Shmupswiki Xenocide Restoration Project: Tagging & T.Derail

[DJ Incompetent]

Welcome.
This is the sister thread of the shmups.co.uk > now "The official ShmupsWiki.com project".

I will use this to ask questions, gather feedback, compare data, share objectives, and tell you things that are fun and useful for people who are not looking around at shmupswiki.com.

The main objective: To gather a complete list of known STGs with relevant info in one place.

Back in the day, there was the Xenocide files which attempted to contain all arcade and console STGs. Then there was Shoot the Core which kept a vast database on PC STGs. Xenocide files stopped updating long ago and Shoot the Core is recently deceased. malc is giving me the go-ahead to try to get Xenocide files up to speed. For this project, we're using a wiki site to allow anybody to fill in what they know. However, everybody is aware of the pitfalls of wikipedia sites. Therefore, when game information is considered 'complete', The info will be copied and added to the Xenocide files for permanent archiving. Depending on factors beyond anybody's control, one of two things is going to happen: shmups.com becomes the new one-stop shop for all things shooting games, or shmupswiki.com does.

I will maintain a list of subjects on the first post. When things need some input from you party people, I'll try to start a discussion and link you to the discussion from this first post.

(COMPLETE) 1: Organize a standardized mediawiki template for every game page
CURRENTLY ON -->2: Tagging entries for future searches? http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=17
CURRENTLY ON -->Thread Derail: What's the point? http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=20
3: Write definition pages for the template
4: Test small group of games. Look for oversights.

[DJ Incompetent]

#1: Organize a standardized mediawiki template for every game page
Leaving the community to begin entering gaming info from scratch will leave aimless random different segments for every game. I want to stop that mess before it starts since I agree with zakk.

I dunno, I think the rush of initial public access would just lead to 'a huge list of shmups with bleh content' and I'd rather see less of a 'list' and more 'here's a bunch of content about some specific things'.

I don't want bleh content. Fuck that. I understand incomplete content, but I don't want bleh content.

So I ask you now. What information do you want to know about every shoot-em-up game when you click on it? What are you looking for when looking up STGs? What needs to be filled out before an entry about a game is considered 'complete'?

Below is what I've thought out. If left unchanged, these sections will appear for every game when it's clicked on. Please criticize, append, approve, deny, share me what you think. You tell me what I'm not thinking of:
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Basics

Type (Hori, Vert, Arena) Developer, Publisher, Release Date, Arcade Hardware or Console, Stage Count (& Loops?), modes, ESTIMATED TIME OF 1CC PLAYTROUGH, life counts, extends (by score or icon collect), difficulty options, overall estimated difficulty, difficulty style (basic, semi-hell, bullet-hell), offline or online leaderboards (by region, world), notable staff credits, version differences, etc.


Overall Unique Characteristics

STGs are kinda like golf courses. They all look the same at first glance, but look closer and there are specific things about the title people seek. What differentiates this game from other IPs or the games before/after it? Your weapon types? Memorable bosses? Strange Artwork? Scoring System? A raccoon with giant balls?


Player Mechanics

Describe the controls, selectable ships/characters, what type of weapons you start with and what you can get it to, describe the powerup system if there is one. What is your player size hitbox? What is the enemy or bullet size hitbox? Describe unique interactions with enemies/powerups like the Gradius powerbar, Triggerheart Exelica anchor throw, or in Geometry Wars 2 with the running through gates to make them detonate enemies.


Demonstrations, Replays, Scores, & Superplays

Known list of good youtube/niconico captures and replay listings by player and accomplishment with links where legal. You may also list top or notable scores & scorers, known world records from Arcadia/Gamest and Twin Galaxies.


Scoring System

self-explanatory.


Tournament Recommendation

Can this game be used in score-comparison tournament play? There are several unique identifiers for determining this that I can't think of right now.


Codes, Configurations, & Achievements

Known button codes, Things that can be enabled by dip switch settings, Notable Xbox 360 achievements or Playstation trophys (and tricks to get them?)


Story

The in-game story or whatever is written in the instruction manual. Go ahead and spoil the ending since credit feeding is easy.


Trivia & Backstory

Fun facts that don't really go anywhere else, or tell an insteresting story of how this videogame came about.


Strategy

Anything and everything talked about in the strategy & hiscore forums. Also, how the Rank works.

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Thanks in advance for any assistance.

[Ixmucane2]

I've read more than my fair share of obscure and important game pages on Wikipedia, and they tend to cover a number of important although not shmup specific topics:

• Exact titles and release dates in various regions, just to understand what we're talking about; this also includes common abbreviations and official SKU codes and serial numbers.
• References to developers, publishers, notable individual authors (each of whom can deserve a separate page in the wiki).
• A discussion of ports, revisions, special editions of the game.
• A list of other games in the same series and cross-references to homages, citations, remakes and miscellaneously related games.
• Critical and commercial reception.
• References to the game in various media (the only actual "trivia").

In addition to individual games there can be pages for:

• Companies and famous designers, with history, a list of their works, and so on ( on Wikipedia, lists are usually split into separate pages).
• "Official" descriptions of shmup jargon and design elements to explain things well and once rather than incompletely many times; some could expand to, and spin off, heavyweight surveys and essays.
• If it isn't considered out of topic, discussion of generic strategy patterns (e.g. bullet herding, rank control) and advice (e.g. how to probe complicated scoring systems).
• Game series, specifically including the peculiar characteristics of the series as a whole that the component games have in common.
• Index lists of games by abbreviations, years, platforms (possibly split by console regions), developers and publishers, subgenres, perceived difficulty, and other categorizations; listing every game in every list would be nice, and checking could be automated.

[Plasmo]

http://www.triggerzone.de/gamesdb/index.php

That's a database of 2007 shmups and counting.

[t0yrobo]

The only thing I can think of to add (which may fit into already mentioned categories for the most part) is particular gameplay mechanics. For example, rank, scraping etc.

[Thunder Force]

I would include a "Similar To" section for each shmup, so a fan of one particular game could easily at a glance have a list of similar titles to check out.

Index lists of games by abbreviations, years, platforms (possibly split by console regions), developers and publishers, subgenres, perceived difficulty, and other categorizations; listing every game in every list would be nice, and checking could be automated.

Yes, sorting titles by subgenre and other criteria will be essential.

If memory serves, the five broad subgenres defined by this site as shmups are still:

- arena shmup (i.e. robotron-esque)
- tube shmup (i.e. gyruss-esque)
- horizontal scrolling shmup (i.e. gradius-esque)
- vertical scrolling shmup (i.e. raiden-esque)
- single-screen shmup (i.e. galaxian-esque)

And the two borderliner (i.e. borderline but not shmups) subgenres were:

- run-and-gun shooters (i.e. contra-esque)
- rail-shooters (i.e. space harrier-esque)

You'll need to decide if you want to cover borderliners, since their audience frequently overlaps with shmup fans, but not entirely.

The remaining subgenre of interest to cover will probably be 'non-shmup titles containing shmup segments' (e.g. xain'd sleena).

[neist]

I've spent a few days thinking about this (maybe more than a few days), but as far as step #1 goes, I can't think of anything that hasn't already been mentioned.

Though, relating to a point Ixmucane2 mentioned, getting exact dates on anything is very difficult. Sometimes getting broad release dates can be difficult. If you compare all the various databases out there for any miscellaneous platform, you'll find that they will often times conflict.

Also, though it may or may not relate to step #1, some forethought into how the skeletal structure of the wiki will be set up is probably worth putting some effort into. Without a good chain to follow, a wiki is just a big list of pages of information. The way in which the skeletal structure will be established may effect the layout and design of each individual page.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Isometric shmups (Zaxxon, Viewpoint) should also be included. The diagonal scroll is effectively a combination of horizontal scroll and vertical scroll.

Now, for the borderliners:

The thing about covering the run-and-gun shooters (i.e. contra-esque), is that there are multiple ways this can be done:

* If Contra counts, then what about Metal Slug, then what about something like Ghosts 'N' Goblins? In all three games, there is a fair amount of shooting and jumping, and IIRC the player cannot destroy enemies by any other way except for shooting (vs. something like Super Mario Bros. where the fireballs doesn't make the game a true shmup since Mario/Luigi can still stomp on enemies, or knock them off platforms by hitting the platform below the enemy ala Mario Bros. style).
* Do flat-style run and guns also count? (Front Line, Ikari Warriors, Heavy Barrel, Time Soldiers). They may not force-scroll, but the primary game mechanic is still shooting.

So there are a lot of games to debate as far as being considered borderliners when run and guns are included. At the same time, if run and guns are outright excluded then there are a lot of games where the primary mechanic is still shooting even if a game has or doesn't have jumping as a secondary mechanic.

[Thunder Force]

Isometric shmups (Zaxxon, Viewpoint) should also be included. The diagonal scroll is effectively a combination of horizontal scroll and vertical scroll.

Isometric might fail as a unique subgenre itself, since it happens to include a bunch of games from different subgenres. For example, to use your examples...

Zaxxon is practically After Burner (a rail shooter) viewed from an angle. Both have main movement along X/Y axis. The player's additional movement control along Z axis in Zaxxon, is identical to the player's speed control along Z axis in After Burner.

Meanwhile, Viewpoint is just a simple vertical scrolling shmup viewed from an angle (up, down, left, right control only).

[Ixmucane2]

Though, relating to a point Ixmucane2 mentioned, getting exact dates on anything is very difficult. Sometimes getting broad release dates can be difficult. If you compare all the various databases out there for any miscellaneous platform, you'll find that they will often times conflict.

But we should want exact dates, and try to get them right wenever possible.
Wikis are meant to be edited and improved; every information item in every page can improve from complete ignorance, to wrong data or a guess, to incomplete information or a known (and explicit) disagreement between sources, to convincing evidence.
About the specific area of game release dates, I don't share your pessimism: advertisements, press releases, gaming press articles, recollections of when a game was bought, etc. should be easy to obtain for most games.

Also, though it may or may not relate to step #1, some forethought into how the skeletal structure of the wiki will be set up is probably worth putting some effort into. Without a good chain to follow, a wiki is just a big list of pages of information. The way in which the skeletal structure will be established may effect the layout and design of each individual page.

I suggested some page types (with enough useful links to be a functional hypertext and not "a big list of pages of information") and DJ Incompetent outlined a standard format for game pages: between our two long posts, I think "skeletal structure" already got a comprehensive treatment.
Do you have additional or different recommendations in these two areas, or are you asking for something else?

[t0yrobo]

Also, though it may or may not relate to step #1, some forethought into how the skeletal structure of the wiki will be set up is probably worth putting some effort into. Without a good chain to follow, a wiki is just a big list of pages of information. The way in which the skeletal structure will be established may effect the layout and design of each individual page.

Definitely. A fair amount of this could probably be pulled from the page template DJ Incompetent started. A chain a pages for people, hardware etc. could be a big help in keeping everything organized, and making the information complete. Having that information linked to in the game articles would really help in getting around the wiki.

I think Ixmucane2 pretty much covered all this but here goes anyways. We should probably work out a basic template like there is for the game pages to go with these also.
People
Hardware (arcade, console,pc)
Developers
Terminology
Game Series
Sub-genre
Borderliners (not sure if this should even be bothered with for now)
and master lists of everything
I feel like I'm still missing something here, but I think all the pertinent information that should be there has already been mentioned in the thread.

I'm wondering what everyone else think about what should be put on the front page. Maybe a short summary/mission statement type thing, and links to these lists? I dunno what else would make since to put there, just those things seems like it'd leave it rather empty. I don't want to get ahead of ourselves though, that can probably wait till more basics are completed.

[Thunder Force]

As reference/inspiration maybe also take a look at what GiantBomb is doing (without ripping them off, obviously ).

[neist]

Though, relating to a point Ixmucane2 mentioned, getting exact dates on anything is very difficult. Sometimes getting broad release dates can be difficult. If you compare all the various databases out there for any miscellaneous platform, you'll find that they will often times conflict.

But we should want exact dates, and try to get them right wenever possible.
Wikis are meant to be edited and improved; every information item in every page can improve from complete ignorance, to wrong data or a guess, to incomplete information or a known (and explicit) disagreement between sources, to convincing evidence.
About the specific area of game release dates, I don't share your pessimism: advertisements, press releases, gaming press articles, recollections of when a game was bought, etc. should be easy to obtain for most games.

Also, though it may or may not relate to step #1, some forethought into how the skeletal structure of the wiki will be set up is probably worth putting some effort into. Without a good chain to follow, a wiki is just a big list of pages of information. The way in which the skeletal structure will be established may effect the layout and design of each individual page.

I suggested some page types (with enough useful links to be a functional hypertext and not "a big list of pages of information") and DJ Incompetent outlined a standard format for game pages: between our two long posts, I think "skeletal structure" already got a comprehensive treatment.
Do you have additional or different recommendations in these two areas, or are you asking for something else?

As far as exact dates go, sure we want them, but all I'm saying is don't get your hopes up. After around 1000 entries in my spreadsheet, I was lucky to find a lot of the titles to have matching years, let alone exact dates. This is especially true for older, obscure titles. I'm not sure about other parts of the world, but the US didn't exactly keep track of release dates from the 16-bit era and earlier. Just look at the arcade chronology tacked onto the top of this forum. Often times you're lucky to have the month it was released, let alone the exact day.

And I'm not pessimistic, I'm realistic. Video game history is largely an oral history, so there's a lot of info that we simply do not have anymore. You could probably make comparisons to the really early years of film. The sources that we do have are inexact and conflicting. On my spreadsheet I'd be INCREDIBLY lucky if I could find a flier for a game, but often times I'd just have to go off of what Gamefaqs told me, because there's no other source of information.

All of the sources of information you listed will work for, say, the last 10 years or so, but earlier than that there's no chance, especially for arcade titles, which very rarely have specific release dates, let alone tracked release dates. Digital forms of press releases (if you can even find old ones) only go back to the early 2000's. Most companies clear out their press sites pretty regularly, and you can't often find press releases that are 2 years old let alone 10. Electronic version of press articles could be said of the same. I'm also not sure about anyone else, but I don't have massive stacks of video game magazines from the last decade or two to try to track down all the release dates. As far as I know there's probably only one person who has access to that sort of information, Magweasel. He has something like 7000-8000 gaming magazines now. I'd LOVE to have access to his collection for my own research, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't live anywhere near me.

I mean, maybe shmup release dates are easier to find than arena shooters release dates. Maybe I'm completely wrong. But my own research leads me to believe finding release dates will be exception not the rule.

As per the second part of your reply, there's no need to be snarky. Seriously, it's not needed. I even cited your post in my own.

I'm mostly referring to a conscious attempt to actually establish those standards well. Talking how we'll set up pages is all fine and good, but those pages aren't what you'll see initially. What I'm talking about is that portal you'll initially see and how its organized. That's what will hold all of the game pages together. From a pure communicative point-of-view, we need an efficient design that ties everything. I know it seems silly, but we'll be thankful we thought of everything after we start throwing up game pages for thousands of games. Denying extra forethought would be foolish. I've been involved with more than a few projects that involved thousands of items only to have to go back and re-edit them because something wasn't thought through.

I'd like to think that this Wiki will be more than a resource that only fans can understand. I'd hope it'd aim at informing everyone. We have to make sure it's easy enough to read that everyone can gain something from it. If we're not careful it may end up as a giant source of information that only the well-informed can read.

Maybe I just have too grand of hopes for this.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Isometric shmups (Zaxxon, Viewpoint) should also be included. The diagonal scroll is effectively a combination of horizontal scroll and vertical scroll.

Isometric might fail as a unique subgenre itself, since it happens to include a bunch of games from different subgenres. For example, to use your examples...

Zaxxon is practically After Burner (a rail shooter) viewed from an angle. Both have main movement along X/Y axis. The player's additional movement control along Z axis in Zaxxon, is identical to the player's speed control along Z axis in After Burner.

Meanwhile, Viewpoint is just a simple vertical scrolling shmup viewed from an angle (up, down, left, right control only).

The main difference with Zaxxon--besides that it predates Afterburner--is that there is no actual forward/backward speed control actively controlled by the player. The game may adjust scroll speed based on altitude but the player cannot further adjust speed slower or faster at a given altitude. So that means the controls and axes are as follows:

Up/down: controls player's altitude.
Left/right: controls player's position in a flat plane based on altitude.

Super Zaxxon is similar, substituting a tunnel for the space section, a dragon for the robot, and having a faster speed.

IMHO, it's more similar to Atari's Desert Falcon turned 45 degrees, rather than Afterburner (which does have up/down, left/right, and slow/fast dynamics).

Zaxxon's Motherbase 2000 (32X) is essentially Viewpoint with the ship able to jump, also can jump into certain enemies and learn their weapon attacks (and has lots and lots of slowdown).

That's about all I'll add to the topic of including Isometric shumps.

[malc]

Hi Dj - just having a wee poke around just now!

I think your list is pretty comprehensive, all the relevant type of information I think I'd like to see, from a user perspective, would be covered by those categories.

All this info though, is text based. I wonder if it would open a can of worms, but any visual aspects - how would those be included? I know it might be pretty much a given for any strategy info - there may be the need for diagrams etc - but any screenshots - whether to include them or not - as well as any other art available.

I'm not sure how much would be needed. Wikipedia gets away with sometimes just a single image for an entry in general, but I think for the purposes of this project, it would be nice to have more.

Maybe it might be an idea just linking to any reviews that exist for that, I am thinking of the format I was using in shmups.com for reviews, at least ones I did - where a review would have the text at the start, and then walk a visitor through the screenshots with caption that told them what was going on, demonstrating boss attacks and strategies, and dropping a few tips n hints as the screenshots were laid out.

I suppose what I am thinking - is where is the line drawn between any reviews which show personal opinion, and lots of images, and where the scope of a wiki page should be.

Anyway, not an awful lot of feedback so far eh? Maybe theres a sort of critical mass where people see the value of such a project only when theres a good few entries in, and that will kickstart the rest.

Personally, I am very happy with the list so far, I dont see anything at all that wouldnt fit in there somewhere, even if a section had to be slightly repurposed, its not going to be drastic.

byebye, off to bed, up too late as usual! malc

[DJ Incompetent]

Great thinktank, gentlemen.
I have attempted to revise and cleanup based on your thoughts. Here's my new draft. Please approve, append, or criticize.

Also, that references link. Plasmo and Thunder Force posted some great things. I intend to post a blanket base of game database references to every game page as it's easier for users to delete references than it is to add, and it's great for users who don't have the knowledge but want to help to pull the bits of unique info from each place to add to this monolith. Any other useful game database sites that should be added?
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Basics

Type: (Horizontal, Vertical, Arena, Slider, Tube, Isometric, Hybrid) (Note: run-and-gun and rail-shooters are considered borderliners, not officially shmups)
Difficulty Style: (Standard, Semi-Hell, Memorizor, Manic Bullet-Hell)
Japanese Spelling:
Developer:
Publisher & Release Date* - East: (Japan, Asia, etc.)
Publisher & Release Date* - West: (United States, Canada, Mexico, etc.)
Publisher & Release Date* - Europe:
Publisher & Release Date* - Australia:
(*Include all [debatable] conflicting release dates)
Original Game System Release: (first console/machine game built for)
System Ports: (all other consoles videogame has been released for)
Available in MAME:
Arcade Hardware: (if applicable)
Stage Count: (& Loops?)
Game Modes:
Estimated Time of 1CC Playthrough:
Default Player Life Count:
Extra Life Extends: (by score or icon collect)
Difficulty Options:
Offline or Online Leaderboards: (by region, world)
Number of Players: (simultaneous or alternating)
Notable Staff Credits:
Common Abbreviations & Pronunciation(s):
Official or Developer Websites:


Images

Post links to relevant screenshots or embed reasonable sized images on the page. (direct hotlinking lightly discouraged)

Screenshots:
Artwork:
Instruction Manual:
Promotional Material:
PCB Manual: (if applicable)


Overall Unique Characteristics

STGs are kinda like golf courses. They all look the same at first glance, but look closer and there are specific things about the title people seek. What differentiates this game from other IPs or the games before/after it? Your weapon types? Memorable bosses? Strange Artwork? Scoring System? A raccoon with giant balls?


Player Mechanics

Describe the controls, selectable ships/characters, what type of weapons you start with and what you can get it to, describe the powerup system if there is one. What is your player size hitbox? What is the enemy or bullet size hitbox? Describe unique interactions with enemies/powerups like the R-Type Force Pod, Triggerheart Exelica anchor throw, or in Geometry Wars 2 with the running through gates to make them detonate enemies.


Version & Port Differences

This section details all the known differences between the same versions of a video game across different gaming machines or different region releases. For example, Xexex Japan has a standard 1hit death like in most STGs, but the Arcade US version granted players a life bar able to take multiple hits before losing a life. Gradius 3 Arcade is often considered the hardest Gradius of all time with many extended stages, memorizor traps, and a 3D stage, while Gradius 3 SNES had a ton of edits, powerup changes, added bonus stages, slowdown, and sound tweaks. Also, feel free to use this space for known issues or tweaks found in MAME versions.


Cousins

Shmup games very similar to this one.


Demonstrations, Replays, Scores, & Superplays

Known list of good youtube/niconico captures and replay listings by player and accomplishment with links where legal. You may also list top or notable scores & scorers, known world records from Arcadia/Gamest and Twin Galaxies.


Scoring System

self-explanatory.


Tournament Recommendation

Can this game be used in score-comparison tournament play? There are several unique identifiers for determining this.

The infinite scoring loop. Often called 'infinites', 'infinite loop', or 'infinite milking'
This is when stage progression freezes until some objective is cleared. Normally this is a boss or midboss fight. What happens is certain games will have these parts where the player can continue scoring points without achieving the objective. If the game never progresses, the player can remain there and score points infinitely, breaking the competition of the game, as it is reduced to who has the longest patience instead of skill.

To determine an infinite scoring loop:
Play (1CC or credit feed) through a game in full, but at every part where stage progression freezes or boss fight encounter, evaluate the following:
Can you score points before the end of the fight?
If yes, are the ways to score these points respawning endlessly?
If yes, does the fight end after an elapsed amount of time? (Is there a boss timeout?)
If no, does the difficulty of this section noticeably increase the longer you remain at that section?
If no, you have discovered an infinite scoring loop. If yes, does the timed increasing difficulty level off, cap, or stop at some point?
If yes, you have discovered an infinite scoring loop

Infinite Checkpoint Abuse
The other infinite scoring loop type is checkpoint abuse. In videogames where dying restarts the player at a previous location (instead of instantly), often it is possible to accumulate more points to a grand total losing a life before a checkpoint than it is to simply reach the end of a stage without dying (depending on the scoring system). If it is possible for a player to obtain an extra life, die, then respawn at a previous location where points can be accumulated and obtain the extra life again, die, and repeat, this is also considered an infinite scoring loop.

Videogames with Infinite Scoring Loops without using tool assists (autofire, throttle, etc.) are recommended to be eliminated from tournament play.

Is Milking Possible? (yes, no)
Milking for score is when there are parts where stage progression freezes or boss fight encounter occurs, that the player can delay or avoid the main objective in order to obtain more points. This can slightly or dramatically increase the overall playtime on a game. Timeouts and other factors normally stop this from occurring infinitely, but knowing if a game requires milking for highest score in the name of being bored during serious play is noteworthy.

Codes, Configurations, & Achievements

Known button codes, Things that can be enabled by dip switch settings, Notable Xbox 360 Achievements or Playstation Trophys (and tricks to get them?)


Game Series

Share more detail about the franchise of the videogame in comparison to the prequels/sequels next to it.


Story

The in-game story or whatever is often written in the instruction manual. Type that out with the cutscene text. Go ahead and spoil the ending since credit feeding is easy.


Trivia, Backstory, & Wise Reviews

Fun facts that don't really go anywhere else, tell an interesting story of how this videogame came about, or share about the videogames or media this title references or other videogames or media that reference this title. Also, intelligent reviews on the shooting game are rare, so post links to great ones you know about.


Strategy

Links, guides, anything and everything talked about in the strategy & hiscore forums goes here. Also, how the Rank works, 1up locations, all that good stuff.


Shmup Term Glossary: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9665

References
http://www.triggerzone.de/gamesdb/index.php
http://shmup.wikia.com/wiki/Special:AllPages
http://www.giantbomb.com/games/?sort=alphabetical
http://shmups.system11.org/viewforum.php?f=5
http://shmups.system11.org/viewforum.php?f=2
http://www.klov.com/
http://www.arcade-history.com/
http://www.shmups.com
http://www.shmup.com
http://www.hk-stg.net/
http://www.arcade-extreme.com/
http://www.stgfan.com/
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11882
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=11597
http://www.system16.com/
http://world-of-arcades.net
http://www.arcadiamagazine.com/another/index_e.html
http://twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=44
http://www.gamengai.com/
http://www.mamedev.com/
http://www.mameworld.net/
http://cowboy.ikaruga.co.uk/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=147
http://www.underground-gamer.com/wiki/i ... Collection

~Index lists of games by abbreviations, years, platforms (possibly split by console regions), developers and publishers, subgenres, perceived difficulty, and other categorizations~

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I should probably write pages to define terms on my template megalist and pre-link them before I begin mass-posting this monstrosity.

The only part of the date that matters most is the year. The month and day can be included if you know it, but that's flexible. Year counts for a lot, and should be one of the eventual search criteria.

[malc]

you've been busy!

will have a proper read tomorrow, but on first scan, smashing. cheers ... must get to bed at a decent time.... malc

[DJ Incompetent]

Ok, no objections. It appears that template is a good one. I'll stick it in Shmupswiki. Next up:

#2: Tagging entries for future searches?

Basically, I want (people or just me) to add tags to each game article so a search engine could eventually be put in to read only the tags and make the massive name-drop list searchable by all kinds of intuitive criteria.

Here's some tag types I'm thinking of or somebody told me. 'Prolly Ixmucane2. Suggest more if you wish:

Release Year
Platform
Developer
Publisher
Subgenre (Hori, Vert, Slider, etc.)
Difficulty Style (Standard, Manic Bullet-Hell, etc.)



The problem is I'm not sure what standard I should be using to put in the tagging entries, or if a tagging structure is already in medawiki. I don't even know what this standard is really called nowadays. metatagging? meta-tag? article tagging? I'm not sure.

Here's some sites the google-fu pulled up.
http://jenn-2-point-0.blogspot.com/2006 ... awiki.html
http://www.foolnology.com/blog/arindler ... nsion.html
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Tag_extensions

If somebody can point me in the right direction or show me how it's done, that would be pretty sweet.

[crithit5000]

If you want to be dirt simple, just use MediaWiki's built in Category system. I already placed these two under the Gradius entry as a test:

[[Category:Horizontal shooters]]
[[Category:Konami games]]

More info on categories.

Edit:

I don't even know what this standard is really called nowadays. metatagging? meta-tag? article tagging? I'm not sure.

Speaking as a professional (lol), it's just lumping shit under categories just Web 2.0'ed. Actually...meta tags are a slightly different beast, as they're HTML tags containing information about a page located within the page's header structure.

[devilmanozzy]

I can't help but laugh at yet another try are starting a wiki on shmups. Why don't you just work with one of them out there? why Restart? Personally the problem I've found isn't the information, its the lack of support after a month online. People got mad at me and another user for copying information at wikipedia but simply put its not easy to build a aimless empire. Talk i've heard greatly over the last year over this, and http://shmup.wikia.com has never really gotten the care it should have. People on wikia instead all have built up wikis on different series such as Gradius, Darius, Touhou, and soon to be added R-type and Raiden. I'd also conclude that out of the wikis listed here, there are 5 active users at them. Why waste your time starting another wiki when people are doing better elsewhere? If this is a control issue, I can very easy tell you, that this wont get far. People don't like being told exactly what can and can't be done at a wiki. With the list of rules your adding, there wont be any interest by the time the front page is started. Basically if you don't loosen the rules, your not get any results. People add things to wiki's because they love the subject matter. Too many rules will turn them away.

I've been at wikia over a year, and it takes more than a vision to get a great wiki. You need lots of support and time to it. I've spent endless hours working on Darius wiki over the last 2 months, and only now am I getting hits.

[DJ Incompetent]

If you want to be dirt simple, just use MediaWiki's built in Category system.
More info on categories.

Hm, easy enough. Methinks I'll roll with that unless there's some massive drawback I should know about. Thanks, man.

Speaking as a professional (lol), it's just lumping shit under categories just Web 2.0'ed. Actually...meta tags are a slightly different beast, as they're HTML tags containing information about a page located within the page's header structure.

I wasn't sure meta tags were getting a second definition now besides the usual html indexing business. Good to know they aren't.

I can't help but laugh at yet another try are starting a wiki on shmups.

Yeah a'ight, I'll bite.

Thread Derail: What's the point?

Why don't you just work with one of them out there? why Restart?

The intention isn't to combat other wikis. The point of it is to use a tool to fix shmups.com. triggerzone.de and shmup.com are pretty much the great resources. That's awesome, but nothing is really in English. I don't believe we have a STG namedrop & info list of everything in English. I'm out to fix that. The namedrops part can be completed by myself, since I'm pretty sure I know how to get the four massive title lists that add up to every STG videogame. If the community fails to do all the stuff we've been complaining about wanting to do for 5+ years, then the namedrops with basic twitter'd info are all that will probably be done. I think we got different goals, sir. Nonthless, most if not all the info I'm looking for is spread around to mostly the same seven-ish sites. Harvesting those bits without it looking like all kinds of plagiarism is pretty feasible.

You say "one of them out there." What other sites are you referring to?

Personally the problem I've found isn't the information, its the lack of support after a month online. People got mad at me and another user for copying information at wikipedia but simply put its not easy to build a aimless empire.

Can you tell me more about this and/or point me to the drama conversation? Who the complainer was, etc? I'd like to read the details on this one. Was the wikipedia guy's argument basically that your wikia site is trying to earn money through ads for his work?

Talk i've heard greatly over the last year over this, and http://shmup.wikia.com has never really gotten the care it should have. People on wikia instead all have built up wikis on different series such as Gradius, Darius, Touhou, and soon to be added R-type and Raiden. I'd also conclude that out of the wikis listed here, there are 5 active users at them. Why waste your time starting another wiki when people are doing better elsewhere?

Yep, you're pretty right. But let me ask you. What have the Wikia site administrators done for your cause? Did they create all the custom wiki layout with the front page organization and searching? Or did they just stick a shitload of ads on a canvas and hoped people would get to work while wikia pockets the ad revenue? C'mon. Six+ ads on any page at that site? Yeeesh.

Or are the Wikia people just starving independent contributors who are praying to make back server hosting costs and domain fees 'n such? This guy tells me they're just an IGN of wikis. But hey, you've spent a year with them, so what do you know on them?

Because hell, if Wikia company are just useless middlemen, you wanna open up debate to the five contributors to port everything over so you guys can contribute ad free? *shrug*

If this is a control issue, I can very easy tell you, that this wont get far. People don't like being told exactly what can and can't be done at a wiki. With the list of rules your adding, there wont be any interest by the time the front page is started. Basically if you don't loosen the rules, your not get any results. People add things to wiki's because they love the subject matter. Too many rules will turn them away.

About this. Um, what exactly am I trying to restrict here when I'm trying to compile a category list of every piece of relevant info? Are you saying by posting a template to every article I'd be intimidating other users into not writing at all? I thought I was turning the site into a 'fill in the blanks' comprehensive checklist instead of the aimless "do whatever the hell you want" Where everybody thinks the story is at the top of the list of things people want to know about a STG. It never is... It never is.

I've been at wikia over a year, and it takes more than a vision to get a great wiki. You need lots of support and time to it. I've spent endless hours working on Darius wiki over the last 2 months, and only now am I getting hits.

Yes it does. yes it does. I'm pestimistic as well, but I was thinking wherever the information side of my project ends up, I'd take the time to port the game name drops with my template over to your site. But since I'm "adding too many rules", wouldn't I be banned at your wikia site for trying to add a template to all future articles and bumping your game listings from 100 to over 1000?

[devilmanozzy]

Talk i've heard greatly over the last year over this, and http://shmup.wikia.com has never really gotten the care it should have. People on wikia instead all have built up wikis on different series such as Gradius, Darius, Touhou, and soon to be added R-type and Raiden. I'd also conclude that out of the wikis listed here, there are 5 active users at them. Why waste your time starting another wiki when people are doing better elsewhere?

Yep, you're pretty right. But let me ask you. What have the Wikia site administrators done for your cause? Did they create all the custom wiki layout with the front page organization and searching? Or did they just stick a shitload of ads on a canvas and hoped people would get to work while wikia pockets the ad revenue? C'mon. Six+ ads on any page at that site? Yeeesh.

Or are the Wikia people just starving independent contributors who are praying to make back server hosting costs and domain fees 'n such? This guy tells me they're just an IGN of wikis. But hey, you've spent a year with them, so what do you know on them?

Because hell, if Wikia company are just useless middlemen, you wanna open up debate to the five contributors to port everything over so you guys can contribute ad free? *shrug*

The good of wikia is when people search for the articles that are made there, will find them on a wiki plus topic name, at least at google and bing. Yes there is ads and some are annoying, but atleast people from other wikias will find that wiki and be able to edit it without signing in *again*. Sorry but there are more subjects to work with.

If this is a control issue, I can very easy tell you, that this wont get far. People don't like being told exactly what can and can't be done at a wiki. With the list of rules your adding, there wont be any interest by the time the front page is started. Basically if you don't loosen the rules, your not get any results. People add things to wiki's because they love the subject matter. Too many rules will turn them away.

About this. Um, what exactly am I trying to restrict here when I'm trying to compile a category list of every piece of relevant info? Are you saying by posting a template to every article I'd be intimidating other users into not writing at all? I thought I was turning the site into a 'fill in the blanks' comprehensive checklist instead of the aimless "do whatever the hell you want" Where everybody thinks the story is at the top of the list of things people want to know about a STG. It never is... It never is.

Make as much as you can optional. That is my basic advice. Some of the fan games don't got much but the actually gameplay to begin with. It gives a easy way out so editors can add what they really know, and leave the rest for later. Wiki's are living things you know. Someone later will add to it.

I've been at wikia over a year, and it takes more than a vision to get a great wiki. You need lots of support and time to it. I've spent endless hours working on Darius wiki over the last 2 months, and only now am I getting hits.

Yes it does. yes it does. I'm pestimistic as well, but I was thinking wherever the information side of my project ends up, I'd take the time to port the game name drops with my template over to your site. But since I'm "adding too many rules", wouldn't I be banned at your wikia site for trying to add a template to all future articles and bumping your game listings from 100 to over 1000?

Not sure what you mean by the last part. If you mean editing templates for more fields, it depends on the admin(s) of a wiki. That is true of any place on the web. As for banning people, I ban mostly spammers. I do some undo's tho.

Anyways I'm not going to rain on your parade anymore than this. If you believe you will be supported, and you make things easy to edit and understand, then you should start out well.

[DJ Incompetent]

I've been at wikia over a year, and it takes more than a vision to get a great wiki. You need lots of support and time to it. I've spent endless hours working on Darius wiki over the last 2 months, and only now am I getting hits.

Yes it does. yes it does. I'm pessimistic as well, but I was thinking wherever the information side of my project ends up, I'd take the time to port the game name drops with my template over to your site. But since I'm "adding too many rules", wouldn't I be banned at your wikia site for trying to add a template to all future articles and bumping your game listings from 100 to over 1000?

Not sure what you mean by the last part. If you mean editing templates for more fields, it depends on the admin(s) of a wiki. That is true of any place on the web. As for banning people, I ban mostly spammers. I do some undo's tho.

Nah I meant going on a spree adding new game titles and just the template. No additional unique game info until later. Do you guys have a dedicated policy to not add a game to the list unless information on the game is also entered?


Thanks for the advice instead of flamewarring it. It's appreciated.

[devilmanozzy]

Nah I meant going on a spree adding new game titles and just the template. No additional unique game info until later. Do you guys have a dedicated policy to not add a game to the list unless information on the game is also entered?

Never really get that, tho I have been known to start a section with only a image, a bit of info for a infobox and thats it. I'll leave a spot for story, gameplay, and trivia. I think they call that seeding. It's a good practice to start pages so others know where the article is, and so its not such a blank slate. Some users add a lot to a article, while others add maybe one sentence. Gotta work with both types. But always add a {{stub}} tag to those types. Infact, you should address improvement tags at some point.

-stub. needs development
-Need more images
-article needs rewording
-section needs attention
-candidate for deletion

Also with all the templates and tags, make articles that show all these and how to use them.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page this is Transformers wiki which is a wiki currently not part of wikia. They have a well put together wiki. Check out how they have overcome the issues that wikis have.

This section address what I'm talking about with tags http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Help:Contents

[Rob]

Difficulty Style: (Standard, Semi-Hell, Memorizor, Manic Bullet-Hell)

I have no idea what standard and semi-hell means. This should be clear enough through type, year and developer. The description of the game ("Overall Unique Characteristics"/"Player Mechanics") should cover everything if it isn't.

Metacritic Score:

The idea here is to provide useful info, right? Posting a metacritic score validates the crap reviews that figure into a metacritic score and would also apply to few games.

[malc]

hi chaps

following developments avidly!

Just a few comments and thoughts from me, although I don't have any influence on direction, this is DJ's project.

I'll put whatever cash required in to keep it ad-free, and whatever resources it needs if it grows (shmups.com is back to ad-free, now its not on Classic Gaming any more. Or, classic gaming is no more, whatever.)

This comes under the banner of a shmups.com project, which although a bit mothbally, was the first, if maybe not the best anymore. And hopefully, can draw upon the best shmups forum out there, and people in it, to populate it with info.

Plus, I have faith, that once it reaches a certain critical mass of seeding, people here will pounce on it and start filling in loads of lovely stuff. People have been crying out for a way to user-contribute to shmups.com and this can be the way to do it.#

Plus again, I don't think this absolutely needs to be like wikipedia in that they dont allow personal expression and opinion and is dry as hell. The Darius wiki is lovely, and imagine that kind of thing happening for all shmups. It's a single source resource, which will might replace shmups.com in its focus, so rather than a fresh start on yet another site, its a reboot for an old and dingy but well established one. At least, that was the idea, wasn't it?

All kudos to DJ for taking on this project, what is probably seeming like a thankless task, but I do hope you are enjoying getting your teeth into. I'd love to be more involved, but I have more pressing concerns I'm afraid these days...

I do hope the wider shmups forum community latches onto it at some point, the point where there's a great stub template in place and its a case of yup, fill in the blanks.

bed for me... nitenite malc

[evil_ash_xero]

I think you should probably have Game Rankings over Metacritic or both. GR has a lot better sites on it. Also, Famitsu scores wouldn't be bad either.

[devilmanozzy]

Time to shake off the mothballs and try to save the idea

Right now, I'm looking into getting the wiki off the ground. I am looking through this thread and the other, trying to piece together what the outcome should be.

I want to make a few things clear. This Wiki I view from a slightly different point of view. There is already interests in a direction and style to this wiki. I am not planning on adding my own content and therefore I'll be avoiding the "he is building his wiki here now" argument. My point of view is get the car (wiki) running, then see if there are any takers to get content there. Also, this is still DJ Incompetent's baby so to speak, and my only real interests are pushing it til it is running. I'm hoping that people will be vocal as I start pushing it forward. I want it to be open to add reviews and such as soon as possible.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I wouldnt mind writting about a shmup or 2 since atm it has a serious lack of content