XRGB-3

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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

also work with composite, s-video and component sources (through the breakout box)
indeed it does.
but you mentioned it doesn't work with 240p material
That's right, it doesn't work with 240p material, but there's no sense to try it 240p material, since rotated 240p material (only few games come to mind like Strikers 1945 1&2 on PSX or Saturn in Yoko) it's arcade-perfect anyway, so it's a lost cause.
Doesn't this mean that the XRGB-3 in B1 mode (and anything that's been connected to it whether console/PCB/ArcadeVGA) would be out of the picture for vertical use?
once a signal is run through the XRGB, it's no longer 240p.
Or would I need to then shut off the scanline emulation on the XRGB-3 and introduce something to upscale from 240p to an acceptable resolution (probably 720p since it's an even multiple) which the Intensity could then overlay without lag?
Yes, but I don't really follow you here. I mean, when you talk about vertical use, you mean Yoko, right ? As soon as you move to Tate, you're back to horizontal scanlines again which the XRGB handles fine anyway.
Does this also I would need to run any top-down games in yoko rather than attempting to rotate a tate image via a capture card?
????
Sorry for the continued questions.
I've lost you somewhere halfway through. Could you try to give me a specific example (game, system, orientation of the game and of the TV) and how you'd like to play it ? Would make things easier.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Niraflen »

That's right, it doesn't work with 240p material, but there's no sense to try it 240p material, since rotated 240p material (only few games come to mind like Strikers 1945 1&2 on PSX or Saturn in Yoko) it's arcade-perfect anyway, so it's a lost cause.
Ah, is it? I didn't realize that, and I might be missing a point here. I'll bring this up in an example later in hopes of clarifying it.
Doesn't this mean that the XRGB-3 in B1 mode (and anything that's been connected to it whether console/PCB/ArcadeVGA) would be out of the picture for vertical use?
once a signal is run through the XRGB, it's no longer 240p.
Right here I've probably misunderstood something about how the XRGB-3 outputs its video in B1 mode, probably because of the QVGA statement mentioned in the wiki. I take it this is really just 640x480 (linedoubled 320x240) with a 60Hz refresh? This explains to me why the XRGB-3 output has one real-line one emulated scan-line with a 240p input. Alright, from there:
Yes, but I don't really follow you here. I mean, when you talk about vertical use, you mean Yoko, right ? As soon as you move to Tate, you're back to horizontal scanlines again which the XRGB handles fine anyway.
There are two possibilities I'm talking about here.

The first case is just getting the vertical scanlines in a yoko game on a horizontal monitor. You mentioned this is mostly moot above, again I'll touch on it briefly below.

The second case, and the one I'm really trying to figure out, is where we take the tate image (with the horizontal scanlines inserted by the XRGB-3) and then essentially rotating the video output instead of the monitor itself to get a vertical image (and since the scanlines are simulated by the XRGB-3, the horizontal scanlines would just be transposed to vertical along with the rest of the image). This is what was done in the Yokotate article if I understand correctly (without scanlines mind you). In that article a tate image was input into the Holo3Dgraph, and using a driver-level function it was all rotated while maintaining scale into yoko mode. This is what I want to do with the output of the XRGB-3 in B0, but at least with a Holo3DGraph I can't do this since it only takes interlaced inputs. If there is some external voice or PC capture card that can do this that would be fantastic.
Does this also I would need to run any top-down games in yoko rather than attempting to rotate a tate image via a capture card?
????
Yeah, that's my reaction too and I'm the one who wrote it. Let's drop this statement, I think I just explained the dilemma much more clearly above.
I've lost you somewhere halfway through. Could you try to give me a specific example (game, system, orientation of the game and of the TV) and how you'd like to play it ? Would make things easier.
Hopefully I just explained the concept more clearly, so now I think I can support it with some examples.:

Case #1 (yoko case): This could be any game that is oriented in yoko but which originally would have been tate. (For example, the Strikers 1945 in arcade is tate but the home version is yoko. To help render it to resemble its original arcade appearance as much as possible, I want to create vertical scanlines.) *** Though you mentioned above this is a lost cause? I guess I can understand this since a yoko mode is designed for a horizontal display. We can just skip this one if needed because what I'm really interested in is the next example.

Case #2 (tate case): This could be any game that is output as tate, but where I'd like to rotate the image (and by extension the emulated scanlines of the XRGB-3) instead of the monitor to get the proper scanlined apperance as with a vertically oriented monitor (i.e.: what was presented as yokotate). Let's use a game output from MAME (and the ArcadeVGA) as an example. Any vertically oriented game would do, whether a top-down shooter like Gunbird or a classic like Donkey Kong. Allowing MAME to 'tate' the output of such a game will let it display full screen on a vertically oriented monitor. This image is now output to the XRGB-3 so that it correctly scales/line-doubles the game for display on a modern monitor via a VGA connection while adding CRT-like scanlines. If I could rotate the monitor itself I'd be done at this step, but the monitor is too big so instead I'd like to rotate the output image (including the fake scanlines) instead. How would I proceed from here? As a variation on this case we could use a PS2-connected shooter like ESPGaluda (in tate mode), but I suppose I'm more interested in the MAME case since it would also apply to Jamma/PCB-connected systems.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

The second case, and the one I'm really trying to figure out, is where we take the tate image (with the horizontal scanlines inserted by the XRGB-3) and then essentially rotating the video output instead of the monitor itself
you would need either a 480p capture card for this. Maybe something like the Canopus Pegasus, but I've never seen it nor know I anybody who's tried that. A Holo3DGraph along with HD-add-on-card would probably work as well, but it's a very hard to handle in general and I would not recommend it. Easier way would be to take a BMD Intensity plus a 480p to 720p scaling device beforehand. Most processors will do this, even older ones, so it's not this much of a cost factor.
Case #1 (yoko case): This could be any game that is oriented in yoko but which originally would have been tate. (For example, the Strikers 1945 in arcade is tate but the home version is yoko....
you have to differentiate between games running in 240p Yoko and those running in 480i yoko. Every PS2, Cube, XBox game will run in 480i. This includes Games like ESPGaluda (which runs in 240p only when in tate), Mushimesama, all the Taito Collections, the Shikigami series and so on... Easiest way: 480i into the Blackmagic, scanline overlay, 480i out to the XRGB (or any other videoprocessor). Then there are a handful of games running in 240p yoko, most obiously a handful of PS1 and Saturn Games. The problem with those is that (A) the XRGB would still apply horizontal scanlines and (B) the Blackmagic cards won't take 240p. You can run through a linedoubler (HDBoxPro) and a scan converter (Emotia) to convert 240p to 480i, but hey....

For 480i you need the SD keying function on the BMD cards. This is available on all BMD products. For 720p you need the HD keyer which is only available on a few expensive BMD solutions.
Case #2 (tate case):.....
as mentioned above, you something which can input 480p on a PC and properly scale it. Most likely hard to find and very expensive. The only proper way I could imagine would be something like this:

Source -> XRGB3 -> 480p with hardcoded scanlines -> Edge to scale to 720p or 1080i -> PC with HD capture card for rotation.

All this processing seems kinda silly, especially when you talk about MAME. There is no (and I stress this: ABSOLUTELY no) reason to use an ArcadeVGA on a LCD display. MAME will do pixel-perfect scalines just like the XRGB in DirectDraw mode and take care of the rotation for you as well.....

PS: Blackmagic was released the SDK to the public, so in theory, anyone fit in Visual C++ should be able to programm a little viewing app which would allow rotating and scanline overlay in the same process.... Anybody here up to it ? ;)
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Strider77
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Strider77 »

Fudoh, have you see the XRGB3 outputting low res in person?
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

no, but when RGB32E states that it looks horrible and it's usable in laggy B0 mode only, I wouldn't know why to bother with it...
Niraflen
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Niraflen »

Fudoh,

Thanks for all the information, that gives me a good understanding of what the options are (and just how overly involved they are for this).

About MAME without the ArcadeVGA, I know older versions of MAME had a scanline function available with directdraw, but newer versions use the same PNG overlays for directdraw as for d3d. I've tried various recommendations for applying the overlays but the examples always use 320x240 games; when I try it with any non-4:3 games (which I want scaled to the 4:3 ratio), I either (1) get a horrible mess from the scanline overlays when I allow directdraw to use hardware stretching to fill the screen, or (2) when I allow it to scale uniformly and use black borders, it ignores my "force 4:3 aspect ratio" and "keep aspect ratio" settings and renders exactly the resolution of the game (+ the value of pre-scale). This is on Win7; I don't know about other platforms. It's part of the reason I was looking into the ArcadeVGA in the first place.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

I'm in the midst of setting up a new MAME machine. Ask me again about the scanlines in a few weeks from now. It's probably really been some time since I last used DirectDraw scanlines (maybe MAME .112), but honestly, only a bunch of interesting games have been added since, so I'd stick with the old version for the majority of games and use a newer one for the few games added since.

Nevertheless, even if the same PNGs are rendered with DDraw, they should still be rendered over the games BEFORE scaling. This would be the major difference between DD and D3D. Has this really changed ?

..... getting probably of bit too OT now ......
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Strider77
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Strider77 »

it's usable in laggy B0 mode only
I didn't realize that was the case.... no offense
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

didn't realize that was the case.... no offense
none taken ;) I really think that this option was only added because it was requested by a few people using classic japanese PC monitors. It's been poorly implemented. What you're looking for is a real pass-through option. A RGB switching matrix, maybe 4 inputs and 2 outputs (one into the XRGB-3 and one passing by) would be a suited setup for you...
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darthcloud
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by darthcloud »

Fudoh wrote:
didn't realize that was the case.... no offense
none taken ;) I really think that this option was only added because it was requested by a few people using classic japanese PC monitors. It's been poorly implemented. What you're looking for is a real pass-through option. A RGB switching matrix, maybe 4 inputs and 2 outputs (one into the XRGB-3 and one passing by) would be a suited setup for you...
I'm curently using a Extron MVX 8x4 matrix and it work pretty well. I have one output going to my D2 RGB in on xrgb, another one on the VGA port of my TV, one going to D1 YUV input of the xrgb and the last one on a YUV input of my TV.

The xrgb VGA output is connected on one mvx input, much like a loopback setup.

It work pretty well and it allow me to bypass the xrgb for 480p signal, and route everything else into xrgb.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by evil_ash_xero »

The "digital out" on the back, i'm guessing is some sort of DVI output(but i'm not sure what kind of cord I would need)...does this give you a much better picture than the analog out?
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

The "digital out" on the back, i'm guessing is some sort of DVI output(but i'm not sure what kind of cord I would need)...does this give you a much better picture than the analog out?
about the same quality. If it's better, than it's mainly your display. Only works in B0, not in B1, so this might be a dealbreaker already.
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evil_ash_xero
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Fudoh wrote:
The "digital out" on the back, i'm guessing is some sort of DVI output(but i'm not sure what kind of cord I would need)...does this give you a much better picture than the analog out?
about the same quality. If it's better, than it's mainly your display. Only works in B0, not in B1, so this might be a dealbreaker already.
Yeah, that is a dealbreaker for me.
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Elixir
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Elixir »

Got a bit of a problem here. I bought some PS2 SCART cables off Play-Asia and, after plugging them into my XRGB2+, they're giving me an unclear and unplayable wavy signal. I can still see the picture, but it's all distorted and I can't do anything with it. I was wondering if there was anyone who knew of a solution to this.

Changing it from RGB to YPbPr in the settings doesn't seem to do anything either, it's still the same.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

I'm quite sure that PA only sells Scart cables with european RGB layout. If you've plugged on of those into your XRGB, you've most likely blown your RGB input. Get a Scart to J21 adapter before you try it again.
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Elixir
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Elixir »

Nevermind, crisis avoided. I set it to YPbPr instead and used a component to scart adapter. Looks perfectly fine now. That frees up my D-Terminal for my Wii then.
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Strider77
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Strider77 »

I want my english firmware
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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akumajo
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by akumajo »

Strider77 wrote:I want my english firmware
firmware is ready now, Micomsoft release it when then want to ...
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Strider77
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Strider77 »

looking forward to it.
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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akumajo
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by akumajo »

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em0ti0n
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by em0ti0n »

akumajo wrote:firmware is out
enjoy

http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb-3_download.htm
thanks :twisted:
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Konsolkongen »

I have flashed and so far it works really well :D Actually took me a bit longer to set up since i'm used to the Japanese menus :p This is gonna be a great help to those new to the XRGB-3. Also pretty cool that they link to the Wiki we made ;)
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RGB32E
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by RGB32E »

Ugg... I can't find a USB A-B cable to update the FW to English! I'm looking forward to the FW update. It looks like it's just the OSD, none of the other binaries changed... 1080p fix next? :D
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Konsolkongen »

It's still v 2.12 so i don't expect they changed anything else?
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akumajo
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by akumajo »

first step was english firmware (2.12), step two (2.1x) is in progress (fixes) but i cant say when/if they release it.
i will let you know guys if something is coming... (as a did since i started the translation project)

also, i dont have much time currently to update wiki but last time i checked everything was fine :wink:

WINIP new version (japanese) : http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/WINinPViewerV2.10.zip (add 1080p support)
XRGB3 2.12 english firmware : http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb3_update ... v2_12e.exe
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evil_ash_xero
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by evil_ash_xero »

OK, i'm having a bit of a problem. I seem to be able to get everything on PS1, Saturn, and 3D PS2 games going well, but I have a problem with a couple of sprite based games for PS2.

Mainly Disgaea 2, Metal Slug 3, and ESPGaluda. It seems like when I move the backgrounds aren't quite stable. In Disgaea 2, the backgrounds are stable, but when I move the characters all get more jaggy, and as soon as I stop they turn smooth. I have a bit of this problem in Gradius V also. My biggest problem is with Metal Slug 3, where the background almost seems as if it's tearing. I loaded up my Metal Slug collection for PC, and it had a bit of this problem also, but not quite as pronounced. Any settings I should fiddle with, now that I have the English Firmware and am not totally lost?
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Artemio
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Artemio »

Are you using B0 or B1? Any specifics? I've used ESPGaluda from those and have never had any issues, I use B1 though.
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evil_ash_xero
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Yes, i'm using B1.

Another question I have for you guys is, i'm using the RGB to D Terminal hookup and i'm getting kinda like faint horizontal lines. It almost looks like interference. If I turn the brightness down, it fades away some. I tried using a different PS2, and it did the same thing. It also did this on my HD CRT, but not as noticable. I'm using Monster RGB cables. I went ahead and ordered the official Sony brand cables.

Any one else have any experience with this problem?
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darthcloud
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by darthcloud »

evil_ash_xero wrote:Yes, i'm using B1.

Another question I have for you guys is, i'm using the RGB to D Terminal hookup and i'm getting kinda like faint horizontal lines. It almost looks like interference. If I turn the brightness down, it fades away some. I tried using a different PS2, and it did the same thing. It also did this on my HD CRT, but not as noticable. I'm using Monster RGB cables. I went ahead and ordered the official Sony brand cables.

Any one else have any experience with this problem?
This is a common issue for PS2 using component video. You will got the same result with either official Sony cable (D-terminal or component through RCA). You can try to eliminated some noise by lowering the A/D setting in the advance menu (last one, first setting)

An easy way to solve this is to get an official PS1 SCPH-1050 RGB21 cable.

I'm using this cable and I get almost no noise at all when my PS2 output is set to Component and Game in is set to YUV.

When both PS2 and XRGB are set to RGB I don't see any noise. :D
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evil_ash_xero
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by evil_ash_xero »

That actually did reduce the noise some.


OK, I can't get the colors right on this thing for nothing. Can someone here(who is very please with their colors) go ahead and give me your numbers for brightness, black level, rbg gains, and all that stuff?

Everything on mine looks like it's glowing or oversaturated. The whites are glowing white, and it's hard to make detail out in things. Obviously I have no idea what i'm doing.

Numbers please!
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