imagine a majority of this site's readership would actually enjoy this, but to include it in a mainstream videogame magazine would be at the detriment of covering what actually matters to the majority of the readers, which is, 'is this game fun'. You'll also notice that the game scored an extremely favourable review, and therefore, it could be argued, potential new players could be roped in. It's all well and good aiming a review at an expert player, but there's requirement to be an expert to review the game, nor is there any requirement to arbitrarily pitch the review towards an expert player. Edge, like HG101 has a 'hardcore' ethos, but in effect, this translates to its readership being open minded enough to examine a number of different genres.

What troubles me is DiscoAlucard's dismissal of the fundamentals of shooting games. The Gears of War comparison in the blog that Taylor links is particularly troubling, and displays a complete lack of understanding of the genre. As damage limitation, he anticipates the 'you don't understand!' reprisal towards the start of the article, but this is essentially what it comes down to. Cave games, like most other STGs, are meant to be played for score. Unlike Gears of War, the primary reason for playing them is not for spectacle or completion, but to get a better score. If score based playing playing is not to ones liking, I can understand, as it is a particularly nebulous carrot in an age where most games reward with plot exposition or another sun drenched vista. But it would be like quitting tennis after one game, because you're bored of the sight of grass and do not see any other reason to continue. If you don't have that drive for continual self improvement, then STGs are not for you.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I think a big reason why many mainstream gamers dont (or dont want to) spend lots of time replaying a hard shmup is because many gamers like to finish a game and quickly move onto the next game. They will play just that game and nothing else utill they have completed it. Or move on as soon as they get board with it. (i used to be such a gamer b4 recently). edit; probably the reason why reviewers attack shmup xbox achievements aswell due to them been hard, And why mainstream gamers arnt bothered with that much with a shmups game mechanics, he just wont spend that much time with the game to matter (since there are tons of comercial and free shmups he can quickly move onto play it for a hour b4 moving on again, no wonder many gamers think £40 is too much for a shmup (I think microsoft agrees aswell))

If that sort of gamer came across a hard shmup he will never have the pacence to spend weeks/ months/ years to master it. Thats why i think the usual moan about a hard shmup like in that review article about cave games where he said these sort of games are quite desposable after youve seen all the game has to offer after 20 minutes of credit feeding. To attack a game because u want to play it in the way it was designed (1cc/ score in this case) is wrong in my mind, its like attacking console shooter cos they dont play with a mouse or that most (halo type) shooters have an auto save funtion and u dont want to play like that.

Everybody has their own tastes in games but it doesnt hurt to once in a while give something u dont usually like a go. I did and it has totally changed the way i am as a gamer and imo for the better. I dont mind replaying a hard game over and over because when i succeed at what i set out to do it gives me a great feeling of joy. Something i thought i had lost as a kid. (thx to Nolmtest and BWR)

For me i find it best when starting out to always play a shmup / game thats hard but not too hard like all those freeware shmups out there. Theres always a freeware shmup that plays like the big names like X.X games for Cave. I think many mainstream gamers get outright scared off when they see a top quality bullet hell. I was expecting Futuri to be a big hit in the west due to that 'hardest boss ever' you tube vid. Looking at its 1st week sales figures i think i was wrong.

Anyway since mainstream games like 1st person shooters are getting less and less in their single player content, which is probably due to devs spending their time on cookie cuter online play.(Modern warfare 2 single play is 6-8 hrs ive heard ppl clocking it in 4 hrs) It makes the time a gamer will spend on a game till completion even shorter. Hell b4 long there might be halo shooters with nearly the same amount of time gameplaywise as a shmup, i wonder what the reviewers will say then


Anyway back to HC 101 for me i like the site as i use it as a way of finding about cool games that i never knew about I like finding out about rare and unknown (atleast in the west) games, I love the Capcom Beat em up and the Love de-lic sections

[discoalucardx]

I like Cave games but I'm not much of a 1cc/score gamer, and anytime I write anything about Cave games criticizing this, people get all in a tizzy, so I'd rather have someone that fits that mindset to be a better judge.

Yeah, I saw that. Maybe if you wrote negatively after you played it people would react a bit differently? Especially when the port addresses your concerns with six easier game modes.

Maybe if people read the part right at the beginning that said "I haven't played it yet but this is my experience with all the past games, I hope this new one changes things a bit" then we wouldn't be having that discussion. Pretty much everything I've responded to involves people just skimming it and getting all furious. When the game actually arrives it will probably receive a follow up.

Although you've been honest about how you feel regarding Cave shmups, you're writing from inexperience. Yes they're hard as nails, and in the beginning it feels pretty hopeless - we've all been there and felt that at one point. But it's not like solving-a-rubix-cube-in- ten-minutes hard, these are videogames, and despite taking weeks to master, anyone with a bit of dedication can get a 1cc or at least have a blast working up a decent score.

You're right to an extent, but I just don't see the point of spending weeks upon weeks mastering a single game for reasons I don't care about. I can play other subgenres of shooters just fine without them demanding that much time and effort from me. This is my issue! And there are ways to fix things up to make it more palatable, but in the past, they haven't been done. Maybe Futari fixes it! If it does, I'll be more than happy.

[lgb]

here's a question: how do you review a game when you've never played it

[sikraiken]

Isn't Hardcore Gaming 101 a misleading title if you don't care about the hardcore aspect of gaming? The intricacies, the competition, etc? Needs more "Casual Gaming 101".

If you want to play a sport with sub-par players, you join an amateur league, and they don't call it professional. "I can't understand why anyone would ever want to get good at a single sport! I just like to play casually." Think about why people play games the way they do. Think about why people try to be great, or compete in anything.

Edit for syzcag: To follow along with the original intent of the thread, I don't think anyone could do justice on writing a comprehensive Cave article, so I hope no one does that. A lot of people seem to fail horribly at writing proper.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Although you've been honest about how you feel regarding Cave shmups, you're writing from inexperience. Yes they're hard as nails, and in the beginning it feels pretty hopeless - we've all been there and felt that at one point. But it's not like solving-a-rubix-cube-in- ten-minutes hard, these are videogames, and despite taking weeks to master, anyone with a bit of dedication can get a 1cc or at least have a blast working up a decent score.

You're right to an extent, but I just don't see the point of spending weeks upon weeks mastering a single game for reasons I don't care about. I can play other subgenres of shooters just fine without them demanding that much time and effort from me. This is my issue! And there are ways to fix things up to make it more palatable, but in the past, they haven't been done. Maybe Futari fixes it! If it does, I'll be more than happy.

Thats why i sugest easing yourself in with an easier bullet hell shmup. You may not want to spend over a month with 1 game trying to 1cc it but why dont you try a game that is still hard but not that hard and you can make a 1cc in possibly a week or 2. How long you spend trying to complete a shmup is imo secondry to how hard u had to try to get there in the end, If this only takes a few days its still a good buzz that youve manage to beat it. I would try X.Xs games or other doujins. If you dont like Cave like games try a shmup you do like but try to 1cc it or even no miss a level. Cho Ren Sha or Recca will only give u 1 credit anyway so play them.

HeHe anyway thats enough of my missionary work. KNEEL YOU HEATHENS! THERE IS ONLY ONE CREDIT!!!

[Skykid]

Although you've been honest about how you feel regarding Cave shmups, you're writing from inexperience. Yes they're hard as nails, and in the beginning it feels pretty hopeless - we've all been there and felt that at one point. But it's not like solving-a-rubix-cube-in- ten-minutes hard, these are videogames, and despite taking weeks to master, anyone with a bit of dedication can get a 1cc or at least have a blast working up a decent score.

You're right to an extent, but I just don't see the point of spending weeks upon weeks mastering a single game for reasons I don't care about. I can play other subgenres of shooters just fine without them demanding that much time and effort from me. This is my issue! And there are ways to fix things up to make it more palatable, but in the past, they haven't been done. Maybe Futari fixes it! If it does, I'll be more than happy.

I respect that you're entitled to your opinions, and I appreciate that the writings are an honest reflection of how you perceive the games to be. If you're not into scoring, Cave games probably won't offer much longevity for you, in that the skill of scoring is centrifugal to pretty much everything they turn out. What you need to understand is that people thrive on that. Not only is the pressure of danmaku shooters a thrill, but the process of learning is a really satisfying one. Weeks don't seem like much when you're have 10 minute goes every now and then.
None of us jumped out of bed one day and thought that we'd like to dedicate ourselves to score based gaming, but after becoming ingratiated with the scene (and the high score boards here) the competitive element is really fantastic.

Simply put, you dislike aspects of Cave shooters for reasons you haven't quite fully grasped the meaning of yet.

[emphatic]

You're right to an extent, but I just don't see the point of spending weeks upon weeks mastering a single game for reasons I don't care about. I can play other subgenres of shooters just fine without them demanding that much time and effort from me. This is my issue! And there are ways to fix things up to make it more palatable, but in the past, they haven't been done. Maybe Futari fixes it! If it does, I'll be more than happy.

Isn't Hardcore Gaming 101 a misleading title if you don't care about the hardcore aspect of gaming? The intricacies, the competition, etc? Needs more "Casual Gaming 101".

Damn you, I was going to write exactly that! Now I'll just go with "Novice Gaming 101".

[Taylor]

Maybe if people read the part right at the beginning that said "I haven't played it yet but this is my experience with all the past games, I hope this new one changes things a bit" then we wouldn't be having that discussion. Pretty much everything I've responded to involves people just skimming it and getting all furious. When the game actually arrives it will probably receive a follow up.

I think the disclaimer is half the trouble. Whatever, you should be pleasantly surprised.

[Acid King]

I respect that you're entitled to your opinions, and I appreciate that the writings are an honest reflection of how you perceive the games to be. If you're not into scoring, Cave games probably won't offer much longevity for you, in that the skill of scoring is centrifugal to pretty much everything they turn out. What you need to understand is that people thrive on that.

This. The key is to recognize the importance of the scoring systems to the game's design, whether you're a score player or not. Yeah, you may have no interest in playing for score, but like it or not, thats where the value of the games typically come from. It's not that they have no longevity, just no longevity for someone that has no interest in learning gameplay.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I respect that you're entitled to your opinions, and I appreciate that the writings are an honest reflection of how you perceive the games to be. If you're not into scoring, Cave games probably won't offer much longevity for you, in that the skill of scoring is centrifugal to pretty much everything they turn out. What you need to understand is that people thrive on that.

This. The key is to recognize the importance of the scoring systems to the game's design, whether you're a score player or not. Yeah, you may have no interest in playing for score, but like it or not, thats where the value of the games typically come from. It's not that they have no longevity, just no longevity for someone that has no interest in learning gameplay.

Exatly, a good bullet hell or any shmup are just like that simple to grasp and play (credit feed) but if u can scratch under the surface and they can be taken as deep as the gamer wishes to take the game. EG no missing level 1 to 1CC, 1LC or a score thats a World Record. Alsong as the player has the imigination and drive they can get a hell of alot out of a shmup even simpler and easier freeware shmup (which is what im mostly playing atm cos of my blog that i have) can have a great deal to offer a gamer.

A game which had these qualities would be hailed as a classic by the mainstream press. But for some reason they are ignored in a shmup no mater how loud we yell, we just get branded as elitest or an over the top hardcore gamer with no life (im sick of reading that in the comments of that famous futuri you tube video)

I think 1 reason maybe that alot of these goals are (or seem to be) self imposed, In many shmups there are no obvoius rewards that mr joe blogs gamer can see cos to him as soon as he see the ending credits the games finished as hes concerned.

I agree with discoalucardx ( and think he made some valid pionts later in his articale) that shmup makers should do things to get a normal gamer who doesnt mind a the odd game of a shmup into 'seeing the light about 1cc/ score'. I bet theres lots of ways (off the top of my head) more easier noob friendly game modes that are totally built around the 1cc gaming method, single level modes that have tobe no missed to complete them. Or in the normal mode having hidden last bosses or not given out the full ending (or different endings) untill the games 3cc, 2cc, 1cc or 1lc.

I know some of these features are already (but alot more should be done) in some shmups including caves games but the problem is they are too far hidden and not obvious to a gamer so much so that he will play a shmup like any other game and call us so called 'hardcore shmuppers' sad ppl with no life. We all know the shmupping industry is a bugger for keeping their games in a cloud of mistery just look at scoring mechanics where we are left to work it out ourselfs. So i do think the cdommercial shmup industry should change there ways if they want to get back ontop again where they rightly belong.

edit: bloody hell ive written alot today and gone way past even enhansa's amount of text . so thats it now ill have to stop myself from writting here b4 i write a sequel to war and peace

[everlust]

Oh this thread seems to be turning sour. Personally, i find the whole longevity derived from scoring issue a bit odd. As of late, my gaming with shmups is quite casual, though that refers to my gaming as a whole. When i grew up and often played these type of games in the arcades, I'd be happy simply from seeing how far i got on a single credit, and where my score turned out to be, and as others have mentioned, there's a definite thrill there, such as i love going on extremely long runs dodging bullets through stages, extremely satisfying. As of the moment, i don't play for scores, but i respect those that do and go to the extra extent of learning the in and outs of the games design and respective gameplay.

The fellas who contribute to strategies, have lengthy discussions on mechanics, and so on, props to them, as they will get the most out of games of which they LOVE. On my end, longevity for such games comes from the fact how i can just play them time and time again. No matter how much i had played a single title awhile ago, i could just pop it back in and get the exact same enjoyment and feel out of it as when i first played. Though i may not play these games extensively, at least not anymore, shmups were there when i started gaming, and my favorite genre, and one genre, of which i could see myself playing long after i essentially stop gaming all together.

In trying not to just throw a useless personal opinion about all this, i say that given the market of such games, and how they're designed and therefore cater to the market, it's really hard to be objective concerning them, especially when you don't exactly understand why the hardcore shumppers play them.

[t0yrobo]

I don't want to add any more lengthy posts to this so I'll keep my point real short.
Scoring and game mechanics are extremely important no matter what. They don't necessarily require lengthy descriptions in reviews, but at least a general explanation. The reason I say that is because even if you're playing purely for survival and nothing else at some point you'll realize that scoring higher means you get more lives, which adds to a better chance of survival.

[Turrican]

I'd love for someone to rewrite certain parts of the Twinbee article ...Nah, it's ok. Just kidding

I broke your Yahoo! record btw...

Ah! Been on a hiatus from this forum for too long, but I did notice that

Well done!

[Ed Oscuro]

Discoalucard has been an important member of the gaming scene for a long while now. But the main criticisms in this thread are pretty fair.

In fact I never started to enjoy classic games a bunch until I started looking more closely at scoring play. Of course, that "ruins" some games for me, too (Space Manbow is a prime example).

There's nothing wrong with scoring as a motivation for gaming; just ask anybody who strives to grab all 1000 points worth of achievements in Xbox 360 titles. That's scoring, but in a non-traditional format. I guess the main problem with shooters for many people is that (aside from the difficulty) it can be hard to figure out scoring for anything more complicated than a Toaplan shooter. But there's certainly got to be an alternative between the single-campaign and limited replayability of the average classic console game, and the babysitting of modern titles.

We talked about this a bit recently when I posted a link to this. I find it very hard to really enjoy lots of games where the parts that are causing me trouble occur a long ways in, but the opening portions don't provide any challenge. This is not generally a problem with balanced arcade shooters. Difficulty ramps are for people with too much time on their hands; the best way to feel good about your playing is to realize that "tough" portions are going easily for you.

Anyway, the arguments between casual and cardwhore come up regularly enough. Just recently this was discussed at Digital Press as well.

[Rob]

I agree, and I very much hope Rob makes the Psikyo writeup. PLEASE!

As much as I like them, I couldn't write about everything they've done (or make what I know interesting to read). I haven't played their Model 2 releases or anything under X-Nauts, for example.

[ShmupSamurai]

Hope it happens sometime inj the future...

[moonblood]

http://hg101.kontek.net/ketsui/ketsui.htm

[evil_ash_xero]

I had wrote Kurt asking him about Cave write ups, and he mentioned Ketsui being a big possibility. Well, he's quick.

However, I think he needs to edit the artist. I believe the art in this game was supplied by someone other than Jun.

Thanks Kurt.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Woot Im glad HCG101 has finally covered a Cave game. Even though I did go into missonary mode awhile back to try to convert the guy who runs the site into playing for score/ 1cc. He still runs a cracking site and is great for sniffing out those gems i didnt know existed.