What makes a shmup good?

[Ravicious]

As a game developer I'd like to hear your thoughts...


What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

What are the worst features?

What do you like best about shmups in general?

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?

[Udderdude]

I'm just going to answer the only question that needs answering here, mr. Going to develop a shmup.

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

More appealing to dumbasses, less appealing to people who actually play shmups.

Edit: I like shmups like this http://macrochan.org/images/Q/2/Q2QDMC7 ... IE6HQ.jpeg

[gs68]

How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?

i dun play shmups yo, they're too short, like, all games should be 99 hours long

[EinhanderZwei]

What are the worst features?

THIS: http://www.moeside.net/weblog/wp-conten ... n_loli.jpg

[Radiant Cinnabun]

What got me into shmups initially and is still important for me are the bosses. I love the big, wild bosses. They don't have to fill the screen, but they should be creative and weird. Gradius has some of the best, and that includes the pushover final bosses. Just look at the awesome variation on that theme that they use in Gradius V.

Speaking of GV, I also like the shmups potential for in-game storytelling. There's the time travel in that one, then in things like R-Type Final, you've got stuff going on in the background (like the Bydo-fied version of the R9 from the future that flies by you at the beginning of the first stage) or all the little people running around in Gunbird, including your three nemeses.

Finally, the environments and visual appeal. This is huge for me and a reason I don't care for bullet hell. It may be silly, but I'm partly in it to take in all the sights, from the environments to the enemies I'm fighting. I don't want to have to glaze my eyes over and become a zen master to survive simply because then I can't enjoy the surroundings.

[THE]

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

Please don't forget to include an energy bar and inertia for the player ship like you know it from Star Trek.
RPG elements are always awesome too.

You should include characters for the following demographics too:

straight nerd: big boobed anime babe
pedo nerd: loli
homo pedo nerd: trap loli

If you have further questions please call the Euroshmup squad.

[BIL]

What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

-Pacing. Minimise any and all dead gameplay time. Player should always be doing something interesting or rewarding; floating along picking off stray popcorn, or sitting in place wiping out enemies before they appear, is no good.

Cutscenes shoud be minimal if present, and always skippable. I love atmospheric games, and always appreciate an evocative shooter... but in this genre it has to accentuate the gameplay, not take the focus away from it.

-Performance focus. The shooters I come back to are the ones with the highest performance ceilings; I want to feel there's always something I can improve on. The better I play, the more challenging the game should get; risk vs reward. Merely surviving to the end credits should be the tip of the iceberg.

What are the worst features?

Tedium, and / or slow pacing.

What do you like best about shmups in general?

Their emphasis on skilled performance in the classic 2D format. Blowing stuff up is certainly a nice feature, but I can do that in other genres. I like being able to flip a shooter on and instantly feel its intensity.

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

-Cutscenes: if brief and fully skippable, they can be nice. Border Down handles this perfectly. More ambitious scenes should be saved for intros and endings. Long, unskippable cutscenes (Gradius V stage 7) = bad.

-Shops: not fond of them; I prefer a shooter to give me a base set of abilities, which I can learn to exploit.

-Appearance: immaterial. If it's not at the expense of the core game, I'm fine with it, but I'd never consider it a priority.

-Stat upgrades: if the player always starts from the same base and upgrades via performance (Mars Matrix, Psyvariar), I can appreciate this.

How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?

I'm happy to put in hundreds of hours, if the gameplay is rewarding. As long as I can improve in some way I'll keep coming back.

This is probably the biggest divide between shooter fans and non-fans. Hardcore players will generally derive longetivity from perfecting their performance. Anyone not interested in that will wonder what the attraction of a thirty minute game with unlimited continues is.

[EinhanderZwei]

What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

R-Type: Force
X-Multiply: Tentacles
Thunder Force: CRAWs (having unique attacks + ability to fire backwards)
16-bit Star Soldiers: Weapon upgrades adding health
DonPachi: Narrator
Gate of Thunder: Bonuses provided by supply ship rather than shooting capsules
Spriggan: On-the-fly customizable arsenal (and a HUGE one)
Zanac: Dynamic difficulty
Einhander: Gunpods (altering the angle and type of attacks, lightsaber)
Raiden: Tanks 'decapitation'

...and so on, and so on...

What are the worst features?

Loli girls
Bullets/energy balls looking like anything but bullets/energy balls
Zero stage background interactivity

What do you like best about shmups in general?

Visual designs, creative levels, intense gameplay, music

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

YES! It would be original. When most of the shmups nowadays are Touhou clones, you understand the true price of originality

How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?

Depending on the game itself. I can play Soldier Blade for 5+ hrs, and then credit-feed through ESP RaDe in 30 mins

[Jockel]

Fuck customization, shops and upgradeable stats!
+ RPG elements are always just an excuse for saying "you're starting out with less power than you normally would and now you have to play for hours to compensate and reach a normal-powered ship"
Also fuck cutscenes and all that shit, people play shmups to have instant fun and not watch some random shit they don't care about.

To say it short and simple: stay away from anything that distracts the gamer from the actual game!
Blast Works for Wii for example has a tons of extra features and even an editor... too bad that the actual gameplay mechanics suck ass.

[Rozyrg]

I've found I really value a solid first level. Catchy music (even if it's the best in the game), fun variety of enemies, tough but not punishing difficulty.. all keeping you coming back for more.

Also, cute miniature tanks... I love those.

[EinhanderZwei]

To say it short and simple: stay away from anything that distracts the gamer from the actual game!

Then what about, say, Metal Gear Solid? If we remove inventory, cutscenes, seriously developed story and anything that distracts from the game, we'll get Splinter Cell. Fuck Splinter Cell

[BIL]

Then what about, say, Metal Gear Solid?

What about it? We're discussing shooters, not action / adventure games. What's good for one genre isn't necessarily good for another.

[EinhanderZwei]

Then what about, say, Metal Gear Solid?

What about it? We're discussing shooters, not action / adventure games. What's good for one genre isn't necessarily good for another.

I do not know any game that was made worse by adding complex storyline and memorable characters. No one wants to dare making something radical, and this makes me sad

[Jockel]

Yeah, let's make a Pacman game with 8 hours worth of cutscenes.

That's not radical, that's SHIT.
Do you even play for score?

[EinhanderZwei]

Yeah, let's make a Pacman game with 8 hours worth of cutscenes.
That's not radical, that's SHIT.

Pacman with 8 hrs worth of cutscenes? Hmm, where'd I see that... Oh yeah, Zone Of The Enders 2. I can hardly call it shit, honestly

Do you even play for score?

No. I do not

[BIL]

I do not know any game that was made worse by adding complex storyline and memorable characters. No one wants to dare making something radical, and this makes me sad

It's not the mere presence of a story and characters that would be a problem. It would be the shoehorning of these things into an otherwise focused shooter and destroying the game's flow.

Yeah, I do think something like Raiden DX or Battle Garegga would only lose out by having cutscenes tacked on for no particular reason. If a shooter's gameplay sucks or is boring in some way, maybe they'd have a purpose.

[EinhanderZwei]

Yeah, I do think something like Raiden DX or Battle Garegga would only lose out by having cutscenes tacked on for no particular reason. If a shooter's gameplay sucks or is boring in some way, maybe they'd have a purpose.

But what if the reason exists?

[BIL]

If someone would honestly knock either of those games, or any other similarly deep shooter, for lacking cutscenes... well, I don't think I'd be interested in their "reasons" for including them either way.

At that point it's just a difference in ideals. No amount of window-dressing is going to make me play a dull shooter. And if the shooter plays well enough to interest me in the first place, I'm not going to want that window-dressing in the first place.

[Jockel]

Do you even play for score?

No. I do not

OK there we have the problem.
You know, if you play for score, you need to practice A LOT.
Imagine sinking ~130 hours into a single shoot em up without credit feeding.
Imagine everytime you start your credit you'd have to watch a stupid cutscene that gets boring after the first two times you saw it.

[EinhanderZwei]

If someone would honestly knock either of those games, or any other similarly deep shooter, for lacking cutscenes... well, I don't think I'd be interested in their "reasons" for including them either way.

At that point it's just a difference in ideals. No amount of window-dressing is going to make me play a dull shooter. And if the shooter plays well enough to interest me in the first place, I'm not going to want that window-dressing in the first place.

There was a pretty illustrating dialogue some time ago when my friend tried playing Thexder Neo...

Me: So did you like it?
Him: No, I just can't get it
Me: Get what?
Him: WHY is he inside this base or whatever it is? Did he get from the outside or teleported? Is there a mastermind within this base? What has he done to protagonist, so he is here? I can't, I just can't play without it
Me: *total silence and shocked facial expression*

You know, if you play for score, you need to practice A LOT.

You know, practice is needed in every game of every genre. I treat shmups like all other genre and measure them by the same units. I want my disbelief to be worth being suspended. And honestly, I think that I'm not the only one

[clp]

What makes a shmup good?

Shinobu yagawa .

[Jockel]

@EinhänderZwei: What's the most important thing in a shmup?
The core gameplay mechanics have to work and have to be FUN.
I don't see the fun in watching pointless cutscenes.
Becuz shumps r all about teh gameplay!1111111one

[BIL]

There was a pretty illustrating dialogue some time ago when my friend tried playing Thexder Neo...

Me: So did you like it?
Him: No, I just can't get it
Me: Get what?
Him: WHY is he inside this base or whatever it is? Did he get from the outside or teleported? Is there a mastermind within this base? What has he done to protagonist, so he is here? I can't, I just can't play without it
Me: *total silence and shocked facial expression*

Is your friend into shooters in the first place, though? If someone will reject a shooter for a lack of storytelling, would they have actually spent the time developing their skill at it anyway, once they've seen the story a dozen times over? That's not the mentality this genre's most respected games cater to. Frankly I don't think it's any big loss.

I treat shmups like all other genre and measure them by the same units. I want my disbelief to be worth being suspended. And honestly, I think that I'm not the only one

I think that's short-sighted, and I'm by no means a "screw everything but gameplay" type. Different genres naturally rely more on different aspects of gaming.

[Klatrymadon]

Exactly. The last thing this genre needs is to develop literary and cinematic pretenses. Besides, games should be focussing on the storytelling methods that are only achievable in this medium, if they actually want to go somewhere as a burgeoning art form*. Games that make excessive use of cutscenes are admitting (quite incorrectly) that all games are capable of is riding on the coat-tails of higher forms of art and culture.

*But then I'm a Super Metroid onanist, so I would say that.

[ZOM]

What makes a shmup good?

Shinobu yagawa .

/thread

[Dragoforce]

Do you even play for score?

No. I do not

To say it short and simple: stay away from anything that distracts the gamer from the actual game!

Then what about, say, Metal Gear Solid? If we remove inventory, cutscenes, seriously developed story and anything that distracts from the game, we'll get Splinter Cell. Fuck Splinter Cell

then credit-feed through ESP RaDe in 30 mins

First of all, do not listen to this man^

Gameplay is king. Nobody cares about storytelling in a shmup. I think most people would agree that thins such as "cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats" are by far the worst features in shmups. Explore the term "Euroshmup" a little and you will understand.

If you don't have an intresting and challenging scoring system you have nothing. I prefer scoring system that are easy to understand yet hard to master. Take for example the bell juggling in the Twinbee and Parodius games, Kaukesi mode in Espgaluda or the medal chaining found in Raiden Fighters and Raizing games (alongside other scoring tricks in the latter two) Raiden Fighters Jet is perhaps my favorite example when it comes to scoring systems. We have the medal and messaging chaining, bullet graizing and tons and tons of secrets.

Music, graphics, design and so on are nice. But everything starts with fun and working scoring system.

[Klatrymadon]

Also, as posting in the tone of a snarky asshole seems to be the modus operandi around here, I'll allow myself this minor indulgence: anybody who thinks shooters have anything to learn from Metal Gear I'd Rather Be Dead Solid has completely missed the entire fucking point of the fucking things.

[nullpointer]

lol at the sarcasm bonus wave...

But srsly, make a gameplay mechanic that is fun to play but deep in terms of allowing risk/reward. Replay is key in shmups imo, if you dont want to replay it then it is just a 30min game... Ikaruga has a beatiful color switch mechanic that blows peoples minds when they first play it, they might shy away from its difficulty or tackle it head on, but generally they appreciate the innovation and originality of its design. If you can make people feel rewarded for playing the way the game 'wants' you to play (ie for score) then you are on the right lines.... I think shikigami does this, with the bullet scraping visually powering you up and giving you all those 8x hits onscreen.

And cutscenes,rpg etc not my cup of tea, if you go down those lines you will be making a different sort of game imo, it will still be a shump of some sort, but not one that focusses on its established core mechanics.. Some euroshmups Im sure do very well and have their fans too...

[THE]

First of all, do not listen to this man^

He has a reference to Einhänder in his nick. No one with a sane taste and understanding in shmups would give a fuck what a person like this thinks about shmups.
Einhänder is a perfect example of how to not do a shmup. I fell a sleep while alone thinking of this game. Even Gradius V is more interesting...

[TMR]

As a game developer I'd like to hear your thoughts...

i'm not entirely sure that's a good idea before the caffeine has kicked in fully but... okay. How'd you know i was a game developer anyway? =-)

What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

Ooh, that's a tough one... there's the non-specific stuff like the power-up system from the Gradius series or the Force (i've never understood why they don't just build the fighter around the thing...? =-) and if the Ikaruga-style polarity system is added to EinhanderZwei's answer for this question that pretty much covers the bases as far as the guns go.

Hidden bonuses are good an' all, leaving stuff squirreled away for people to find gives them another reason to go back for another game whilst they stick the nose of the ship into dark places. Multiple difficulty levels are a good feature for anything that'll be going out to the unwashed masses, online scores are nice too as long as offline scores aren't neglected and there need to be tables for each difficulty (oh, and think through how the name is entered, long names with the "roll through the character set using the joystick" entry systems are a pain in the bum, especially if the game doesn't remember the last name entered) - but it does require a good, varied scoring mechanic too.

What are the worst features?

Inertial controls, bad difficulty balance to the point where continues are almost a requirement, cheaty deaths (laser beams appearing without warning, bosses zooming forwards and eating the player, anything instantly fatal that isn't forewarned essentially), overly complicated weapon or powering up systems that take attention away from the aliens that need a kicking, large player hitboxes (especially with inertial controls) and energy gauges used to paper over the issues generated by the rest of this list. i've always found the term "Euroshmup" rather offensive personally, but look around this forum for a definition and avoid those features like the plague.

Oh, and at the moment add dance music soundtracks, glowing vector effects, low resolution "retro-styled" graphics or just drawing everything in MS Paint just because those looks are being done to feckin' death right now and mostly rather badly too.

What do you like best about shmups in general?

Being able to shoot stuff, perhaps having fun weaponry to play with (although that's not a necessity), not having to wait much longer than a swig of coffee between stages and seeing the game over message whilst feeing slightly drained physically and holding a score that looks like a telephone number with an international dialling code!

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

Cutscenes get in the way of the action and can rapidly become a hideous annoyance since the average shoot 'em up is a relatively short game and the same scenes therefore go past on a regular basis (if they can be skipped and there isn't a large delay between stages due to cutscene loading, i can possibly live with them). Shops can be done reasonably well but need to be quick and easy to use so again they don't clog the action up and please don't insist that i haggle with the shopkeeper or have to worry about selling weapons to get bigger ones.

Pimping the ship... we-ell, i'd probably fiddle with it a couple of times to get a nice colour scheme and then just stick with that - as long as i'm not forced through the customisation screen every game it won't become annoying, but at the same time i'd really not call it a selling point and would actively move away from a game if customising was a necessity - i got into Need For Speed Underground a while back and came up with what i thought was a classy-looking car, only to find that i couldn't progress in the damned game unless i stuck ugly vinyls all over it. Upgradeable stats... just say no, seriously.

How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?

Depends on the game, so far i've put seven or eight hours into Genetos since it's release late 2009 and i'm literally scared to think how much time Io on the C64 has taken off me over the years... that said, i can find hours of entertainment in simple games that most people wouldn't bother with, Galax-I-Birds on the C64 again for example keeps me amused for ages!