Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Solarus »

evil_ash_xero wrote:I remember back in the olden days right after I got FF VI(III). I was so impressed with it. Then came VII, and although I didn't like it as much as VI, I was floored. VIII was SO small in scope, and short, and had a sucky ass battle system, that I was really disappointed. It wasn't the worst game or anything, but it followed up two masterpieces, and it was just sorta there.
I dunno, I still found FFVIII to be a high quality game. The closest thing toa "fault" that it had, was it tried to appeal to the same audience that liked FFVI and VII, and since they were getting older, felt it was necessary to "mature" the setting and story a bit. In other words, it ended up having more "real" and less "fantasy", which pissed a lot of people off. The game itself is still extremely good though, and I personally liked a lot of the changes in it.

FFIX though... Blargh.
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Enhasa »

You can't get two people to agree on where FF jumped the shark (if ever). People argue for 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and probably 13 even though it's not even out yet. I'm going to buck the trend and go with 2 on the NES. :? FF1 outclassed DQ1, but they caught up quickly. I am Enix Fan X! ^_~ so you don't want to go there.
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Strider77 »

This is exactly why it failed: they were trying to do this.
huh?
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by ZOM »

Solarus wrote: FFIX though... Blargh.
Oh no you didn't!
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Solarus »

ZOM wrote:
Solarus wrote: FFIX though... Blargh.
Oh no you didn't!
ohhh that I did! *throws flame shield away* This is one thing I don't care about being flamed over. That game was straight up crap.
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Matsunaga »

evil_ash_xero wrote:I remember back in the olden days right after I got FF VI(III). I was so impressed with it. Then came VII, and although I didn't like it as much as VI, I was floored. VIII was SO small in scope, and short, and had a sucky ass battle system, that I was really disappointed. It wasn't the worst game or anything, but it followed up two masterpieces, and it was just sorta there.
On what planet was VIII short? It was a hell of a lot longer than VII and IX. Sure, the story and characters were kinda boring, but it has plenty of content, and things to do. I got 100 hours out of it. I wouldn't call any FF game a disappointment, except XI. I want all those days I spent playing it back!
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by gs68 »

Initial D Arcade Stage 4.

But then again nobody gives a shit about arcade racing games =P
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Earth, I think. Then again, it may have been Earth 2, by DC standards....


Anyway, if you didn't take all the side missions, and work on leveling up all the time, I remember it being a LOT shorter than VI and VII. But I haven't played it since it came out.
Matsunaga wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:I remember back in the olden days right after I got FF VI(III). I was so impressed with it. Then came VII, and although I didn't like it as much as VI, I was floored. VIII was SO small in scope, and short, and had a sucky ass battle system, that I was really disappointed. It wasn't the worst game or anything, but it followed up two masterpieces, and it was just sorta there.
On what planet was VIII short? It was a hell of a lot longer than VII and IX. Sure, the story and characters were kinda boring, but it has plenty of content, and things to do. I got 100 hours out of it. I wouldn't call any FF game a disappointment, except XI. I want all those days I spent playing it back!
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Strider77 »

Initial D Arcade Stage 4.
I still actually liked that game though.
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by StoofooEsq »

Strider77 wrote:
Rob wrote:This is exactly why it failed: they were trying to do this.
huh?
What I think Rob is referring (part of, at least) to is TF6's apparent need to bring up several elements to earlier TF games in the forms of stage designs and bosses, along with more subtle ways like bullet patterns. A Shmup's handful of references to past games in a series hardly ever bothers me, but the rate and large amount being thrown out by TF6 was particularly obnoxious to me. As if the developers felt some need to constantly remind players that they were still playing a Thunder Force in the first place.
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Rob »

Yeah, read the interview with the guy in charge of the project. Modern classic Gradius V wasn't a real Gradius, and this reanimated corpse was his idea of a sequel (all the worst parts of 3 and 5 mixed together). If it wasn't for this guy, it sounded like Treasure could've been involved with the game. Imagine a G5-quality TF sequel. Makes it worse, huh?
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Rob wrote:
Enhasa wrote:Rogue Galaxy was a new IP, and Japanese love Level-5 because of DQ8...
This is why I bought it. Unbelievably bad game, so they are right. Since the thread is completely off-topic, I'm sure Legendary Axe 2 deserves a mention.
I like Legendary Axe 2 though. :B
At least the silly ending, zombies, impossible difficulty level, and uniformly moody levels. SURPRISE ASSASSINATION!

If this list was put out in the US they could've added "Strider II" - the Genesis one.

I always sort of liked parts of Double Dragon III, but I creditfeed those games. Buy-in for special moves is arghtastic indeed.

Axelay failz as a sequel to Crisis Force.
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Herr Schatten »

Rob wrote:If it wasn't for this guy, it sounded like Treasure could've been involved with the game. Imagine a G5-quality TF sequel. Makes it worse, huh?
Not exactly. It would probably be 3 hours long and have unskipable 'epic' cutscenes in the middle of each level. <shudder>
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Rob »

Three hours of Thunder Force would be amazing, especially with overhead stages.
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

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Imagine a G5-quality TF sequel.
folks bitch about G5 on here also for that very reason.... I have read on here quite a few times that G5 blows b/c they ditched all the level themes blah, blah, blah.

Still I like both TF6 and G5.... I think folks let their imaginations take their expectations to a WAY to high a place on TF6.
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Smraedis »

I think Time Crisis 4 is more than disappointing, when compared to any games in its series.

I found TF6 to be nothing much, and nothing bad, but I haven't played the earlier games that much, so I didn't have any big expectations. I think the game had some hype before release, which didn't help.


Like many say, these lists are pretty pointless, this just shows what some people didn't like :roll:
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Rob »

Strider77 wrote:folks bitch about G5 on here also for that very reason.... I have read on here quite a few times that G5 blows b/c they ditched all the level themes blah, blah, blah.
"A few" complaints are irrelevant. No one would ever consider TF6 as the best side-scrolling shooter ever released, but that is where G5 places in the forum's top 25. That's the difference between trying to do better than the past and trying to recreate it.
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

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I loved G5.... I like TF6 also though... but I think I didn't let myself get hyped to the point of let down.
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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Post by Limbrooke »

Herr Schatten wrote:
Rob wrote:If it wasn't for this guy, it sounded like Treasure could've been involved with the game. Imagine a G5-quality TF sequel. Makes it worse, huh?
Not exactly. It would probably be 3 hours long and have unskipable 'epic' cutscenes in the middle of each level. <shudder>
It just wouldn't be shmups without gross deliberate exaggerations and derailment of original topics. I'm not complaining, mearly observing. It's a real battle whenever someone holds up the flag for Gradius 5 in terms of being a good game. Although any game Treasure has had a hand in developing that's been a scrolling shooting game seems to draw ire so it's rather predictable.

I'm disappointed TF6 is cited by this magazine as the most disappointing sequel but that's not my opinion so row, row, row your boat...
TF6 was a letdown but surely not an awful game. Could've used another stage or two at least and overall difficulty could've been ramped a bit too.
That's the difference between trying to do better than the past and trying to recreate it.
This makes a lot of sense to me regarding TF6. It's more of a throw-back than an evolution and consequently that's likely what turned so many people off. Most (not all) who're fans of TF graduated from TF3 and TF5 last century, and if anything the next level in schooling is what should've been with TF6. Instead it was akin to opening a time capsule and being held back a grade. G5's flaws aside, perhaps most glaringly in some fans eyes not being developed by Konami, it's a game that takes a step further for challenge, score, and visuals. It's hard to say TF6, being released in late 2008 (a good 11 years after TF5) excels or delivers in any of those categories.

I still like it and I'm going to keep my copy around for a while thanks to some degree of replayability. I'm a sucker for TF and perhaps as some might say mediocre games even.
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Post by Herr Schatten »

Limbrooke wrote:Although any game Treasure has had a hand in developing that's been a scrolling shooting game seems to draw ire so it's rather predictable.
It's no surprise at all, that's just the nature of all of Treasure's games. Either you think their approach of including everything and the kitchen sink is pure genius, or you find it annoying and wish for a more focused gameplay experience. IMO, having an abundance of creativity is not necessarily a good thing if you're a game designer.
Limbrooke wrote:G5's flaws aside [...] it's a game that takes a step further for challenge, score, and visuals.
Agreed on challenge and score, but G5's visuals are in no way a step forward from Gaiden.
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Rob wrote:Yeah, read the interview with the guy in charge of the project. Modern classic Gradius V wasn't a real Gradius, and this reanimated corpse was his idea of a sequel (all the worst parts of 3 and 5 mixed together). If it wasn't for this guy, it sounded like Treasure could've been involved with the game. Imagine a G5-quality TF sequel. Makes it worse, huh?

It wouldn't have played tremendously like TF, but it probably would have been great. They would have had to get someone else for the music though. And maybe someone else rather than G.Rev for the backgrounds, since I would have liked to see more organic backgrounds in TF. That was always one of my favorite things about it.

The grief Treasure gets is really in the minority. Look how high they always place. GV is basically loved by most, as is Ikaruga and RS. Of course there are some that hate them, but they certainly aren't the majority. I have some pretty big problems with RS, even though I think it has a lot going for it. It's really sad that this guy didn't let them do TF6, since it seems like that may have been the last shmup that dude at Treasure would have made.
Maybe he can join G.Rev or something?
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Post by Limbrooke »

Herr Schatten wrote:It's no surprise at all, that's just the nature of all of Treasure's games. Either you think their approach of including everything and the kitchen sink is pure genius, or you find it annoying and wish for a more focused gameplay experience. IMO, having an abundance of creativity is not necessarily a good thing if you're a game designer.
Most Treasure games include many facets and I can say to a degree Treasure games seem at first as though they were designed to assault the senses and really overload the player. Most, not all.

I think in this regard, Gradius 5 makes the best use out of the new option type system and as I've seen in replays (as I've yet to clear it myself) it fits in quite well with many of the sections of the game. The change in direction of scroll and different types of patterns and difficulty to be found later on feel very much the mold of Treasure, and with Treasure having a staple of games infested with boss fights it's not surprising the ones found here are up to par and plentiful. To cite my own issues, it will simply rest in the fact it's a considerably long game, although I find most of the Gradius games can suffer a similar fate whereas only Gradius 3 comes close to 5 in length. That's not to say it's an isolated incident, personally I find many Gradius games drag on too much or often have dull entry stages. I speak again for myself when I say if I need to spend more than 40 minutes to clear a loop that's a long time and as I've seen pardon Gradius, only Gradius 2 can manage a quick clear, although again is plagued by unbalanced stage length, stage risk/interest and stage scoring. This again is hardly isolated as a quick look on Gradius 3 may serve.

As for Treasure, the horse representing Ikaruga has been beaten to fine gourmet dog food and as such I'm not amplifying anything by saying Treasure took a good idea from Radiant Silvergun and made it far more flexible and expansive. This game is a great example of a Treasure (perhaps specifically Iuchi and Nakagawa) game that allows the player based on their means (comfort or skill) to choose their own end. It still has the familiar onslaught of eye-hand co-ordination found as early as the beginning of Chapter 2, while most prevalent in Chapter 3 and 4 but it's not strictly forced 99.9% of time. Simple and appealing idea with options for beginner to advanced execution. To this end, Ikaruga is very focused with what it tries to achieve, and it's far less convoluted and more flexible than Project RS1. Gradius 5 perhaps due to length, no checkpoints, and the cut-scene tries to do too much but it does cover most of the Gradius canon and again with Treasure being Treasure and no longer being Konami it was never guaranteed all bases were to be covered (Moai stage, less factory/installation stages, etc..) if Konami definitely wasn't designing the game themselves.
Herr Schatten wrote:Agreed on challenge and score, but G5's visuals are in no way a step forward from Gaiden.
This is comparing apples to oranges. Gaiden, pardon Generation/Galaxies/Advance and Rebirth was the last 2D based Gradius and it does look good. It shows the dedication and direction the series had taken since it's inception. Gradius 5, with some help from G.REV, can in no way be denied the fact it's one of the best looking 3D scrolling shooters made to date. I think this can be countered with the aspect a lot of what is seen in the backgrounds is factory/base type and is stale. What isn't in a base does look fantastic and as Treasure has done time and time again, the graphics lend themselves to their high standards. The only aspect I think about between the two is the odd nature that both Gaiden and 5 were bound to home consoles.
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Post by Herr Schatten »

Limbrooke wrote:
Herr Schatten wrote:Agreed on challenge and score, but G5's visuals are in no way a step forward from Gaiden.
This is comparing apples to oranges.
I should have made myself more clear. I wasn't talking about the technical aspects of the graphics. In that regard, G5 is stellar, at least in the non-organic bits (the organic ones look undeniably poor). I was talking about its artistic merits, which can't hold a candle to Gaiden (or G2 for that matter), in my opinion at least.
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Marc »

Well seeing as this has ventured way off topic, I'd go with:

Burnout 3 - for putting my favourite racing game through the MTV/EA mixer and ruining it totally.
Prince Of Persia: Warrior Within - pretty much the same reason.
Rock & Roll Racing 2 - for being a travesty that wasn't ft to share the same title.
Crazy Taxi 2 - I remember gray, lots and lots of gray square corners.
Resident Evil 2 - for being way, way too easy, seriously a £50.00 game finished in one afternoon?
Splatterhouse 2 - like the original, but slower and poorly designed.
Rastan 2 - as above
Monkey Island 4 - which finally raped the dead corpse of a much loved series.
1080 Avalanche - because it followed up a pretty serious racer with a dumbed-down impression of one
Planet Harriers - because I've never been able to play the f*****g thing!
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Limbrooke wrote:This makes a lot of sense to me regarding TF6. It's more of a throw-back than an evolution and consequently that's likely what turned so many people off. Most (not all) who're fans of TF graduated from TF3 and TF5 last century, and if anything the next level in schooling is what should've been with TF6. Instead it was akin to opening a time capsule and being held back a grade. G5's flaws aside, perhaps most glaringly in some fans eyes not being developed by Konami, it's a game that takes a step further for challenge, score, and visuals. It's hard to say TF6, being released in late 2008 (a good 11 years after TF5) excels or delivers in any of those categories.
if it was released in the States, none of this would apply or matter
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Solarus »

Marc wrote:Well seeing as this has ventured way off topic, I'd go with:

Burnout 3 - for putting my favourite racing game through the MTV/EA mixer and ruining it totally.
Prince Of Persia: Warrior Within - pretty much the same reason.
Rock & Roll Racing 2 - for being a travesty that wasn't ft to share the same title.
Crazy Taxi 2 - I remember gray, lots and lots of gray square corners.
Resident Evil 2 - for being way, way too easy, seriously a £50.00 game finished in one afternoon?
Splatterhouse 2 - like the original, but slower and poorly designed.
Rastan 2 - as above
Monkey Island 4 - which finally raped the dead corpse of a much loved series.
1080 Avalanche - because it followed up a pretty serious racer with a dumbed-down impression of one
Planet Harriers - because I've never been able to play the f*****g thing!
I can see reasoning behind most of those, but even with the explanation, RE2? :S It's pretty much universally recognized as the 2nd best game in the series (behind RE4 anyway. Many find it better, although I still personally think RE:CV to be the best RE game). It had 4 different scenarios with different gameplay (although admittedly both scenario As and Bs were the same in most parts), numerous unlockables, tight controls, an interesting storyline, Voice acting that wasn't complete crap like the first one (still not amazing, but whatever :P), a great soundtrack, and Mr. X.
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Marc »

You're right in everything you say and Resi 2 is more a personal one to me anything I'd expect anyone to agree with, but my overriding memory was of staring in utter bafflement at the ending screen about five hours after I'd gotten the game home. I enjoyed playing it, but I couldn't understand how the sequel to a game I'd found so deliciously frustrating first time round could possibly be such a cakewalk.
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by evil_ash_xero »

I just got a chance to sit down with this game, and I can't believe you have all your weapons from the start. That's just a big mistake right there...

On an unrelated note: ROB, when are you going to put up some more of those PRO REVIEWS? I just watched the TF6 one again, and that was some good stuff.

Have you retired?
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Re: Gamega says TF6 is No.1 of the most disappointing sequels

Post by Rob »

evil_ash_xero wrote:I just got a chance to sit down with this game, and I can't believe you have all your weapons from the start. That's just a big mistake right there...
Use a different ship. Might have to unlock it, can't remember. re: Pro Reviews. Don't know, maybe the next time something comes out that makes me want to talk about it (for any reason).
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