DUX for Dreamcast

P_HAT · Post by **P_HAT** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:36 am

i'm sure, what there is a more than 2 bugs.

So, TEST IT MORE.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:03 am

Fenrir wrote:Show your face to the customers and they'll literally eat you alive.

I really don't agree with this. If you have a really small, niche userbase, communication with your customers is essential. The problem is, RHE didn't start communicating until AFTER the game had shipped, and even then, it was along the lines of .. well, what we just saw here.

If he had just said, "Oops, I fucked up, sorry guys, replacement discs incoming" .. things would have been a lot less dramatastic.

P_HAT wrote:i'm sure, what there is a more than 2 bugs.

So, TEST IT MORE.

The height of comedy would be if he shipped out replacement discs, only to have the game CSed on level 2 instead.

Nate · Post by **Nate** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:31 am

I wonder if anyone here has considered consciously avoiding the bug and attempted to 1cc the game while trying to achieve the lowest score possible...as a goal. So, instead of a "hi-score", you're actually shooting for a "lo-score"; considering the fact that "score" is the real concern here for many. The word "pacifism" comes to mind when I read these posts; namely the feat of "beating DoDonPachi without firing a shot". I can only assume that someone is so badass at DDP that they decided to alter their approach out of boredom, dedication and total admiration of DDP. I can also assume that this "play mode" was NOT what Cave had in mind when they created the game.

Furthermore, we should consider one of the earliest "shmup" scoring bugs; that of Phoenix (arcade) by Centuri. At the mothership boss, one can follow the flight of the upward flying bird-fleet and move the character-ship to the right from the left of the screen while rapid-firing and, if timed correctly, could rack-up like...200,000 points? It can be repeated multiple times I think. In those days, I would frequently attempt to take advantage of this "bug" to achieve the hi-score (I was 10 years old in 1982 and Phoenix was placed at the convenience store about 100 feet from my house - for about a year). Still, you could "loop" Phoenix over and over and the game itself was both visually and audibly satisfying as well as unique for its time. Did the bug ruin Phoenix? Or, did the infinite ability to loop it with little or no change in difficulty (except for the more frequent and hard to dodge shots from the mothership's underbelly) render the game pointless? Yeah, you could avoid the scoring bug and just play straight without scabbing or milking for points...but, you would eventually get ass-kicked or get bored playing or both. In the end, it was just Phoenix - a flawed, yet very relevant game. There was a bug in the game and it was fun to challenge my buddies (in 2P mode) to consistently "trigger" it...because it became a compulsion to do so. I would have never considered...avoiding it.

As for my take on whether or not the bug should be fixed - I'd say it would be good for players who can't seem to avoid it when they know it's there.
I DO, on the other hand, prefer a "console-based" title that challenges me to "feel-out", memorize and eventually complete the game with a specific amount of allotted continues; give me Eliminate Down, Gaiares, Gunhed, Thunder Force IV, Darius Force... I really play for this purpose - not so much for the points, so I'd favor the fix - but, I'd "tactfully" avoid the bug if I had to I guess.

Still, I'd like to play the game...

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:34 am

Also for a GOOD example of how to communicate with people who will be playing (and paying for) your game, see Matthew Doucette. He has bent over backwards to communicate with fans and make sure the game is going to be well recieved, and even went as far as to start new threads to ask questions about things he wasn't sure about.

jochen · Post by **jochen** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:57 am

With this bug ... or whatever it will be called ... the game is
surely not perfect. Though I myself can ignore this fault
or live with it I can understand other players who maybe loose
every fun and joy from that game. I found this "score bug" on the first
day I played the game - so with some play testing from normal
skilled shmup-players it should have been found and corrected.
Many buyers paid for this game nearly one year ago - and after
waiting for a long time you can be sure some people are "pissed"
after finding such a ... whatever we will name it.

Also some responses from RHE to critics on his game might
provoke more critic and anger .

As already said from others : maybe it is better for
game-programmers to stay in the shadow, don´t start discussing
with players. Be mysterious ( if god exists he/ she / it does
this for now over 2000 years

).

On the other side some critic in this threads are too personal
and sometimes insulting. No more words about that and no
examples.

The graphics and the sound might not be perfect - but I consider them
as good. I like the enemy design - maybe some of the bosses look
and play too similar - but it was fun for me to fight them.

Looking on DUX I stay to my word that I ( I can only talk
for myself ) liked it better than Thunderforce 6 - even knowing
of this one bug, only one difficulty and no loops. It is one of these
shmups you finish, put it on the side and after some months/ years
you come back, play for half an hour and again have some fun
with it. Games from Cave like Ibara with their high difficulty
are sometimes more work than fun ( again - I speak only for me).

Looking at this game I see that the makers put love and effort in
this - it is work from people who seem to like shmups. Alone for
that they deserve a little bit of respect - even with all the faults
the game has and that have to be discussed.

So ... if you ordered the game and haven´t played it yet ...
try it, give it some time and a chance. Yes - we all payed good
money for this game - but please consider that many of us
paid more money for Thunderforce 6. And how much fun did
you have with Thunderforce 6 ?

Jochen - no relative or personally related to the game programmers.

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:33 am

jochen wrote:Dogshit...

How about you shut the fuck up asslicker. I had more fun with TF6 than this crap. TF6 was actually more worth it's money than Dux is. Stop licking RHE's ass mr. I like gays. Seriously, not even TF6 had any bugs, just safespots LOL. Seriously, stop defending this guys, you're only setting yourself up as a perfect target for flaming!

E. Randy Dupre · Post by **E. Randy Dupre** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:39 am

Homophobic infighting. Great.

With that post, this thread suddenly stopped being amusing.

General Martok · Post by **General Martok** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:39 am

What the hell is going on with the Thunderforce 6 bashing? That game is in a whole different league and I don't recall that it was perceived this bad here when it came out

Post by **Ghegs** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:48 am

Kaiser wrote:
jochen wrote:Dogshit...
How about you shut the fuck up asslicker. I had more fun with TF6 than this crap. TF6 was actually more worth it's money than Dux is. Stop licking RHE's ass mr. I like gays. Seriously, not even TF6 had any bugs, just safespots LOL. Seriously, stop defending this guys, you're only setting yourself up as a perfect target for flaming!

Take a chill pill.
(a 2 week one)

clp · Post by **clp** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:49 am

E. Randy Dupre wrote:Homophobic infighting. Great.

With that post, this thread suddenly stopped being amusing.

+1

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:54 am

Kaiser forgot to take his meds again ..

mjclark · Post by **mjclark** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:55 am

Wow! This isn't just a game, it's become an event

I've played it a little now and (as others who've played it have said) with a few fixes Dux could be a really nice shmup.
The option NOT to continue is essential, as is score reset to zero when continuing.
Also a choice of difficulty levels and number of default lives.
I'd like the pod to be a bit more powerful and maybe have it's own shot too, but that's just being greedy.

Casey120 · Post by **Casey120** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:28 am

Kaiser wrote:
jochen wrote:Dogshit...
How about you shut the fuck up asslicker. I had more fun with TF6 than this crap. TF6 was actually more worth it's money than Dux is. Stop licking RHE's ass mr. I like gays. Seriously, not even TF6 had any bugs, just safespots LOL. Seriously, stop defending this guys, you're only setting yourself up as a perfect target for flaming!

P_HAT · Post by **P_HAT** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:37 am

Gays on shmups?

jochen · Post by **jochen** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:06 pm

To Kaiser:

Asslicking is definetly not my kind of thing. Toilet paper seems to
be the better option and I surely won´t like the taste in my mouth
when trying it.

You had more fun with TF6 - good for you. No problem for me
about your opinion. I ´ve also spent some hours with TF6 and I
still say that DUX brouht me more joy than TF6 . Will you go berserk
then my favourite food is not your taste ?

Myself as a perfect target for flaming ? Well - life isn´t always nice -
will have to deal with that.

Jochen.

captpain · Post by **captpain** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:14 pm

Nate wrote:In the end, it was just Phoenix - a flawed, yet very relevant game.

In the end, this is just DUX - a flawed, yet totally irrelevant game.

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:30 pm

I'd like to explain how does it happen, that at stage 1 the score goes high like a rocket. As you can see on these pics, there are wall of green enemies that shoot a row of needles shoots. The thing is, on the video these enemies shoot twice (almost) to the same time.

Now the problem is, that doens't normally happen. Everytime I play the game, and play testers too, those enemies only shoot once at a time, as they should. So from what it looks, it most be a odd programming issue. Somehow Jochen and Plasmo manage to trigger that bug. Currently it's not known why this happens.

Plasmo (with bug)

RHE (w/o bug)

Both screens are made from the final retail product.

mjclark · Post by **mjclark** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:22 pm

Yes-when I soak those bullets round the second checkpoint it doesn't seem to trigger the massive points jump EVERY time either, more like every third or fourth time....

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:38 pm

That's pretty strange, as for me it's not even every 100th time, it doesn't happen at all.

Sonic R · Post by **Sonic R** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:59 pm

General Martok wrote:What the hell is going on with the Thunderforce 6 bashing? That game is in a whole different league and I don't recall that it was perceived this bad here when it came out

Oh, it was burned at the stake upon its release here.
Its everything thats wrong with shooters around these parts…

•its not cave
•its a console game
•its a horizontal

therefore, it was a failure -

dux has a critical hit on it though from the above - broken game play!

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:00 pm

Gameplay is not broken. But the important thing here is, that TV6 stays as it is, while there's going to be a bug fix for DUX.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:17 pm

only difference in those pictures i can see is player position and timing....RHE's shot looks like its slightly later.....

so this seems to be fixable, RHE? like have you isolated what is causing the issue in that part?

im no programmer so i obviously dont have any reality on what would be involved in such a fix....

also, kaiser.....

enough already....one would think majorly offtopic attacks of somebodies sexual preferences would be grounds for at least a temp ban.....jochen did nothing to deserve that....he has been one of the few people in this thread speaking from experience and offering constructive criticism.....

in fact, after reading his posts and those from a few others i kinda feel guilty for the way we have all jumped on RHE, especially those who are going on 2nd hand info and havent even played the game....we all know how he deals with criticism.....lets give him a chance to make good on this....he obviously cares what we think or he wouldnt be here having these arguments time and again.....but he has put so much into his games that is hard to hear anything negative.....i can understand that....i would be willing to bet i would be much the same way.....that said, you need to try and take a back seat and hear what people have to say,RHE....i think you will get a lot less harsh criticism if you dont instantly go on the defensive....just remember they are only talking about the game, not you.....and you are allowed to make mistakes, but you have to be a bit gracious about it...after all, this is a consumer product and people have payed for it

we should all think of it this way....we have just spent a year or so working like a fiend on a labor of love game.....it finally gets released and you think you have everything ironed out, you come here to see how its received, and almost immediately get ripped a new asshole by most of the community, whether they have played it or not....i know that would be hard to take for me and keep a calm demeanor.....this kinda thing has to be very stressful.....

at jochen....you handled that well sir....good show

sorry for the wall of text guys.....

good luck with the fix RHE

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:26 pm

Thanks, I'm pretty sure this bug is fixable very soon. Yet, its not clear how it occours. And yes, I listen what people here have to say, that's the reason why I'm registered here.

Of course both pics have slightly different time frames, but its clearly visible that enemy is only shooting one row each. I also tried countless times to do the same movements like Plasmo, and still they only shoot once.

Anyway, to all people who experience this bug, let me know a few things: what kind of TV device do you use? CRT, LCD, Plasma? But most important thing of all, does the TV device support 60hz or is it just 50hz?

captpain · Post by **captpain** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:28 pm

Stop being rational, jonny.

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:30 pm

I also want to know what kind of Dreamcast models do you use: NTSC-J/HK, NTSC-US, PAL etc.

Casey120 · Post by **Casey120** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:44 pm

My first (very Noob) thought is , are there different Dreamcast hardware revisions ?

And RHE , did you stop sending out the game to customers as i did pre-order but not yet received it .

Hope you fix it soon !

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:50 pm

It may have something to do with the hardware, it may has something to to with 50hz mode that some TVs require as they don't support 60hz.

All individual orders are already shipped, but it won't be a obstacle for customers to receive a bug fix.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:53 pm

ahhhh....i see what you mean in those pictures now RHE......very peculiar

i think this will be my last post in this thread until i have actually played the game, but i will say this....i think if anything can be learned from this is you need better players play-testing for you, and as udderdude pointed out, perhaps go about things more like the doucette bros. and run stuff past the community before release.....it could avoid a lot of the backlash you seem to get, and who knows, between your ideas and programming skill and the ideas and opinions of the members here(your core market) you could come out with a really good game that everyone can enjoy

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:58 pm

Hope dies last.

Casey120 · Post by **Casey120** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:09 pm

If all orders are shipped you will have a lot more play testers next week to give you feedback .