XRGB-3

[Fudoh]

If I wanted to play games with scanlines

it's a phase Lumagen just announced a Gamemode for their Radiance series, so I'm looking at a single-processor setup on the long run and it probably will be one without a scanline function - so I enjoy it while it lasts.

I'd use a CRT!

But you'd still need the UVC. The 360 cannot output 240p signals, so you cannot play Raiden Fighters Aces, Death Smiles, DDP or Futari with scanlines on a CRT. Also many originally low-res DC games, e.g. Mars Matrix only display 480i on a CRT when connected directly in RGBs.

[RGB32E]

I think there are even more factors. I have an arcade monitor in my cabinet, and can plug the consoles as well. But the factors that make me want to use my setup are: play from my sofa, high quality audio and the size of the TV.

I used to have a Loewe 38" CRT TV, but now it is a 46" LCD. Playing in in with scanlines gives me the look I want with the audio I want and the rest of the factors.

The use of scanlines in my case is to match the look in crt or my arcade monitor (slighter there) and also having a closer to the original image, having the extra lines from the line doubling looks nice but I rather not have those "unexistant" lines shown.

I certainly agree with you with the desire to sit on a couch in front of a large display (55") with hi-fi. I guess I consider visible scanlines simply an artifact of CRTs displaying low resolutions (relative to screen size). I understand the element of nostalgia, I just consider not seeing scanlines being truer to the original image (frame buffer). However, switching to B1 is an enjoyable treat from time to time!

[RGB32E]

it's a phase Lumagen just announced a Gamemode for their Radiance series, so I'm looking at a single-processor setup on the long run and it probably will be one without a scanline function - so I enjoy it while it lasts.

I found a Lumagen forum where requests for having a 4ms game mode and 240p treated as progressive were placed in the firmware devs work item queue! Unfortately, it looks like the least expensive Radiance goes for $3,500! That's as much as I paid for my KDL-55XBR8!!! Ick! Interestingly though, it looks like Lumagen is based out of Beaverton, Oregon... a city I'm very familiar with! Hmmm....

But you'd still need the UVC. The 360 cannot output 240p signals, so you cannot play Raiden Fighters Aces, Death Smiles, DDP or Futari with scanlines on a CRT. Also many originally low-res DC games, e.g. Mars Matrix only display 480i on a CRT when connected directly in RGBs.

For current gen systems, aren't you using your BlackMagicDesign Multibridge Pro2 for scanline overlay? I still need to pick up RFA.... I have Raiden 4 though. Too bad Death Smiles won't be released in the US... a friend has a JP 360, but I don't feel like purchasing one myself. Ohh... too many games that won't make it state side!

As an aside, I just found out about a 360 game called "Shadow Complex" the other day! This game is nuts! Metroid, Gears of War, Abuse and other good tid bits roled up into an epic package! How could I have missed this game for so many months (came out on Aug. 19th 2009).

[Fudoh]

a 4ms game mode and 240p treated as progressive were placed in the firmware devs work item queue!

completed now and soon the be released

Unfortately, it looks like the least expensive Radiance goes for $3,500!

street price for a 2nd hand XD unit is $2500, something I could justify if I sell my 50pro and Optoma. I'll have a Lumagen demo unit over next week for reviewing.

For current gen systems, aren't you using your BlackMagicDesign Multibridge Pro2 for scanline overlay?

not actively since the Multbridge is actively cooled (and quite loud) and I don't have it usually on. Too much of a hassle in general. 360 with scanlines is an experiment, I usually just connect the system and enjoy.

a 360 game called "Shadow Complex" the other day!

played and found to be good. Still need to buy it though.

[RGB32E]

completed now and soon the be released

I'll have a Lumagen demo unit over next week for reviewing.

Why don't I get one for reviewing! I wonder what the dev tested the functionality out with? Which model are you receiving (XD, XE, XS)?

[Artemio]

street price for a 2nd hand XD unit is $2500, something I could justify if I sell my 50pro and Optoma. I'll have a Lumagen demo unit over next week for reviewing.

I'd help you by buying your optoma =P

[Fudoh]

Which model are you receiving (XD, XE, XS)?

should be a XD unit, which means full PiP support (compared to the XS), just no DTS-HD passthrough (compared to the XE).

[Strider77]

I guess I consider visible scanlines simply an artifact of CRTs displaying low resolutions (relative to screen size). I understand the element of nostalgia, I just consider not seeing scanlines being truer to the original image (frame buffer). However, switching to B1 is an enjoyable treat from time to time!

I don't see it that way. That pixel art was drawn with 240 lines of resolution in mind. If the developers had 480 lines of resolution in mind/available, their pixel art would have been dramatically different. A game like guilty gear is a perfect example, it looks like a game with 480 lines because the pixel art was created in 480p. A game like Street Fighter 2 would not have been made with 240p pixel art then just line doubled if the developers had hardware able to do the game with 480 lines of resolution.

That's the way I see it anyways. When it's line doubled it just looks way blockier than what I think the pixel artists would have intended it to look. Like I said when you look at a naitive 480i or 480p game it looks dramatically "better" than a 240p game line doubled.

[RGB32E]

I don't see it that way. That pixel art was drawn with 240 lines of resolution in mind. If the developers had 480 lines of resolution in mind/available, their pixel art would have been dramatically different. A game like guilty gear is a perfect example, it looks like a game with 480 lines because the pixel art was created in 480p. A game like Street Fighter 2 would not have been made with 240p pixel art then just line doubled if the developers had hardware able to do the game with 480 lines of resolution.

That's the way I see it anyways. When it's line doubled it just looks way blockier than what I think the pixel artists would have intended it to look. Like I said when you look at a naitive 480i or 480p game it looks dramatically "better" than a 240p game line doubled.

While it's true that the resolution of 2D art assets are typically created at a resolution relative to the target size of a frame buffer, you're making two different points - resolution capability and available display devices for monitoring. I think the most direct point you have is to what degree CRT scan lines at one point in time might have influenced the artwork created. I think that it is more an issue of resolution (HW capability), than the artifacts of the display tech at the time. Hence, adding scanlines to emulate the look of a CRT is for nostalgia, rather than the intent of the developers at the time.

The closest analogy to your opinion is the viewing of film at 24Hz, without frame interpolation to make film look like video! Not that I really care for making film look like video, just sayin! For me, I really like B0, since it gives a direct/raw presentation of the pixels, no massaging, just straight up pixels!

[Strider77]

Yeah I can see your point.... it just looks to blocky without the scanlines to me. Filtering is a big no no for me though. I hate that smeared look it gives the image.

[Konsolkongen]

Removing the Sync chip from the MegaDrive cable did not help :S

Maybe its the Master System Converter II thats FU? Doesn't work in B1 mode, doesn't have the card input and costs 3 times as much. But looks a hell of alot better and fits on the MegaDrive 2 :p

Screw it picture is great in B0 mode.

[CrackLtd]

Scanlines are overrated and totally obsolete anyways. One of the big advantages of the new technology (flat panels, upscan convertes etc) is that you can GET RID of scanlines. And that they do superb. At least the XRGB-3 does. I always found the scanlines annoying. They are nothing else than thin black lines on CRTs with NO information. Thair only job is artificially stretching the the picture horizontally so the picture still has correct ratio, because there is only half of information of an interlaced picture. Personally, i kiss the scanlines butt good bye. Forever.

[em0ti0n]

Scanlines are overrated and totally obsolete anyways. One of the big advantages of the new technology (flat panels, upscan convertes etc) is that you can GET RID of scanlines. And that they do superb. At least the XRGB-3 does. I always found the scanlines annoying. They are nothing else than thin black lines on CRTs with NO information. Thair only job is artificially stretching the the picture horizontally so the picture still has correct ratio, because there is only half of information of an interlaced picture. Personally, i kiss the scanlines butt good bye. Forever.

Well, I love scanlines.
Why?
I should ask myself one day, really
Till then, I'm going to enjoy CRTish-look on my HDTV ... because .. the picture with those damn scanlines looks so sexy & blocky ... uhhm

[Artemio]

First of all, let's state it is a matter of taste. I doubt we are going to convince each other on using or not using scanlines.

But you make apoint that is exactly the reason why I use them. You state:

They are nothing else than thin black lines on CRTs with NO information. Thair only job is artificially stretching the the picture horizontally so the picture still has correct ratio, because there is only half of information of an interlaced picture.

And getting rid of those scanlines duplicates or interpolates information that wasn't there in the first place. I use very dim scanlines, around 200, or sometimes I go as dark as 172 when I feel like it but I do it because it looks quite similar to my arcade monitor or my CRT. The way the game was originally played.

[RGB32E]

I tried out my RGB moded NES on the XRGB-3 last night! Fun stuff! I'm building a different RGB amp to try, since the moosman amp does funny stuff. It appears that the R, G, and B signals change intensity with some games based off of how much a given color is used. I modified his design by using 75 ohm resistors instead of 47 ohm to darken the picture. Perhaps the value changes the load of the circuit or something. Before changing those resistors, I had to add 220uF caps to filter out bleading noise... Anyways, I almost prefer B1 with scanline setting of 201 over B0 with the current video amp. My new amp will be very similar to the one Fudoh uses in his PC Engine Duo...

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to spark a big debate about scanlines. To each his own, and I find that both B0 and B1 each have their strengths depending up the source signal. I just wish that the output in B1 mode was cleaner and didn't require LPF for most RGB sources.

[Artemio]

i want to do that RGB mod to my NES. i'd love to hear any details on how and where you got the ppu, and any other info. It is something I am dying to do.

[Konsolkongen]

I would like to add to the scanline discussion that i prefer playing 2D 240p games with scanlines not only because it looks good but it also makes the LCD smearing less noticeable. Of course its still there but there is a big difference playing Sonic with and without scanlines.

I don't like scanlines on 3D games even if they are 240p, it just looks wierd IMO.

[Chacranajxy]

hmmm... is there any way to reduce the noise in the XRGB3's picture when you're playing PS2 games? I'm using component cables (and the little component to D-terminal adapter the thing comes with), and it looks kinda mangy. I don't think it's a matter of it not working well with my monitor, either, because my Saturn over RGB looks like sex.

[em0ti0n]

hmmm... is there any way to reduce the noise in the XRGB3's picture when you're playing PS2 games? I'm using component cables (and the little component to D-terminal adapter the thing comes with), and it looks kinda mangy. I don't think it's a matter of it not working well with my monitor, either, because my Saturn over RGB looks like sex.

try to change A/D level from default value 255 to something else, I use 193/194

[Fudoh]

em0ti0n is right, best way is to find the right A/D Setting first. Mine's running on 179. Second is to use the LPF. Unfortunately the component signal of the PS2 is noisy as hell as long as you use component cables. I found that the original sony RGB cables delivers a cleaner signal - EVEN if used for component signals. You can easily use a PS2 RGB cable, connect it to the front Scart input and set both the PS2 and the XRGB's scart input to component. This way you have the better cabling and can still use 480p games.

[Chacranajxy]

Hmmm... didn't realize that there were RGB cables available for the PS2... It seems strange that component would be so noisy, but it's good that there's apparently an alternative that can even do 480p...

so where can I get a cable that I know is Japanese? I don't wanna try my luck on Ebay and end up blowing my xrgb...

[Konsolkongen]

Great info Fudoh i didn't think the XRGB-3 would accept 480p through RGBs. I'm getting one ASAP.

Chacranajxy> You could use a multimeter and check the pinout if you get one and then resolder the cable if its an EU one. Or you could do like i did and resolder the XRGB's RGBs input to accept EU cables Don't know if a JAP RGBs cable was ever released.

[Artemio]

I use the official Playstation 1 cable, part number SCPH-1050., code 3-963-035-1 and bc T4948872010504.

It works with PS2 and even PS3.

[Fudoh]

Great info Fudoh i didn't think the XRGB-3 would accept 480p through RGBs. I'm getting one ASAP.

technically it doesn't. You need to set the Scart input to component to make it work.

Don't know if a JAP RGBs cable was ever released.

It was, one in 1994 and a cheaper one in 1996 or 97. After that no more RGB cables were released.

[em0ti0n]

Chacranajxy: if you are not familiar with soldering etc. you can grab an EU RGB SCART cable and then get adapter which converts EU SCART -> JPN SCART layout
eBay user chaoticjelly made one for me, it works great!

[Chacranajxy]

That actually seems like a pretty decent option. I'd rather not chance it, and I've never soldered before and don't particularly want to try.

[RGB32E]

I haven't tried any of the Playstation systems on my XRGB-3 yet. I find no good reason to play PS1 games on anything other than the PS3, as it gives pixel perfect scaling on my 1080p TV. Playing PS2 games is another story...

However, I have many RGB cable stocks to build RGB cables for the playstation systems. These are unterminated scart/RGB cables that are the same stock as the Official Sony JP21 and SCART PS1 cables (grey jacket). I guess I need to pop on a spare scart plug with wiring for JP21!

Hence, time to build a cable so that I can catch up on some PS2 games via my XRGB-3!

Also, the new amp for my RGB modded NES works great! Way better than the moosman one, and I think it will work perfect for N64 RGB mods as well! Yay for me!

[darthcloud]

I haven't tried any of the Playstation systems on my XRGB-3 yet. I find no good reason to play PS1 games on anything other than the PS3, as it gives pixel perfect scaling on my 1080p TV. Playing PS2 games is another story...

However, I have many RGB cable stocks to build RGB cables for the playstation systems. These are unterminated scart/RGB cables that are the same stock as the Official Sony JP21 and SCART PS1 cables (grey jacket). I guess I need to pop on a spare scart plug with wiring for JP21!

Hence, time to build a cable so that I can catch up on some PS2 games via my XRGB-3!

Also, the new amp for my RGB modded NES works great! Way better than the moosman one, and I think it will work perfect for N64 RGB mods as well! Yay for me!

Any schem of your amp?, I should mod my New Famicom soon, thanks

[Fudoh]

Updated to 2.12 today just out of curiosity and to test the XRGB again the Radiance I have on hand right now. 1080p works fine now via HDMI on my setup. Full-HD low/high doesn't make a difference. Anyone know what exactly the Dot_by_Dot setting does ?

A digital screenshot from the DVI output:

[Konsolkongen]

DOT_by_DOT forces the image in the correct aspect ratio. It might give huge borders on the screen but every pixel are the same hight and length. I like it.

EDIT: You can see that the black lines on top of the I's are taller than the ones in the bottom. Turing on DOT_by_DOT should fix that.

EDIT2: That image is taken without the use of the Lumagen Radiance right? If you decide to keep that i'm still very interested in your Optoma :p