Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

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BulletMagnet
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by BulletMagnet »

Acid King wrote:No one's demanding anything.
You must not get the same news feeds I do then - to cite just one example, the recent outrage over the "reconciliation" process used by the Dems to pass some adjustments to the health care legislation, which was decried throughout the media (not just "conservative" outlets) as an attempt to "ram the bill down America's throat". Of course, when the Reps used the exact same process to pass (among other things) Bush's major round of tax cuts (which, by the way, have already cost us more than health care reform ever will), nobody said jack diddly-squat. Sorry, but liberals are the ones who are always expected to move heaven and Earth to reach compromises, while conservatives are praised for their "bold resilience" when they tell the other side (to quote Jim DeMint) "tough shit".
If you believe that it's better for the Democratic party's electoral future to act as though the Republicans, their policy suggestions and the voters who they will be appealing to in the midterm elections don't exist, then that's just like, your opinion, man.
Obviously they can't do that (the stuff you mentioned earlier about the "blue dogs" and the like certainly rings true), but at this point I'm honestly just so freaking tired of my concerns being so brazenly marginalized, no matter who's in power, that I can't bring myself to put much stock in anything that conservatives say on these matters, since every time it's merely a bald-faced attempt to weaken any semblance of a progressive agenda ("I hope he fails"), no matter the cost, and regardless of reason (or lack thereof). Of course, the fact that the aforementioned media double-standard makes the Dems so utterly spineless in the face of ANY such opposition certainly doesn't help my mood either. Not to the point where I'd take a loaded assault rifle to a health care town hall, mind you, but for anyone who doesn't believe that any sort of government action whatsoever is Another Step on the Road to Socialism, this has been an astoundingly frustrating decade...and yet all you hear is blather about how there's a Great Liberal Conspiracy afoot to take away everyone's freedoms away, and that "real Americans" need to demonize and resist them in any way possible.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by undamned »

Ed Oscuro wrote:I am laughing at the idea of another right-winger swearing to leave the country if this bill passes - where will they go, I wonder?
My wife and I were talking about that thought process last night. The crux is choice. If I choose to move to another country and have to adopt their system, that's on me. If I live here and a new system is forced upon me, that's just the thing people get upset about.
BulletMagnet wrote:... and legally designated throwing poor people into incinerators as an "alternative energy source"
That's actually pretty funny (morbid).
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by antron »

do you not already have health insurance, ud?

if you have it, nothing's going to change.
if you can't afford it, you'll get a voucher.
if you don't want it, realize your risk to the system is not zero.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by professor ganson »

Amazing stuff happening. Investing in the health of the workforce rather than starting pointless wars? A remarkable strategy! It's nice to have someone intelligent in charge again.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by brentsg »

My biggest concern is what's happened to our ability to communicate about important issues in the USA. I have never been a big talker of politics in the workplace, but man things got really bad during the election and aren't any better now.

The pro-Obama talk got so thick at work that it was difficult to avoid discussing politics. But if people could sniff-out that you didn't buy into all the hype, it got outright dangerous. You were instantly ridiculed and stereotyped into a war-mongering, bible thumping idiot regardless of what these people knew about you from working together. Respect was tossed out the window.

The craziest thing is if you ask these people about their feelings on any particular issue, what they would change, etc most of them had nothing to offer than a blank stare. They had figured out which politicians had on black or white hats from bumper stickers and slogans, maybe the occasional news sound byte. But man were they entrenched. And sadly this has bled over into the healthcare debate and other things. It seems having some kind of rational discussion is impossible.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

Was watching TV last night and the news ticker had said that the Universal Health Care measure had passed in the House by a mere 9 votes. Means the American public is gonna more taxes for this program...aren't we still in this recession?

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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by antron »

PC Engine Fan X! wrote:Was watching TV last night and the news ticker had said that the Universal Health Care measure had passed in the House by a mere 9 votes. Means the American public is gonna more taxes for this program...aren't we still in this recession?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
yes, if you make over $250,000 you will pay more taxes.

but your insurance company will stop over-charging you to cover the unpaid bills of people without insurance. currenty, hospitals over-bill your insurance company for your procedures to cover them.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

antron wrote:
PC Engine Fan X! wrote:Was watching TV last night and the news ticker had said that the Universal Health Care measure had passed in the House by a mere 9 votes. Means the American public is gonna more taxes for this program...aren't we still in this recession?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
yes, if you make over $250,000 you will pay more taxes.

but your insurance company will stop over-charging you to cover the unpaid bills of people without insurance. currenty, hospitals over-bill your insurance company for your procedures to cover them.
Thanks for the clarification on this health issue, Antron.

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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by szycag »

I agree totally with brentsg, people should be able to talk to their peers about the things that affect their lives without getting pigeonholed into some all encompassing opposition. The political climate in this country has scared the hell out of everyone. But I believe that suits the people that hold the real power in this country. Fear is manipulative and it's on both sides.

I thought I'd share this Noam Chomsky video about Health Care reform. He's one of my heroes, I think he's the closest thing we have to Spock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvo9O4A18d0
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Skykid »

This is an incredibly positive change for the US, I'm really happy that this has happened. For the first time in so long the poor of the country are being represented by the government and a president who (on this matter at least) has shown resolve.

Increasing the tax on the rich to pay for the healthcare of the poor is totally justified, especially considering the suffering of people who couldn't afford health insurance. As long as they can keep a healthy balance in terms of benefit schemes (unlike the UK, which pretty much encourages the idle to rely on benefits and doss about) it could be the start of great things.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by brentsg »

Skykid wrote:Increasing the tax on the rich to pay for the healthcare of the poor is totally justified
This sounds fine when you boil it down to a sound byte. The problem is that the devil is in the details, and we're talking about thousands of pages of details here. Not to mention that now we get to make good on all the back-room deals that got cut to buy the necessary votes to pass this.

There were some absolutely crazy economic assumptions that went into "proving" that this plan could be implemented without sinking the US further into debt. Many of these assumptions aren't realistic, and many of the provisions won't kick in until the current crop of politicians are well out of office. As such, there is no accountability.

It remains to be seen what -really- has to happen to pay for this and I'm fairly confident that it won't be just the "rich" that get screwed to pay for this.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Ganelon »

Yeah, if the rich alone can pay for it, you'll have my expressed apology the next time this issue is brought up. Otherwise, I'll be gloating in a bittersweet manner that middle class folks are being forced to subsidize this monstrosity. So now it's illegal to not subscribe to health insurance? We'll see which side of the curve we're on in a few years...
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Skykid »

Why the pessimism? I have no doubt the establishment of such a 'socialist' action will no doubt prolong the crisis of national debt in the US and take some ironing out. Any dramatic amendment to an established system will cause rifts, especially with the financial beneficiaries.
But on the upside, the long term effects may be that people will live and not die, receive medical help instead of suffering, and not be killed off for profit by healthcare corporations.

Whether you like it or not, you've got it, and those $250,000 earners will be paying for it and still be living in nice houses with nice cars, and beyond those taxes, the pressure on the economy won't last forever. The US is strong enough and rich enough that it can handle change.

At least... that's what I assume. It could go into a total economical collapse and most of the population could end up broke - I just don't see that as being the most likely outcome.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by antron »

Ganelon wrote:So now it's illegal to not subscribe to health insurance? We'll see which side of the curve we're on in a few years...

it's illegal for an ER not to treat you either. been that way for a long time.
it's also illegal for you not to pay into Social Security and Medicare.

most of the pubic money for this comes from reducing what the Dems felt was overpayment in Medicare. AMA was on board.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Acid King »

antron wrote:
most of the pubic money...
Gross.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Never_Scurred »

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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by GaijinPunch »

it's illegal for an ER not to treat you either. been that way for a long time.
It's also not illegal for them to make you wait for hours on end. And you're usually made to wait by someone who is little more than a glorified receptionist. Awesome!

For those that think this will simply fuck us financially, I'm curious as to what you think the alternative would be? Stricter rules for insurance providers? Caps on malpractice suits? Nothing? Fair enough, as everyone has their own opinion, but we've dug ourselves into this fucked up ditch where you basically die if you don't have ass kicking insurance... how can we not expect something less than drastic to change it?

As a long-term expat, one thing that has really stuck with me over the years is that if I get cancer here, I might as well retire here unless I can somehow move to Europe or Canada. No US private carrier would touch me with a 10-foot pole. I realize I am in such a vast minority that I'd have better luck fighting for gaijin rights in Japan (which is futile, mind you) but I still pay US taxes and get zero short-term benefits, and only questionable long term. Hardly welcoming to go home to a system that accomodates you in no way, shape or form. All my European friends just "go home" plain and simple.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by brentsg »

Skykid wrote:Why the pessimism?
Whether you like it or not, you've got it, and those $250,000 earners will be paying for it and still be living in nice houses with nice cars, and beyond those taxes, the pressure on the economy won't last forever. The US is strong enough and rich enough that it can handle change.
It's realism.

The pitch that you have to be making over $250,000 per year to be negatively impacted by this bill is a myth.

For instance, one of the financial assumptions for this bill goes as such.. People who already have great health insurance, will now be deemed to have "Cadillac plans". The employer that provides this great insurance will now be taxed for providing it. Of course the assumption is that they'll pass this tax on to the employee. The employee won't want to pay the extra money for this great insurance (that they previously enjoyed) so now they will downgrade their coverage to something shittier. The employer will appreciate the savings from all this so much that they will pay their employees better wages. The Federal Government will now be able to benefit by taxing all these additional wages and they will utilize these additional funds to pay for the new health care bill.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Ganelon »

Penalize ridiculous tort for one; it's fine to have legitimate malpractice suits (e.g. doctor was drunk and cut a wayward nerve during surgery) but so many are inane (e.g. operation succeeded but with the accepted side effect of headaches and the patient is now suing for emotional trauma).

Honestly, we didn't need much help in the first place. According to various polls, 85% of Americans had health insurance already and around 90% were satisfied with their health insurance. Change was definitely needed to curb unreasonable cost growths in all manners of companies in medical care (and republicans deserve shame for not doing anything when they were in control, instead allowing costs to spiral out of control) but universal health care shouldn't have been included.

Anyway, health insurance is by no means equivalent to the protection of life. Everybody already agreed hospitals need to be limited to charge reasonable rates (not ridiculous $1000 shots). If that was covered, then it shouldn't cost that much to support folks without health insurance who are on their death throes. As for SS and Medicare, don't get me started. I already wrote a brief excerpt in the other topic on how I'm being penalized because others can't manage their savings. I think it's illegal for the government to force people to do all this.

And why am I so pessimistic? Because everything is based off ideal estimates. They don't know for sure what the cost will be. Politicians will promise funding under their expected projections that often times doesn't add up in the end. But as I said, I'm willing to wait and see what the results will be. Will millions of sick people with minor and major issues overwhelm doctors and suck up all the money out of this new program and force the middle class to pay? Or will life continue no problem as only a few needy folks decide to get care?

What's worse is that health insurers are now closely tied to the government and can't afford to go under unless the government system wants to absorb anybody insured under their plans as well. Will they eventually get even more subsidies than we provide to airlines? That's another danger that I hope we don't see, but again, I'm skeptical.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Ganelon, the push to reduce liability is partly being done on behalf of doctors (i.e. politically throwing a bone); it hasn't been an area adding appreciable cost to the system, no matter what Republicans charge (wrongly, as usual). It's fine to limit liability but we must remember that it won't add much savings, and we can't forget what it's meant to prevent. The real reason is to get rid of defensive medicine, which has been (as far as I can tell) a significant structural cost.
professor ganson wrote:Amazing stuff happening. Investing in the health of the workforce rather than starting pointless wars? A remarkable strategy! It's nice to have someone intelligent in charge again.
And it actually will reduce the deficit in coming years, and free up more of Americans' money to do things we have traditionally enjoyed rather than investing a greater and greater share in health care. Well, hopefully, that is. It's promised to be $950BN over ten years and reduces the deficit by some $138BN. Whether this is realistic remains to be seen; there are some rather credible voices out there criticizing it. What I will say on this point is that the US really does not have "crippling" debt (look at Greece, Iceland, and Portugal or Spain, can't remember which - all in varying degrees of danger of defaulting on debts - even the UK is worse off than the US on finances at the moment), and that this is still a worthwhile thing to do. We still ought to work within bounds, but if you ask me health care adds to the strength of the nation and is a worthwhile, even mandatory, investment - just as the public roads, education, and those subsidies farmers love so much.

States' rights and being forced to buy a service
The "zomg it's being farced on uzz" argument is puerile and ridiculous. People hated the public schooling movement too (SOCIALISMS actually that was before that became a rallying scare phrase in the US), but that wasn't the end of the country either (far from it actually). Nobody was forcing people to go to the hospital either, so maybe if the uninsured had been good free choicers and had suffered and died quietly instead of being a burden on the system we wouldn't have had to make this (admittedly tough) choice.

Let's not forget that the Attorneys General of 10 states (led by Florida and including Michigan) are filling a suit to challenge the constitutionality of this bill and to opt out of the system altogether. There may end up being states where you're not forced to buy insurance after all. So come to states with wonderful futures like Florida and Michigan...I love Florida and Michigan, but our public servants are doing a terrible job.

Medicare Advantage is pretty horribly cost ineffective and really does deserve to die in favor of better plans.

Cadillac Plans
The so-called "Cadillac Plans" being targeted were meant to be those high-cost plans that an individual would never actually pay for themselves, but which an employer - getting tax breaks to provide them - would pay for instead. These plans are adding to costs and allowing doctors and patients to schedule medically unnecessary procedures and visits without a second thought. They are a structural deficiency in the current health care system. The bottom line is that people ought to take more responsibility for the procedures they're having done, already at appreciable public expense. This January article in the NY Times rightly points out that there is an obvious potential harm in people not going to the doctor when they should in order to try to save money, and suggests a solution. I think we have to be realistic here; health care costs money and while people worldwide view it as a right, it has to be paid for, and people ought to think of alternatives to using doctor visits and prescriptions to "fix" everything. Hence the push for ways of rewarding healthy behavior - we shouldn't pretend that a good health care plan is a substitute for healthy living.

As I understand it, the "attack" on "Cadillac Plans" is merely a bid to make those benefits taxable. Woe!

Cost to the poor
As it stands today, you will get a subsidy to buy health care if you are making less than four times the poverty line. Starting out, penalties for not having health care are 1% of income or $95, whichever is higher. Later that amount may rise to 2.5% or $695 (iirc), so you really aren't forced to buy health care, but there is still a recognition that the uninsured cost the system money. Additionally, it must be remembered that in states like Massachusetts there are already folks going uninsured and buying health care when they need it (in fact I did this myself recently).

How to sink health care
Aside from the obvious Republican bids to derail these reforms, members of the insurance industry have been making out like bandits so far, so despite this widening their base, the various companies might dick around with rates and such. There has been talk about forcing competition across state lines and the like. They seem to have a clear motive for doing what the credit card companies did recently in response to pro-consumer legislation: hike costs and blame the government.

(Edit: added last point and a summary for "Cadillac Plans")
Last edited by Ed Oscuro on Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Ex-Cyber »

Ganelon wrote:According to various polls, 85% of Americans had health insurance already and around 90% were satisfied with their health insurance.
I'm guessing that most of the people who have actually needed major treatment are in that 10%... it's pretty easy to be satisfied with a service when you don't actually rely on it.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Ex-Cyber wrote:
Ganelon wrote:According to various polls, 85% of Americans had health insurance already and around 90% were satisfied with their health insurance.
I'm guessing that most of the people who have actually needed major treatment are in that 10%... it's pretty easy to be satisfied with a service when you don't actually rely on it.
It's also worth pointing out that some people are going insane imagining that the new legislation will somehow magically strip away their insurance (as I pointed out two posts ago - those comments were from a real-life "conversation" I had a week or so ago). People don't like the unknown, and the Republicans have been able to use a bit of the media vacuum to sow fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

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According to various polls, 85% of Americans had health insurance already and around 90% were satisfied with their health insurance.
How people would answer a question like that really depends on what situation it's being posed in, so I'm curious how the poll was conducted. If someone walks up to you on the street and asks you if you like your phone service, you say yes, right? Because you can't be arsed and based on past experiences you're expecting a sales pitch if you say no. And you use your phone every day, compared to the chances in your life you'll get to weigh the pro/cons of what care you're really paying for. So I wouldn't hold it against somebody if they were complacent about what they had and ignorant about how it works compared to other places in the world.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by BryanM »

Acid King wrote:No one's demanding anything.
I'm actually demanding 9600 tacos from the Federal Government.

Why? Because I have nothing against people for having tans, > 9000 tacos is how much of my share has been spent on the wars against people who have tans.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

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Tacos as reparations for the Banana Wars? Why not bananas?
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by GaijinPunch »

Ganelon wrote:Penalize ridiculous tort for one; it's fine to have legitimate malpractice suits (e.g. doctor was drunk and cut a wayward nerve during surgery) but so many are inane (e.g. operation succeeded but with the accepted side effect of headaches and the patient is now suing for emotional trauma).
Taking away an American's ability to sue? You might as well take away their hands.

Honestly, we didn't need much help in the first place. According to various polls, 85% of Americans had health insurance already and around 90% were satisfied with their health insurance.
1: I agree w/ that in theory, but nobody's going to be dissatisfied w/ their coverage until something really bad happens.
2: What about the 15% that don't have insurance of 10% that aren't happy w/ theirs? That's a large percent of the population...25%. I had a recent debate about the judicial system in Japan. A couple of European friends of mine thought it was utopia b/c it was non-intrusive to 95% o the population (which is probably true). I'd say 4.8% of the other 5% are probably guilty, but there's enough cases of the remainder that will make you sick. If you're caught in the system here, you are so fucked you might well just cut a deal.

a) False arrest does happen, and the chances of you losing your job while you're being incarcerated (only) for 23 days are substantial. Family might not stick around either.
b) Divorce is sticky here. There is no such thing as joint custody, and child support is amazingly cheap.
I won't get into wales and dolphins.

I'll try not to go off on a tangent, but the downside for those people is 3rd world style. (Google "Japan Hague Convention"). While I tip my hat to America's attempts at checks & balances (America just throws the fucking honor system out the door and requires everything in writing which is good). I couldn't sleep at night saying that either system didn't need help though, and they are both retarded in the same way: they ignore systems that work across the world.
Anyway, health insurance is by no means equivalent to the protection of life. Everybody already agreed hospitals need to be limited to charge reasonable rates (not ridiculous $1000 shots).
Indeed, ridiculous, but until they can curb malpractice, I wouldn't expect that.

The funny thing is though, and I'll finish for the day on this, I don't know anyone that bitches about national health care except people t hat live in a country w/o national health care.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Ed Oscuro »

BryanM wrote:[...] the wars against people who have tans.
Don't tell Silvio Berlusconi, he'd think we were fighting President Obama.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Skykid »

GaijinPunch wrote: The funny thing is though, and I'll finish for the day on this, I don't know anyone that bitches about national health care except people that live in a country w/o national health care.
Yeah, and there aren't many of those left in the Western world. The US healthcare system is a system of capitalism - that's why it doesn't work for everyone. The reform of such a system is worth all of the difficulties in implementing it. The fact that Obama has introduced the policy with a view to tax higher earners is a feat in itself - in the UK we all pay taxes regardless of our wage.
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Mero »

Skykid wrote:[ in the UK we all pay taxes regardless of our wage.
Unless you're a non-dom a la Lord Ashcroft :wink:

Taxes are too high over here :(
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Re: Obamas stake to get socialistic NHS system in the US!

Post by Skykid »

Mero wrote:
Skykid wrote:[ in the UK we all pay taxes regardless of our wage.
Unless you're a non-dom a la Lord Ashcroft :wink:

Taxes are too high over here :(
I've always felt the same, but after seeing the differences between America's middle class and the UK's working class I'm starting to have a less venemous view of the policies of the little grey country. It certainly doesn't require you to live on a system of credit (beyond mortages) if you're smart enough not to squander your income.
That said, we don't get much for our money in terms of efficiency and housing...
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