Finding the emulation deficiencies - Vol. 1: CAVE games.

[Recap]

More info here on LM1881 sync splitter:
http://www.gamesx.com/misctech/lm1881.htm

And here is the console FAQ I wrote for arcadecontrols:
http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_consoles.shtml

I see. Thanks.

[raiden]

The PS2 Cave ports are not scaled, this was discussed in a different thread

Ok, must have been different monitor quality, then. But Giga Wing on DC is scaled, isn´t it? Just so I can still trust my eyes a little.

My DDP PCB says "1997 2/5 MASTER VER." at the bottom of the bootup Japan warning screen.

same here.

I mispoke on where the slowdown is. Its actually the second boss, when he starts throwing out the slow blue elongated fire. But it only starts blinking and everything slowing down while I hold the A button down. If I release it, everything speeds back up and no blinking. I use the first (red) ship with laser type secondary fire.

normally, I use the blue ship, but to make sure, I just tried it with the red one. Definitely no blinking bullets here. I didn´t read the voltage, as my voltmeter isn´t precise enough, but I think it´s lower than yours. Maybe the higher voltage supposed to mend the flickering hurts the graphic chips? Ok, just to cure any envy, on my board the sound is rather bad, like a record covered with dust. Maybe I should try to clean the sound poti some time.

[undamned]

For anyone who is intererested:

Hi, just letting you know your PCB arrived today.

Guru

-ud

[incognoscente]

Hopefully it will take less than 10 years for you to get it back :)

[judesalmon]

The only Cave game I played in Mame was Guwange, as it took me ages to get hold of the PCB and I'm certainly no 'expert' player.

Compared to the PCB, everything just seems 'off'. I can't put my finger on it exactly, but I can't get as good scores in Mame as I can on the PCB, so I know there must be a difference.

Mame would be acceptable if you hadn't played the PCB, but as soon as you have given some time to the PCB, then the PCB would be your choice everytime.

It's like a virgin saying masturbation is better than sex.

[snap monkey]

It's like a virgin saying masturbation is better than sex.

Wow, could have done without that choice line. But for future reference, there's no reason to put yourself down like that.

[raiden]

It's like a virgin saying masturbation is better than sex.

I think that describes it rather well.

[jdsony]

This is for the guy wondering about the video output of the XBOX being worse than the PS2 and Gamecube. This is true when using interlaced output such as 480i. The Xbox applies a lot of needless filtering to the image which is apparent on interlaced output. The progressive output is far superior. I've used S-Video on my RGB monitor before and it actually looked pretty good for Xbox related software, I don't remember what emulation was like but I'm pretty sure it looked better coming from my PC. I have the components required to make an RGB cable for my XBOX so I'll give that a try when I can.

As for emulation vs the real thing. There are many factors on both the PC and the PCB that will make it near impossible to make everything 100%. I say near because technically someone could emulate slight inconsistencies and controller lag could be eliminated in the future. Emulation can also be better than the real thing which is especially the case with 3D emulation but it depends on the person. Some people would like exact 100% emulation other people would like faster emulation or emulation that improves upon the original product. If you are a more serious player playing for scores and such then obviously perfect emulation is what should be strived for so that people are playing on even ground through emulation or on the PCB. I guess I understand where Mame dev's are coming from now. In the past I have always had a problem with them emulating games that are too slow to run on any computer. I've always though that a game running way too slow is just as inaccurate or more as not emulating certain functions for a faster speed.

[GaijinPunch]

I have the components required to make an RGB cable for my XBOX so I'll give that a try when I can.

This actually involves a lot of work I have read. I found a Japanese page that did it. The games would still output a filtered RGB signal though, no?

ON topic: I've got the ESPRade PCB and do much better on the PCB. It's very likely though that it's b/c the display is so much bigger. I will one day be able to play MAME stuff on that monitor, but not for a while.

[Capt. Takehiko]

Considering it is not illegal to play roms when you own the board, does this apply to Neo carts? I'm pretty sure it does, so could someone pm me a site that has complete MAME roms for the fighters.

[Dylan1CC]

All this talk about PCB owners feeling the "sting" is quite stupid. If you have the money, and you want to collect the PCB's, that should be fine. You'll have no issues of any kind, plus, you'll know its running correctly because there's only one way for it to run. Emu's have too many friggin options to set, and therefore, the game might not look or play EXACTLY like the PCB.

I like emulation, and I think its pretty close to the real thing(mybe 98 percent)...but I'm positive that if I owned the PCB, I would be much happier.

BTW: I emulate through an XBOX with composite video. Maybe if I had a "super-computer" things would look and play better...but the cost of a computer, honestly, I would rather buy an arcade cab...I plan to do so, one day. Everything plays fine on the Xbox, but I notice some control "lag" when playing MAME0X stuff. Even though its only slight, it can still feel a little "floaty" at times.

I think Twitch's post sums up my feelings nicely.

[FatCobra]

I think emulation is wonderful...simply because I can play games I've never played before for FREE.

But, it is not the same as playing it on actual hardware. I feel alot better owning the actual Cart/CD/PCB/whatever than going online and downloading a ROM. Plus, emulation isn't always 100% accurate and it feels....fake. But it's great for trying out games you've never seen before, and then buying a console port because you liked it so much.

I'd rather have a slighty inferior port than a arcade-perfect ROM just because the port is a legit release.

[yojo!]

Compared to the PCB, everything just seems 'off'. I can't put my finger on it exactly, but I can't get as good scores in Mame as I can on the PCB, so I know there must be a difference.

I had the same experience with Flying Shark; played it for years on normal difficulty in MAME w/o being able to 1CC it. Once I got the PCB I was able to 1CC easily on my 1st run on hard. I don't think it has anything to do with training since I tried back on my PC and can't still 1CC it on normal. The slow down look identiqual on both MAME and PCB (i.e. mid level 3 and level 5 on the beach before the last boss), so I don't konw what is causing this

[Dave_K.]

I had the same experience with Flying Shark; played it for years on normal difficulty in MAME w/o being able to 1CC it. Once I got the PCB I was able to 1CC easily on my 1st run on hard. I don't think it has anything to do with training since I tried back on my PC and can't still 1CC it on normal. The slow down look identiqual on both MAME and PCB (i.e. mid level 3 and level 5 on the beach before the last boss), so I don't konw what is causing this

One thing Mame people always leave out of the equation in emulation is the display and controls. If you aren't playing on the intended size monitor, in the intended orientation (vert, hor) with the intended controls (8-way arcade stick with arcade buttons), then you can talk till you're blue in the face about how accurate emulation is...but the fact is you are still not expierencing the same thing. I'm not saying you can't hook up Mame/PC inside a jamma cab, of course you can, but most people don't.

I'm willing to bet it was the display/controls that made you better on the PCB.

I am a super Robotron player on my original williams cabinet. But in mame, even mame inside a jamma cab, I suck. It's not the same without a 19 inch monitor and wico leaf switch joysticks correctly spaced apart.

[matt]

I have the components required to make an RGB cable for my XBOX so I'll give that a try when I can.

This actually involves a lot of work I have read. I found a Japanese page that did it. The games would still output a filtered RGB signal though, no?

Making an RGB cable for the Xbox is very easy - the system outputs a normal RGB signal just like most other consoles.

But the video is still interlaced, as you'd expect.

[Dave_K.]

Resurrecting this thread, as 8 1/2 made a comment during last weeks shmupmeet asking if my DDP was a boot (being it slows down at times compared to Mame). This is the first time he has played on the real PCB. Bernard also had a similar comment, mentioning that some of the attacks were easier to dodge since it slowed down compared to mame. Rest assured, I have an original Atlus DDP board.

Has any progress been made with the PCB that was sent to Guru? I'm interested in learning if A) each PCB may be slightly different in terms of "slowness", maybe dependant on age? B) can program in some sort variable parameter to set the performance threashold.

I can only assume the emulated hardware was based off public specs on the chips used (which are best case operating conditions). But with possible manufacturing defects in materials, some chips/components could be less efficent, thus giving the real PCB a different performance characteristic.

Comments?

[Ataru]

I skimmed the last half of this thread but something leaps out at me:

people are tossing around 5-20% speed differences and then suggesting that a 10% speed difference would not be noticable.

As a musician, a shmup player, and someone who does a lot of audio editing, this is really wrong.

I'd say a difference in speed of 1-2% could force you to adjust your play style, or make the game significantly easier for you.

in situations where one is focusing at a resolution of 1/60th of a second (like playing virtua fighter 4 or while playing manic shmups), even the slightest speed change will be noticable.

[Recap]

I skimmed the last half of this thread but something leaps out at me:

people are tossing around 5-20% speed differences and then suggesting that a 10% speed difference would not be noticable.

As a musician, a shmup player, and someone who does a lot of audio editing, this is really wrong.

I'd say a difference in speed of 1-2% could force you to adjust your play style, or make the game significantly easier for you.

in situations where one is focusing at a resolution of 1/60th of a second (like playing virtua fighter 4 or while playing manic shmups), even the slightest speed change will be noticable.

Actually, if something's clear thanks to this thread is that the speed differences are not constant, but at some moments where the original hardware is pushed beyond its processing limits. The 5~10% is clockspeed-related.

[Ataru]

Actually, if something's clear thanks to this thread is that the speed differences are not constant, but at some moments where the original hardware is pushed beyond its processing limits. The 5~10% is clockspeed-related.

what I'm saying is that regardless of the context (overall game or specific slowdown), you'll notice even a very tiny difference when playing with intense concentration, as when playing music or shmups or virtua fighter. ^_^

[raiden]

Has any progress been made with the PCB that was sent to Guru? I'm interested in learning if A) each PCB may be slightly different in terms of "slowness", maybe dependant on age? B) can program in some sort variable parameter to set the performance threashold.

I still suspect the voltage. Recently, Flying Shark has forced me to adjust voltage a bit, and as a result I´ve played DDP with slightly varying voltages, because my PSU doesn´t have a meter, so I can´t adjust it precisely.
And then I found out that my DDP behaves slightly differently each time, while before when I kept a constant voltage, it behaved completely predictably.

[pixelcorps]

Resurrecting this thread, as 8 1/2 made a comment during last weeks shmupmeet asking if my DDP was a boot (being it slows down at times compared to Mame). This is the first time he has played on the real PCB. Bernard also had a similar comment, mentioning that some of the attacks were easier to dodge since it slowed down compared to mame. Rest assured, I have an original Atlus DDP board.

Has any progress been made with the PCB that was sent to Guru? I'm interested in learning if A) each PCB may be slightly different in terms of "slowness", maybe dependant on age? B) can program in some sort variable parameter to set the performance threashold.

I can only assume the emulated hardware was based off public specs on the chips used (which are best case operating conditions). But with possible manufacturing defects in materials, some chips/components could be less efficent, thus giving the real PCB a different performance characteristic.

Comments?

so this means that emu players will have slightly more honed skills after practice?? pwn!!

[Dave_K.]

so this means that emu players will have slightly more honed skills after practice?? pwn!!

At least for DDP, yes.

[Dave_K.]

Has any progress been made with the PCB that was sent to Guru? I'm interested in learning if A) each PCB may be slightly different in terms of "slowness", maybe dependant on age? B) can program in some sort variable parameter to set the performance threashold.

I still suspect the voltage. Recently, Flying Shark has forced me to adjust voltage a bit, and as a result I´ve played DDP with slightly varying voltages, because my PSU doesn´t have a meter, so I can´t adjust it precisely.
And then I found out that my DDP behaves slightly differently each time, while before when I kept a constant voltage, it behaved completely predictably.

I checked my voltage again. +5.26 So I lowered it to exactly +5.0 and tried it out. Exact same play, same slowdown, same slight bullet blinking during 2nd stage end boss. I'd really like to compare this against another DDP board but don't think anyone in my area has another.

[undamned]

Resurrecting this thread, as 8 1/2 made a comment during last weeks shmupmeet asking if my DDP was a boot (being it slows down at times compared to Mame). This is the first time he has played on the real PCB.

Actually he played it it my house, at one of the AZ meets.
-ud

[Dave_K.]

Resurrecting this thread, as 8 1/2 made a comment during last weeks shmupmeet asking if my DDP was a boot (being it slows down at times compared to Mame). This is the first time he has played on the real PCB.

Actually he played it it my house, at one of the AZ meets.
-ud

8 1/2 did mention playing yours, but didn't quite remember if there was slowdown or not. I'm sure there was, but I'm more curious with the slight flashing blue elongated fire during boss #2. When you kill boss #2 with a lot of stars at the end, sometimes your ship just disapears for a second or two as you are picking up the stars. You notice any of this?

I have a feeling most people are playing through a supergun, which will have the RGB converted to s-video so less noticeable flashing.

[raiden]

8 1/2 did mention playing yours, but didn't quite remember if there was slowdown or not. I'm sure there was, but I'm more curious with the slight flashing blue elongated fire during boss #2. When you kill boss #2 with a lot of stars at the end, sometimes your ship just disapears for a second or two as you are picking up the stars. You notice any of this?

I noticed that, too, as well as stars disappearing. Just not any bullets.

I have a feeling most people are playing through a supergun, which will have the RGB converted to s-video so less noticeable flashing.

I´m playing through a supergun, but without a converter, it´s directly connected to the TV via Scart RGB.

[Dave_K.]

I noticed that, too, as well as stars disappearing. Just not any bullets.

The bullets never disapear, but flash a bit when they fill the screen, making it harder to track. Maybe I can make a video or something of it. Hmmm...

[Elixir]

Many people believe that emulating an arcade game can't mimic the original PCB at all.

I'm sorry, what? Games don't have to be "arcade perfect" in order to change your score. People play Ikaruga on Gamecube and it's far from perfect. I don't see any of them hopping over to DC(unless of course, they already own the dreamcast version, and in which case it's entirely personal preference) just because of a few minor glitches.

Secondly I don't think you can say that games need to be exactly the same in order to be played.

Many of us know that, with the correct equipment (that is, with an Arcade VGA card and an RGB monitor, and, of course, a good joystick) it is actually possible, and the result is only dependant on how well coded the emulator is.

Yes, because all shmups need to be played with a joystick. Ah, good, this forum has exactly what I was needing:

So many people play arcade games via MAME and other emulators instead of buying PCB's. That's why we're starting to speak of "MAME versions". Since some games don't have a perfect emulation status, their final behavior is indeed different for the player's eyes and hands.

MAME isn't the only arcade emulator available. On the subject of MAME, I wouldn't knock it. It's done a seriously good job so far.

Cave games are famous for this. MAME devs haven't achieved to reproduce the original hardware speed, hence the games plays differently. MAME devs are aware of this. I recently asked Guru (one of them) about the problem and he said they need a Cave PCB in order to fix the speed in all the Cave hardware-related games (which includes the likes of the Sailor Moon arcade games, Air Gallet or Metamoquester).

Funny, that. The arcade version of Dodonpachi and the PSX version are, in my eyes, basically the same. Comparing the PSX version to the MAME version, I don't see much difference at all. It isn't such a difference in which the game becomes entirely unplayable. We could always bitch and moan over the small little details, but the game itself runs like a game should.

This thread has two purposes: Compiling accurately once and for all the emulation deficiencies of Cave's shooting games, since many people here have the PCB's and have compared both "versions" side-by-side. And secondly, checking how many of us are interested in buying a Cave (old) PCB for the MAME team in order to get perfect emulation of these games. Fortunately, there are not other glitches in them, so it wouldn't be a hard task for the driver's author.

I think what you're saying is basically, let's judge the hell out of cave games. That's not the issue at all. This goes for almost all MAME games in the sense that half of them aren't identical(and it isn't a requirement) and half of the players don't notice a difference.

DONPACHI: ?

DO DONPACHI: MAME acts as an overclocked PCB, hence there are less flickering sprites and slowdowns. Gameplay is affected.

ESPRADE: MAME acts as an overclocked PCB, hence there are less flickering sprites. Gameplay is almost intact (?).

DANGUN FEVERON: MAME runs it faster than the PCB (please, confirm).

GUWANGE: MAME acts as an overclocked PCB, hence there are less flickering sprites and slowdowns. Gameplay is affected.

AIR GALLET (Gazelle): "I can't see any difference between FBA (I don't know about MAME, my PC is too slow) and the PCB itself. Even the slow down at the end of level 1 when the space shuttle takes off looks pretty accurate." -Yojo!

PROGEAR NO ARASHI (CP-S II): ?

Yes, you can see all of the above just by playing the games listed.

Recap's second post

I actually have made some tests side-by-side with some Neo-Geo games, for instance. There are no sound differences at all, much less input lags even with USB controllers (you don't need to use USB, thoe). Samples are used only by very very few games, on the other hand. The point is that perfect emulation of most games is possible, as old Cave games.

Again, thinking you can judge just by the eye. There isn't anybody alive who can analyze something so in-depth as you. I don't know what your obsession with cave is, but get over it. Soon.

In this case, claims of perfection comes from someone who has made side-by-side tests with real hardware, but if you want, I can ask to the MAME devs and let you know the thoughts of these "emukiddies". They'll probably say that, indeed, you also can find speed differences between PCB's of the same game. So yep, PERFECTION is, most likely, impossible. Emulation without noticeable differences for even the most expert player IS possible and is a reality today.

So great, first you rant and rave over about how you'd love to achieve perfect emulation with various games. First you say it's possible, and now you're saying it's not possible.

I'd like to point out the fact that MAME emulates hundreds of thousands of games. I'm not sure if the company itself wants to sit there and focus on one particular genre, when they could be advancing foward and adding more games.

Emulation, even once it becomes perfect(there's still that possibility there), will still have people complaining about other things.

For instance, without slowdown, the level 2 boss is quite a bit harder to handle than the level 3 boss. Even with slowdown, this is true to some extent, but the slowdown can actually be seen as a balancing tool to keep the stage 2 boss´ difficulty in check.

I noticed this too. In most/some cases, slowdown helps. DDP is known for this. I'm not sure about DOJ, as I've never modded my PS2, but somebody's bound to complain about that also..

The whole idea of manic shooters can be summed up by increasing bullet count and balancing this out with a small hitzone and a low bullet speed. That´s why I find slowdown a lot more disturbing in oldschool games with only a few objects on screen than in bullet curtain games where it can actually aid playability.

I totally agree with this myself. Speaking of raiden, I've only played the arcade version of Raiden II once, so I couldn't possibly compare it to the PSX version(although, honestly, Raiden DX is superior).

Overall I wouldn't like to sum up the idea of this thread being a perfectionist's dream. Moreover, I'd like to say that there;s one simple fact still hiding away here: it's just a game.

Whether you're playing an arcade perfect version, or playing a not-so arcade perfect version, people are still going to post high scores and brag about it. People are still going to complain over whether or not it's perfect, and people are still going to argue the fact that x game is better than x game. I think I make my point pretty clear here. Though, some people would consider games with slowdown to be classified as 'cheating', since slower speeds make games like DDP easier to master.

[Dave_K.]

Dear Newbie-Elixir, please do not participate in discussions you have not read all the way though, or do not understand. Clearly you have missed the meaning of this thread, as its NOT an argument over which is better (emulation v.s. PCB). Nobody is picking a fight here (except you), so please move along and go troll on some other msg board. Thanks.

[Elixir]

Dear Newbie-Elixir, please do not participate in discussions you have not read all the way though, or do not understand. Clearly you have missed the meaning of this thread, as its NOT an argument over which is better (emulation v.s. PCB). Nobody is picking a fight here (except you), so please move along and go troll on some other msg board. Thanks.

Dear Random-Flamer, since I don't appreciate being called "Newbie-Elixir", we can refrain from doing that in the future. Thanks. And holy christ, you think you have a point here. That isn't a very nice post to a newcomer(perhaps a little practice will help you improve on this in the future) and sure as shit, people should already know this by now: it doesn't matter how many posts you have, we're all on the same level. So because you have 280 posts, this makes your reply so much more superior. It doesn't quite work like that, sorry buddy.

Not only that, but he says I'm trolling. This is pretty laughable. You, in fact, are trolling. I was stating my intentions(and very clearly, I might say) in my original post and if you've managed to miss them, bad luck. Perhaps some reading of your own would help in your replies in the coming future.

I don't need another garbled message filled with a bunch of failed insults, so if you do intend on replying back, this time could you make it worthwhile? Thanks.