XRGB-3

[Fudoh]

regarding your scrennshots above: problem is that most people actually prefer the result pictured in the lower snapshot.

[RGB32E]

regarding your scrennshots above: problem is that most people actually prefer the result pictured in the lower snapshot.

What makes you say that?

Was there something in particular of interest about the HDBOX Pro?

[Fudoh]

experience. 10 years of lively discussions about good and bad scaling engines...

[RGB32E]

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... auto&tl=en

Questions ※ (equipment status and connections are used, please give as much detail as possible. In particular, the input and output devices, signal types, please make sure you write. "映Rimasen" just and well written, unable to get back to you, would you ask the customer and again. In addition, XRGB-4 and 3 XPC-case, please fill out the firmware versions. but trouble you , thank you. Also, please put the appropriate line breaks.

Actual text:

※質問内容（ご使用状況や接続されている機器など、出来るだけ詳しくお書きください。特に、入力側と出力側の機器と、その信号の種類は必ずお書きください。「映りません」とだけ書かれても、ご返答することができず、再度お客様にお聞きすることとなってしまいます。また、, XRGB-3 やXPC-4の場合は、ファームウェアのバージョンもご記入下さい。ご面倒ですが、よろしくお願い致します。また、適当に改行をお入れください。

[Zapf]

How would I go about getting an xrgb2? I don't really need d-terminal since I'm not planning on hooking up ps2/gcn/etc, and I dont really need the scaling at the moment (I have a 1080p screen, but its vga res options are awful).

On a related note, why would a 1920x1080 display only have the following options for resolution on its vga connection:

720x400
640x480
800x600
1024x768
1360x768 (the only 16:9 resolution available)
1280x1024
1400x1050
1600x1200 (a vertical res larger than the resolution of the display...)

edit: this is a sharp lc32e67u

[Zapf]

is it true that the xrgb2 has functions the xrgb2+ doesn't have? I'm trying to get one off digitpress forums and I feel like I'm getting yanked around here.

it doesn't have functions of the XRGB-2 I'm selling (they are worth more), because of their scanlines function plus version lacks.

according to the wiki, xrgb2+ has more scanline options than the 2 - is there something I'm missing here?

[Fudoh]

The 2 (non plus) has just scanlines on/off (with rather high density), while the 2plus has four density levels to choose from. The non plus also has just a RGB Scart input, while the 2+ has RGB Scart and YUV (component) inputs. The *ONLY* reason to choose a 2 (non plus) over the 2+ is that it runs PCB's with non standard refresh rates (e.g. Seibu boards with 54hz), but even then this only works if you're using a VGA displas which supports those refresh rates.

[Zapf]

Thats what I gathered from reading the wiki, I was just tryin to figure out why this seller was making those claims - I guess they are just not very informed. I'm trying to get a 2 over a 2+ because I assumed it would be cheaper - they want $240 shipped for it though (in the US) which is higher than what I've been seeing 2+'s go for.

[Animaitor]

Did you try resetting the unit? When powered off press and hold Menu + OK and press Power. I'm using 2.12e and i don't have that problem.

Thanks to you and Fudoh. The resetting made the trick and now I can change the VL_V (English firmware) value to 255 and get rid of those annoying thick lines. Also fixed something else as Ketsui looks great on my LCD. The wavy scrolling is gone and get wonderful scanlines.

I'd also like to add that I'm using my PS3 with the XRGB-3 as my monitor isn't HDCP compatible. I almost spent a fortune on a HD Fury but a D4 cable did the trick as the signal is not digital but you can still get high resolutions. Maybe the PS3 should be added on the XRBG wiki...

[cfx]

.

[Fudoh]

This was on various CRT monitors, and I'm sure the results may differ with different monitors though.

yes, they do. I would not recommend a 2 or a 2+ on a LCD though, since both exhibit those problems there.

[Phellan Wolf]

I was just wondering wich XRGB is better for older consoles up to Dreamcast. Because I can get a XRGB 2+ for a mere 100€ but I don't know if is much better than XRGB-3. Also will it be suitable to use the XRGB 2+ with a Xbox 360 to play the arcade mode of the Cave games, DOJ and Ketsui properly???

[Fudoh]

I was just wondering wich XRGB is better for older consoles up to Dreamcast

the XRGB-2+ and 3 (in B1 mode) are pretty much identical. The XRGB-3 is simply the newer design with a lot more tweaking potential. The 3 also does support 480p input which the 2+ won't.

Also will it be suitable to use the XRGB 2+ with a Xbox 360 to play the arcade mode of the Cave games, DOJ and Ketsui properly???

that hardly makes any sense. Why should any external processing of a 480i be better than a native 480p (such as the 360 delivers via VGA, YUV and HDMI) ? The only situation where it makes sense to use a 360 with a XRGB is in conjunction with an Emotia or UVC, but that's a different topic.

[Phellan Wolf]

I am planning on buying an Emotia too to use it in conjuction with the XRGB unit. But considering that I can get a 2+ unit for 100€, do you think it will do the trick for what I am looking for or it is much better investing a lot more and get the 3.

[Animaitor]

hahahaha!!! So you are ready to burn some money on a XRGB-Emotia combo Eres un viciado como pocos

As Fudoh, said, the XRBG-3 has more options to play with. I believe the XRGB-2plus has only 3 values to control how the scanlines are displayed. Do you remember when we played Ketsui a while back at my house? The image was not displayed correctly due to a firmware problem I was having but after reseting the unit, now the image looks waaay better!! I'll post some images comparing the image quality using a CRT TV, and different settings on my LCD over at EOL's Ketsui thread.

[imparanoic]

i have a xrgb 2 ( non plus) for sale at 70gbp, no box, come with power supply.

if interested, please write to

imparanoic@hotmail.com

[RGB32E]

I just found this product:

http://www.startech.com/item/CPNT2VGAA- ... erter.aspx

It sells for less on eBay... I wonder if it is LMH1251 based? Did the VDigi Wii VGA use this chip? This device might be useful if it does a better job of YUV to RGBHV conversion than the XRGB-3.

Which reminds me, I need to check out the PCB and build a playstation adaptor for the VDigi Wii HDMI upscaler. Anyone interested?

[imparanoic]

xrgb2 for sale

you can check my ratings on ebay

you can also view my ebay account as i have 100% positive feedback, traded many games over the last 2 years,

http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/imparanoic/

[RGB32E]

$2,000 USD, an agreement with Analog Devices, and FPGA programming skills....

http://www.analog.com/en/audiovideo-pro ... s/fca.html

The SCART RGB input is ready to go... so it's just a matter of programming the FPGA... just like the XRGB-3, but with newer HW and the full spread of inputs and outputs!

[Fudoh]

If one was willing to take on such a task, I'd highly recommend to take a chance with the GF9452 evaluation board. It's about the same price range and the missing Scart socket should be easily addable.

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products.php?id=87
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/uploads/doc ... 452_br.pdf

The problem with the FPGA solution above is that it's likely too epensive in production. The Ex-Gennum chips (now sigma) are good and relatively cheap in comparison....

The ABT/DVDO VP50/50 Pro are probably based on an ealier design of the Analog Devices concept. They use the Xilinx FPGA's as well.

[RGB32E]

If one was willing to take on such a task, I'd highly recommend to take a chance with the GF9452 evaluation board. It's about the same price range and the missing Scart socket should be easily addable.

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products.php?id=87
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/uploads/doc ... 452_br.pdf

The problem with the FPGA solution above is that it's likely too epensive in production. The Ex-Gennum chips (now sigma) are good and relatively cheap in comparison....

The ABT/DVDO VP50/50 Pro are probably based on an ealier design of the Analog Devices concept. They use the Xilinx FPGA's as well.

Yes, I am interested in taking up this task, as I'd rather not wait for Micomsoft to release (or not) a XRGB-3 successor. I have enough graphics programming experience to attempt this type of project - it's just a matter of obtaining the eval kit...

Does the GF9452 have the inherent problem of ringing like the DVDO products? Have you checked pricing for the eval board? What VPs have you tried that use the GF9452?

Also, I see you have a cinemateq unit for sale. From your description, it sounds equal to the XRGB-3??? If so, why are you selling it?


Edit:
If the mult-tap scaling cannot be disabled on the GF945x series, the chip would be worthless to me:

http://www.s3graphics.com/en/technologi ... pportId=42

PanelSharp Expansion

PanelSharp Expansion upscaling technology provides improved quality for an upscaled destination pixel. This method was designed to provide a crisp graphics or text edge and to avoid the blurriness on graphics images, including video, introduced by many popular multi-tap filters.

The basic idea behind this methodology is to stretch an image in a manner similar to the way a rubber band might be stretched. This method avoids the creation of any undesirable artifact halos that might be introduced using a multi-tap filter. This method may appear similar to linear interpolation, but it's not. PanelSharp Expansion produces results which are much sharper than linear interpolation. <-- YES PLEASE!!!

S3 Graphics software will control the activation of PanelSharp expansion and will own the decision whether to apply PanelSharp technology or to use alternate traditional expansion techniques.

So, it seems the scaler in the VDigi Wii HDMI scaler uses multi-tap...

Multi-tap == ringing artifacts.... game over!

I want a VP with the equivalent engine to S3's PanelSharp Expansion upscaling technology!

[Fudoh]

Yes, I am interested in taking up this task

having just finished university I was thinking about this as well, but feel free to go ahead. After all I could imagine that such a project would blossom much more in the hands of enthusiasts (and with open source firmware) and with money not being the number one interest.

Does the GF9452 have the inherent problem of ringing like the DVDO products? Have you checked pricing for the eval board? What VPs have you tried that use the GF9452?

none, I don't know any, the 9452 is just the youngest child of the VXP processor series. Basically it's overkill, since it has a dual processing engine (for Picture in Picture) and is a pure 12-bit design. Earlier designs of the same processor were used in the Optoma HD3000 and in the Lumagen Radiance series of processors.

The reason why I would recommend a Sigma processor of this very series for any project of this kind, is actually the scaling engine. You have read this in my review already, but to state this again: Gennum's scaling engine is incredible for graphics signals. The HD3000 (which uses the chip's engine) does a wonderful job on scaling 240p/480i/p/720p signals to 1080p. Lumagen does not use the VXP's scaling engine, they use the chip for deinterlacing and postprocessing only.

Also, I see you have a cinemateq unit for sale. From your description, it sounds equal to the XRGB-3??? If so, why are you selling it?

any of the dedicated videoprocessors I tested (except for the HD3000) has a scaling engine optimized for video, which is simply what I (and you) don't want. We need a graphics scaling engine, similar to what the XRGB does in B1 mode (just better) (or the HD3000).

If the mult-tap scaling cannot be disabled on the GF945x series, the chip would be worthless to me

I feared every kind of scaling - just as you do. Until I saw what the GF series can do. The GF processors do a fantastic job on keeping razor sharp pixels - DESPITE using a multi-tap scaling engine.

PanelSharp Expansion....

just a copy of what Gennum did years ago. If it wasn't so hard to get a hold of a HD3000, I'd say, get out and get one and see for yourself.

So, it seems the scaler in the VDigi Wii HDMI scaler uses multi-tap...

don't compare such a crap to a high-profile VXP processor just because they use the same terminology

I want a VP with the equivalent engine to S3's PanelSharp Expansion upscaling technology!

and that is exactly what the GF..... series delivers.


PS: Unfortunately Sigma deleted the online sources for the GF93 series (..30/31/50/51). Maybe Sigma would be willing to sell a evaluation board for those discontinued processors cheap (if they have any left).

[RGB32E]

I started taking pictures of the outside and PCB... looked up the input processor and found that it is this:

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tvp7002.pdf

I suspect that VDigi set the operation mode of the TVP7002 to video, instead of graphics!!! I need to confirm this though! This chip has 3 RGB/Component inputs and accepts RGsB (perfect for PS2 VGA)!!! It also has multiple LPF modes!!! The Wii cable lead is socketed to the PCB! I believe I can mod the Wii HDMI adapter to be a 3 RGB/component input graphics scaler instead of a video scaler!!! WHOOT!!!

[boogleboggle]

In the Wiki it mentions the XRGB-3 being extremely sensitive to noise from a PS2 Component cable. Does this happen when using both the Component->D-Terminal adapter and the Component->RGB21 adapter?

Also, is the shaky and unstable vertical sync present for all sources on B1 mode? My main use for an XRGB would be for PS1 games on a PS2 via Component, and roughly half of the games would be text-filled RPGs.

Due to the rarity of Sony's official RGB21 cable online and in the event that Component is just too noisy on the XRGB no matter the adapter, will a European SCART cable work on a North American PS2 console? I'm aware that I'd need to get a SCART->RGB21 adapter instead of a direct plugin to the XRGB.

[Fudoh]

In the Wiki it mentions the XRGB-3 being extremely sensitive to noise from a PS2 Component cable. Does this happen when using both the Component->D-Terminal adapter and the Component->RGB21 adapter?

yes, but if you want to use the front 21-pin input anyway, you can also use a Scart cable and just set both the PS2 and the XRGB to component. Works well and the cable is better shielded which results in less noise.

Also, is the shaky and unstable vertical sync present for all sources on B1 mode? My main use for an XRGB would be for PS1 games on a PS2 via Component, and roughly half of the games would be text-filled RPGs.

nothing to worry about with the XRGB-3. It depends on your display and if it's visible just use the LPF setting...

will a European SCART cable work on a North American PS2 console?

it sure does.

[CrackLtd]

By far the best scaler for PS1 games has the backwards compatible PS3 in PS1 mode. (i think any PS3 can play back PS1 titles, just for PS2 titles it needs to be backwards compatible.) Of course you have to switch off the 'smoothing' option which gets rid of the edge enhancement. This way you get an very retro looking, blocky like picture but its ultra sharp. And i mean ultra. No shadows, no halos, no artefacts, no blurryness, totally perfect. The XRGB-3 only is the second best solution for PS1 games. The backdraw for PS1 playing on PS3 is that the PS3 is not yet hacked, so you need to have originals and those also have to match the consoles region. I heard there is so called switch mod, that lets you play backups after initilising the drive with an original, but this sounds very unconvenient.

[RGB32E]

In the Wiki it mentions the XRGB-3 being extremely sensitive to noise from a PS2 Component cable. Does this happen when using both the Component->D-Terminal adapter and the Component->RGB21 adapter?

I'm quite familiar with this scenario... You need a RGB cable with good caps to obtain "noise-free" PS/XRGB-3 operation. I make and sell such cables! With the proper cabling, the B0 scaled output is extremely close to what the PS3 does. Want a comparison pick?

Also, is the shaky and unstable vertical sync present for all sources on B1 mode? My main use for an XRGB would be for PS1 games on a PS2 via Component, and roughly half of the games would be text-filled RPGs.

With a proper cable and adjustments on the XRGB-3, the PS can operate virtually shake free in B1 mode (low NTSC AFC Level). However, not all other consoles play this nice!

Due to the rarity of Sony's official RGB21 cable online and in the event that Component is just too noisy on the XRGB no matter the adapter, will a European SCART cable work on a North American PS2 console? I'm aware that I'd need to get a SCART->RGB21 adapter instead of a direct plugin to the XRGB.

Yes, the offical scart cables are the same as the JP21 version, but the termination is different. The offical cables are too long IMHO and length adds to noise and attenuation. Adding an adapter (SCART to JP21) only adds to the problem (signal noise).

I have the same (official sony) cable stock used for those cables but is unterminated on the destination side (no scart plug). This enables me to build any cable configuration for PS RGB cables using the highest quality cable stock. Those I've make cables for are very happy with the results!

[lordnikon]

By far the best scaler for PS1 games has the backwards compatible PS3 in PS1 mode. (i think any PS3 can play back PS1 titles, just for PS2 titles it needs to be backwards compatible.) Of course you have to switch off the 'smoothing' option which gets rid of the edge enhancement. This way you get an very retro looking, blocky like picture but its ultra sharp. And i mean ultra. No shadows, no halos, no artefacts, no blurryness, totally perfect. The XRGB-3 only is the second best solution for PS1 games. The backdraw for PS1 playing on PS3 is that the PS3 is not yet hacked, so you need to have originals and those also have to match the consoles region. I heard there is so called switch mod, that lets you play backups after initilising the drive with an original, but this sounds very unconvenient.

Actually, I feel the XRGB-3 edges out the PS3 for some people due to the fact that it can render emulated scanlines over any incoming 240p signal. Effectively replicating the same look you would get on an SDTV. Playing PS1 games on the PS3 in HD is basically like playing them emulated on a PC.

[ikaruga007]

I'm planning on using the XRGB-3 as an upscaler for 15kHz JAMMA games in my Naomi cabinet that's fitted with a 31kHz monitor.

I've read at several places that there are a few games that don't work well with the XRGB-3 because of some weird sync rates or something, but I've never seen a mention of exactly which games.

I was wondering if you guys can help me out. If there are too many to mention here, I'm thinking in particular about Dragon Blaze, Nebulas Ray (which are going to be the first two games I'll look for) and the Cave shmups.

[ZOM]

Nebulas Ray and Dragon blaze are both very close to 60Hz, so they should work fine anyways.
Cave's first generation hardware runs somewhere at 57 Hz so that could normally give problems, but I thought Micomsoft did include a widerange exactly for the purpose of hooking up some "popular" pcbs without too much trouble? Maybe someone else can confirm the bit about cave-pcb.