DLC and the future of gaming (split from Darius Burst)

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Anyone know if this will be a UMD retail release or download only?

I didn't consider they could make it download only. In which case, I'm not buying it.

[bcass]

I don't buy games I can't touch.

Wow, definitely your loss, you're missing out on a lot of great titles.

[cools]

Considering how many great titles are available that can be touched too, it's no real hardship.

[bcass]

Considering how many great titles are available that can be touched too, it's no real hardship.

Some of the best games this gen are download-only. Within the next 10 years there will be no such thing as retail games. You can quote me on that.

[ZOM]

Considering how many great titles are available that can be touched too, it's no real hardship.

Some of the best games this gen are download-only. Within the next 10 years there will be no such thing as retail games. You can quote me on that.

Looks like I will quit gaming somewhere within the next 10 years then. I just am not ready to support such shady business, might be a good thing for publishers but for the consumer it sure isn't; what will you do after you wipe your HDD / HDD breaks over 4 times?

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Considering how many great titles are available that can be touched too, it's no real hardship.

Some of the best games this gen are download-only. Within the next 10 years there will be no such thing as retail games. You can quote me on that.

Looks like I will quit gaming somewhere within the next 10 years then. I just am not ready to support such shady business, might be a good thing for publishers but for the consumer it sure isn't; what will you do after you wipe your HDD / HDD breaks over 4 times?

High 5, man!!! I also like owning my games rather than being at the mercy of devs. I bet 5-10 years from now devs will make some excuse to deny you the redownloads they promised in case your HD goes kapuff. In addition to that, I can't resell downloadable games so money I spend is permanently lost if I buy a turd. Having games on CD/cartridges is much safer since losing one disc doesn't mean your whole collection goes to hell and selling them in the future might get you mucho money.

[Dragoforce]

^The two gentlemen above me speaks the truth.

[bcass]

what will you do after you wipe your HDD / HDD breaks over 4 times?

It's possible to make backups of all your games on all 3 current-gen consoles.

I can't resell downloadable games

Yes you can, you can sell the gamertag/PSN ID that the game was purchased with. The Wii has been hacked so you can easily backup anything you buy from their download service. The download-only future is guaranteed to happen partly because re-selling is made less accessible. The industry makes nothing from the re-selling of games and has been the bane of the industry for a long time now, what with most of retail profits coming from re-selling. Rest assured that the industry wants to regain that lost profit, and it will do so by eliminating retail.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

what will you do after you wipe your HDD / HDD breaks over 4 times?

It's possible to make backups of all your games on all 3 current-gen consoles.

I can't resell downloadable games

Yes you can, you can sell the gamertag/PSN ID that the game was purchased with. The Wii has been hacked so you can easily backup anything you buy from their download service. The download-only future is guaranteed to happen partly because re-selling is made less accessible. The industry makes nothing from the re-selling of games and has been the bane of the industry for a long time now, what with most of retail profits coming from re-selling. Rest assured that the industry wants to regain that lost profit, and it will do so by eliminating retail.

Selling your whole account to sell a game is like selling your house and all your belongings to get rid of your car. Plus, a lot of personal information is tied to those accounts. Too much trouble to sell a game for most people to bother.

As for backups, you're on your own with most services and it involves a lot of underground work. Suppose it was somewhat easy like with the PC. You still have to get a backup drive equivalent in size to the one you have in it (say 500GB like me,) invest in backup software and have the patience to backup regularly because it takes a lot of time. It's very expensive and time consuming. I'd take each game in a separate medium anytime.

In the end, though, nothing beats having a physical copy of a game. Buying a download voucher is uber lame!!! Imagine how excited a kid would be to receive a voucher to download the newest Pokemon game instead of a box with cool art, a manual and a cartridge. One of the lamest things I've ever seen is Gamestop selling a "boxed" version of Marvel vs Capcom 2 with a code inside .

[Matsunaga]

Considering how many great titles are available that can be touched too, it's no real hardship.

Some of the best games this gen are download-only. Within the next 10 years there will be no such thing as retail games. You can quote me on that.

Looks like I will quit gaming somewhere within the next 10 years then. I just am not ready to support such shady business, might be a good thing for publishers but for the consumer it sure isn't; what will you do after you wipe your HDD / HDD breaks over 4 times?

You can re-download anything you ever downloaded on PSN, whenever you want. It's easy.. Don't be scared of the future.

[ZOM]

You can re-download anything you ever downloaded on PSN, whenever you want. It's easy.. Don't be scared of the future.

There was talk about every PSN game being downloadable a max of 5 times. I'm confused.

Another thing to consider is, do we really know if those games we paid are still downloadable in say 10 years? Also, Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft can just change terms of use at will and shutdown/clean servers.
I'm surprised seeing support for digital distribution in this forum, seeing as most of the games we like to play here fall exactly into the "old used games" category.

Eitherway, I want a case and booklet with nice artwork with my games.period


EDIT: looks like we're good at derailing threads

[kid aphex]

not to digress even further from darius, but the future of this entire world is digital. games are the first economy to make the transition---an oft overlooked fact

[THE]

You can re-download anything you ever downloaded on PSN, whenever you want. It's easy.. Don't be scared of the future.

So, you guys think PSN,XBLA and you name it will be available in 10 years from now? Can you still download arcade games for your original xbox? How many of the old games can be still played online?

Last time I looked those companies were share holding companies, do you think the shareholders will accept a loss in their shares and dividend just because some hard core freaks want to play Lolita Label 1.5 10 years from now?

I rather think not, while it's more efficient to drop 10% of the workforce to increase their stock value, shutting down old shit helps too on a smaller scale and neither Joe Madden, Joe Halo nor Joe GTA will care about it anyway.

[bcass]

Selling your whole account to sell a game is like selling your house and all your belongings to get rid of your car. Plus, a lot of personal information is tied to those accounts. Too much trouble to sell a game for most people to bother.

All personal information can be removed from any PSN/XBL account easily. The way round having to sell your entire collection would be to create an account for every game you download (or create an account for each game you are not sure you will want to keep). Not ideal, but the re-selling of download games *is* possible.

As for backups, you're on your own with most services and it involves a lot of underground work.

With the PS3 and the 360 it's as simple as buying another HDD or a memory stick/card and copying the files across to them. On the Wii you can simply use an SD/SDHC card and copy your files across to it manually. No real hardship in any instance, and hardly 'underground' work.

Suppose it was somewhat easy like with the PC. You still have to get a backup drive equivalent in size to the one you have in it (say 500GB like me,) invest in backup software and have the patience to backup regularly because it takes a lot of time.

Not if you do an incremental backup.

In the end, though, nothing beats having a physical copy of a game. Buying a download voucher is uber lame!!! Imagine how excited a kid would be to receive a voucher to download the newest Pokemon game instead of a box with cool art, a manual and a cartridge. One of the lamest things I've ever seen is Gamestop selling a "boxed" version of Marvel vs Capcom 2 with a code inside .

I consider the vast majority of game packaging (even most of the Japanese stuff) to be nothing more than superficial junk. To me, it is the games that matter, and how well they play, not some crappy peice of plastic that just clutters-up ones environment. The convenience of having your full library of games there, ready to be played at the press of a button without having to handle delicate discs is a far more desirable prospect. Anyway, this argument is completely futile, all games software in the next 5-10 years will be download-only whether people like it or not. The benefits and the cost savings are just far too substantial to the industry for it not to happen.

[bcass]

So, you guys think PSN,XBLA and you name it will be available in 10 years from now?

It's in their best interests, since there will always be a new generation of players who will be interested in buying the old stuff, and keeping a file on a server is a hell of a lot cheaper than manufacturing discs and boxes and paying for physical distribution.

Can you still download arcade games for your original xbox? How many of the old games can be still played online?

If you login to Live with your original Xbox then you can still get that old stuff. You can also play the old games online too although there won't be many people online unless you're playing something like Halo 2 which still has a sizable community of players.

Last time I looked those companies were share holding companies, do you think the shareholders will accept a loss in their shares and dividend just because some hard core freaks want to play Lolita Label 1.5 10 years from now?

I rather think not, while it's more efficient to drop 10% of the workforce to increase their stock value, shutting down old shit helps too on a smaller scale and neither Joe Madden, Joe Halo nor Joe GTA will care about it anyway.

What!? You're mixing-up two things here - digital distribution and online play. Digital distribution only involves storing a file on a server.

[Ex-Cyber]

I'm not against online delivery in principle, but the way it's done in practice is ridiculous. I would support online delivery that:

1) Doesn't carry any form of individual-machine-specific DRM or Internet activation. A locally-checked serial number scheme is annoying, but it's not a deal-breaker. It should be possible to straightforwardly back the game up to CD-R/DVD-R/external HDD and reinstall it without incident (even when -- some might say especially when -- your machine/OS has changed), without relying on the company to maintain activation services. This isn't specific to online delivery, but it seems to be especially prevalent there.

2) Allows selling individual games to other people in accordance with copyright law and the first sale doctrine.

3) Doesn't allow anyone to reach into the customer's machine and delete things. Amazon already had a minor PR disaster over this with the Kindle (for extra hilarity points, one of the titles they remotely deleted was Nineteen Eighty-Four).

4) Doesn't require customers to have a special client installed and/or an account on some kind of "platform". This is probably closely related to the previous points, in that anything complying with them could easily be delivered via a standard browser.

5) Actually discounts games after they've been out for a while.

There might be a handful of games that are sold this way, but the vast majority fail on at least two of these points.

It's possible to make backups of all your games on all 3 current-gen consoles.

Not in any meaningful way. You might back up the data itself, but it won't let you back up the DRM key/certificate/whatever required to use it. Even if you could, that key is tied to your individual machine anyway, which sort of defeats the purpose of a backup when the original medium is built into the machine.

There was talk about every PSN game being downloadable a max of 5 times. I'm confused.

My understanding is that it can be downloaded/activated on a maximum of 5 different consoles, but can be re-downloaded an unlimited number of times on each of those consoles.

All personal information can be removed from any PSN/XBL account easily.

Not quite. Oddly enough, the PSN account editor won't let you change your gender. The terms of use for PSN/XBL prohibit selling your account anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

So, you guys think PSN,XBLA and you name it will be available in 10 years from now?

It's in their best interests

Ask Alan Greenspan how well "it's in their best interests" works for predicting companies' behavior.

[bcass]

It's possible to make backups of all your games on all 3 current-gen consoles.

Not in any meaningful way. You might back up the data itself, but it won't let you back up the DRM key/certificate/whatever required to use it. Even if you could, that key is tied to your individual machine anyway, which sort of defeats the purpose of a backup when the original medium is built into the machine.

Microsoft have a DRM-transfer tool you can use that lets you transfer all your digital rights certificates to a new machine. Even without using that tool, you can still play any of your downloaded games on any machine as long as you're signed into Live. Sony have something similar whereby you can activate and deactivate hardware which transfers the digital rights.

All personal information can be removed from any PSN/XBL account easily.

Not quite. Oddly enough, the PSN account editor won't let you change your gender.

Hardly pertinent personal information.

Ask Alan Greenspan how well "it's in their best interests" works for predicting companies' behavior.

I'm not saying the current methods are perfect, but we're pretty much at the start of this new method of delivery. Things will get better, eventually. Just look at how DRMd music is being dropped in favour of DRM-free music because of how unpopular it is. There's also no doubt in my mind that at some point in the future, the PS3 and the 360 will be hacked too. Significant hacks already exist for the 360 that allow you to run homebrew code.

[Ex-Cyber]

It's possible to make backups of all your games on all 3 current-gen consoles.

Not in any meaningful way. You might back up the data itself, but it won't let you back up the DRM key/certificate/whatever required to use it. Even if you could, that key is tied to your individual machine anyway, which sort of defeats the purpose of a backup when the original medium is built into the machine.

Microsoft have a DRM-transfer tool you can use that lets you transfer all your digital rights certificates to a new machine. Even without using that tool, you can still play any of your downloaded games on any machine as long as you're signed into Live. Sony have something similar whereby you can activate and deactivate hardware which transfers the digital rights.

Right; your "backup" is just a cache for the download. It doesn't really perform the function of a backup since it can be rendered useless by lack of (access to) a remote activation service. It's faster than just re-downloading it, but not appreciably more robust.

I'm not saying the current methods are perfect, but we're pretty much at the start of this new method of delivery. Things will get better, eventually. Just look at how DRMd music is being dropped in favour of DRM-free music because of how unpopular it is. There's also no doubt in my mind that at some point in the future, the PS3 and the 360 will be hacked too. Significant hacks already exist for the 360 that allow you to run homebrew code.

The trend for consoles has been pretty much the opposite. Consoles have been adding more extensive and stronger forms of DRM for the past couple of decades, and the way consoles are marketed and branded leads people to feel that this is just the natural way of things for a console. The cultural bias is huge. You might want to listen to an MP3 on your PC, your iPod, and your car stereo, but why would you try to run a PlayStation game on anything other than Sony's terms?

As for hacking, it will probably get harder before it gets easier. MS already fixed the 360 vulnerability, and the Free60 guys still haven't actually released their hack. PS3 still appears virtually unassailable, although Sony's idiotic decision to yank Other OS support from the Slim might inspire something from the top homebrew hackers. I'm not holding my breath, though.

[bcass]

Well, my view is much less pessimistic. What it boils down to at the end of the day is this: will we be able to play these download games in the future? I'm pretty certain that either legitimately or otherwise (emulation, hacked, etc.) we will. It's actually my full belief that backwards compatibility will become more important in future generations of consoles for exactly this reason - so older titles have a substantially longer (virtual) shelf-life.

[cools]

Considering how many great titles are available that can be touched too, it's no real hardship.

Some of the best games this gen are download-only. Within the next 10 years there will be no such thing as retail games. You can quote me on that.

I was referring (somewhat obtusely) to the back catalogue of many thousands of games going back to the 70s.

There are more worthwhile games already produced than one person can sate themselves with in one lifetime. It's quite easy to step back and let the rest of the world enjoy the new titles while feeling no sense of loss.

Worrying about DRM/backups/play in 10 years time is a different argument altogether. Virtually everything apart from the current generation has been broken wide open and emulated to a high level of accuracy. The only thing that's currently a problem with download-only titles is how we can play them on original hardware without having the original download source available. With the Wii this isn't an issue, it's been fully hacked. No doubt the rest of the machines will follow suit at some point, but who knows how long it will take?

[antares]

Well, my view is much less pessimistic. What it boils down to at the end of the day is this: will we be able to play these download games in the future? I'm pretty certain that either legitimately or otherwise (emulation, hacked, etc.) we will. It's actually my full belief that backwards compatibility will become more important in future generations of consoles for exactly this reason - so older titles have a substantially longer (virtual) shelf-life.

I think this will only apply to popular games. Games that don't sell well will be delisted at some point. Microsoft already talked about this once.

The game Speedball 2 for example has already been deleted from XBLA because the publisher of the game was shut down. If you haven't already downloaded this game you will never be able to get it. It surely will happen to more games in the future.

But I do agree that eventually all consoles will get hacked and it will be possible to play XBLA and PSN games on emulators in 10 or 15 years. But me personally I still prefer to play old games on the original hardware than on an emulator and this will surely be problematic in the future.

On the other hand most retail games today get released bugged and patched afterwards so if you don't have access to the patch in 10 years you will have to play all the broken versions of your original games.

[gameoverDude]

On the other hand most retail games today get released bugged and patched afterwards so if you don't have access to the patch in 10 years you will have to play all the broken versions of your original games.

That's the worst thing this gen. If there's a bug in a game, the developers/publishers say "Fuck it, let's ship now and patch later". Enough of this SNAPL shit. When a game is $60, I think they should have to get it right the first time- just like it was on 32-bit. The bugs in Raiden Fighters Aces' unpatched version really shouldn't have happened.

Too bad you can't order custom burned XBLA/PSN game compilations on disc from Microsoft or Sony which would offer the games with their latest patches, as well as backup versions of previously released XBL/PS3 retail patches.

[Taylor]

You can't really resell DLC, that's one of the main reasons publishers like it. Games shops make most of their money from second hand games and the publisher doesn't see any of it. Though any publisher assuming that any second hand sale would have been two full priced sales is approaching music industry levels of disillusion. As far as discounts go its the ideal medium for it, publishers and the store owners get immediate feedback on how popular their game is and can make much smarter decisions.

Though it's not a complete holy grail for publishers because still lots of console owners are not connected to the internet (which makes the "patch it later" approach even more upsetting). Personally, my only problem with DLC is a speculative one: What happens when the servers go down? I would hope with their dying breath they just remove any DRM as a firmware update.

[Cthulhu]

I'll easily agree that the lack of "permanence" of DL games is a big problem. I still buy a lot of them though.

For the people that don't like this though, does the fact that modern consoles use hard drives bother you as well? Hard drives don't have all that long of lifespans. Yeah, this probably won't be an issue for many years, but 20 years down the road, who knows? The PS3 (the big one, not sure about the slim) uses standard drives, so they're more easily replaceable. But when MS pulls the plug on 360 HD production it could cause some issues way down the road. 99% of gamers won't give a damn long enough for it to matter though.

[kid aphex]

everything that needs to be said has been said by many people. digital distribution is the future, regardless of how you feel about it. the more you participate in it, the more you accept it and realize its benefits.

[bcass]

But when MS pulls the plug on 360 HD production it could cause some issues way down the road. 99% of gamers won't give a damn long enough for it to matter though.

It's actually possible to replace the Microsoft HDD with a standard model:

http://www.gamerwok.com/archives/786

There are people offering to perform the service on ebay for anyone who thinks the process looks complicated. Also, don't forget that the 360 has its own memory cards (upto 512MB) - you can run games off these cards even if your HDD dies.

[charlie chong]

i dont want internet in my house(its full of shit and bad opinions that i dont want to look at on my own time ) so therefore i am screwed because of this shit. no deathsmiles mbl for me till i go round a friends house with the console. i think dlc is good for those that want to take advantage but for those whose lives are not internet obsessed it is rubbish. i would much rather pay £20 or whatever and get a disc with deathsmiles mega black label on it.

[Danbo]

being on some fairly shitty internet myself right now i really think a disk-based option should always be offered alongside the DLC. after all it's not like we actually end up getting passed on any of the savings made from digital distribution, but i wouldn't mind paying a slight free on top of the cost to get it sent to me in the mail.

for example, i bought ikaruga on xbox live about a year ago. in retrospect it would have been cool to get it on disk so that i could flush it down the toilet where it belongs

[Rob]

All personal information can be removed from any PSN/XBL account easily.

lol, no. For one thing, XBL takes a finders keepers approach to credit card numbers.

for example, i bought ikaruga on xbox live about a year ago. in retrospect it would have been cool to get it on disk so that i could flush it down the toilet where it belongs

Braid

[unsane]

I think before long internet will be as ubiquitous and robust as electricity, everyone will have 99.9% uptime and take it for granted. So yeah, put me in the DLC camp.