So if this is ok, or even a good thing that gives players choice, why don't we see more people on this forum defending the use of credit feeding by reviewers who score games badly for being too short? Hopefully Cave uses a feature like this in their next release so that reviewers won't even have to play huge sections of the games before complaining.
The real question is how reviewers will respond to it. To me, it's another stupid hand holding feature that prevents them from having to learn a game or becoming competent in it. It gives players an instant out for challenging sections and an easy out for developers to create balanced gameplay. I have a feeling Nintendo will be hailed for it but use by other developers or in other genres being condemned as being too hard and too easy at the same tim.
The Video Games are playing themselves. (NSMB Wii Demo Play)
Feedback will set you free.
captpain wrote:Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb
I could concede here and say that New Super Mario Bros Wii might actually be more enjoyable and challenging now that the more casual players can just skip parts they don't like, leaving the entertaining parts for us. The DS version was certainly piss easy, even to get the 100% clear... maybe enough people complained and this is the solution.
In this single case maybe you're right, but I don't think you're looking far enough into the future. Any move towards broadening the audience of video games seems to have watered down the end product over time, and this is a HUGE step in that direction. That's just the law of mass appeal. And now all of the big three want to jump on that train, not just Nintendo. I brought up Prince of Persia earlier in the thread. All games could potentially take on this trend or at least acknowledge it, as people become more numb to it.
In the future I don't think game developers will even bother with making a game more rewardingly challenging or do anything that would limit the audience just for the sake of a small fraction of players who want some real sense of accomplishment (a fake achievement will suffice.) Unscathed mentioned enemies having new attacks as the game got harder. Meh, that's not necessary, just increase the shot load, add a little more of everything, if people are too vexed by it they can just skip it anyways right? Challenge will become an afterthought to the developer. This is gonna slowly mess with that balance entirely. Trying to appeal to everyone just means the lowest common denominator. Games with the best graphics and the most DLC outfits will sell. Who wants to come home from work and try hard at something that doesn't mean anything? People just want to make their character belch and get fat and drink 40's and laugh about it, fuck fighting the boss, the game can do that for them.
Why do you think AI development has stagnated so much? It's because in the future the only challenging video games you play will be with your friends in the multiplayer modes. Expect less AI like the wonderful stuff in the Virtua Fighter games and more stuff like Milo.
So go ahead and keep being complacent about this and see what happens. I'll bump this thread in a couple years and see if you've changed your tune. The only people making challenging shooters will be the doujin guys. It's practically that way already.
It will come and go, as all other things have passed. It's the end of an era.
In this single case maybe you're right, but I don't think you're looking far enough into the future. Any move towards broadening the audience of video games seems to have watered down the end product over time, and this is a HUGE step in that direction. That's just the law of mass appeal. And now all of the big three want to jump on that train, not just Nintendo. I brought up Prince of Persia earlier in the thread. All games could potentially take on this trend or at least acknowledge it, as people become more numb to it.
In the future I don't think game developers will even bother with making a game more rewardingly challenging or do anything that would limit the audience just for the sake of a small fraction of players who want some real sense of accomplishment (a fake achievement will suffice.) Unscathed mentioned enemies having new attacks as the game got harder. Meh, that's not necessary, just increase the shot load, add a little more of everything, if people are too vexed by it they can just skip it anyways right? Challenge will become an afterthought to the developer. This is gonna slowly mess with that balance entirely. Trying to appeal to everyone just means the lowest common denominator. Games with the best graphics and the most DLC outfits will sell. Who wants to come home from work and try hard at something that doesn't mean anything? People just want to make their character belch and get fat and drink 40's and laugh about it, fuck fighting the boss, the game can do that for them.
Why do you think AI development has stagnated so much? It's because in the future the only challenging video games you play will be with your friends in the multiplayer modes. Expect less AI like the wonderful stuff in the Virtua Fighter games and more stuff like Milo.
So go ahead and keep being complacent about this and see what happens. I'll bump this thread in a couple years and see if you've changed your tune. The only people making challenging shooters will be the doujin guys. It's practically that way already.
It will come and go, as all other things have passed. It's the end of an era.
That is Galactic Dancing
I would definitely complain if a reviewer used this to get through NSMB Wii in order to review it without actually beating it themselves. Just like I complain when a reviewer reviews a shmup based on credit-feeding and calls it 'too short' or 'too easy to beat' or anything like that.Acid King wrote:So if this is ok, or even a good thing that gives players choice, why don't we see more people on this forum defending the use of credit feeding by reviewers who score games badly for being too short? Hopefully Cave uses a feature like this in their next release so that reviewers won't even have to play huge sections of the games before complaining.
Your comparison isn't quite apt. 'Demo play' is a lot like credit feeding a shmup, sure, but in a shmup the player has the option to credit feed OR actually beat the game properly. I don't really mind having the choice in a shmup, and I don't see what the problem is with having the choice in a Mario game. As others have pointed out, this might even be a good thing because Nintendo can stop making super-easy games and make the game have actual challenge, and leave the demo play for the 'casual gamers' who can't get through it.
"I think Ikaruga is pretty tough. It is like a modern version of Galaga that some Japanese company made."
We're not defending the use of credit-feeding or 'demo play'. What we are defending is the developers making the choice available, the same way we defend games that have free play unlocked. The credit-feeding reviewer you cite actually holds the opposite opinion, namely that the game sucks BECAUSE free play is available and therefore 'it's too easy'.Acid King wrote:So if this is ok, or even a good thing that gives players choice, why don't we see more people on this forum defending the use of credit feeding by reviewers who score games badly for being too short? Hopefully Cave uses a feature like this in their next release so that reviewers won't even have to play huge sections of the games before complaining.
It depends on how the feature is implemented. If it's actually intelligent and adaptive (as opposed to simply playing through a prerecorded route), it might lead to an actual enhancement in AI. New technology is seldom a bad thing, although it's not always put to good use.szycag wrote:Why do you think AI development has stagnated so much? It's because in the future the only challenging video games you play will be with your friends in the multiplayer modes. Expect less AI like the wonderful stuff in the Virtua Fighter games and more stuff like Milo.
We here shall not rest until we have made a drawing-room of your shaft, and if you do not all finally go down to your doom in patent-leather shoes, then you shall not go at all.
The main addition in NSMB is 4 player multiplayer. If you’ve ever played a multiplayer platformer before it basically entails you completing the section and waiting, or failing a section and getting frustrated because people are waiting on you. Letting lagging players effectively skip the section mitigates that problem and I would speculate that’s the reason this was included.
It's not really a good accessibility mechanic for single player, because if you skip a section the next is just going to be harder. You know when people credit feed in shmups and they just last 5 seconds each life? They don't find that fun.
Maybe wait and see before we preach that this marks the beginning of the end.
As far as I can tell this has not actually been received favourably by the majority anyway, though that might need the word “vocal” prefixing it.
It's not really a good accessibility mechanic for single player, because if you skip a section the next is just going to be harder. You know when people credit feed in shmups and they just last 5 seconds each life? They don't find that fun.
Maybe wait and see before we preach that this marks the beginning of the end.
What I find interesting about Prince of Persia is if you look at the traversal sections in Uncharted (et al.) they are just as checkpoint-laden as those in PoP, the difference is in PoP you get a sarcastic quip and fancy animation instead of screaming and falling to your death.szycag wrote:You're wrong if you think this is going to stop with Nintendo. I mean the newest Prince of Persia game was practically there. Just add scene select.
As far as I can tell this has not actually been received favourably by the majority anyway, though that might need the word “vocal” prefixing it.
I disagree with this statement... I think Nintendo might "get" difficulty levels better than many other developers. The glaring example that comes to mind for this is Mario Kart Wii.UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Nintendo doesn't get difficulty levels
There are built-in accomplishments to make a soccer mom feel warm and cuddly, but they are quite transparent to the seasoned gamer, and feel like they are a part of the natural progression of the single player campaign.
Further proof can be found in the fact that my friends and I can enjoy a multi-player game with our non-gaming girlfriends/wives and EVERYONE has a good time. The game does a fine job of leveling the playing field, while still rewarding skill, and somehow ensuring that no one feels cheated.
Super Smash Bros. Brawl is another good example. So is Super Mario Galaxy (collecting 60 stars, vs. 120).
Selecting easy, medium, or hard should only happen in console ports of arcade games. It strikes me as lazy, or unimaginative elsewhere - at least in the year 2009.
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DJ Incompetent
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I'm excited about Demo Play, provided they think about the blinking "Demo Play" HUD when used and they're actually going to crank of the difficulty of the regular game in the design because this feature is being counted on.
I've never found four people together in Michigan smart enough to play Little Big Planet together ('cept Ayanami 'n Sonic R's crew). I think Wii Mario is gonna be a good place to start with this since a 4 player game would bring about similar trainwreck results without it.
As a sign of the times, here's a comedy goldmine shitstorm thread about Prototype not having cheats:
http://forums.activision.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=2617
I've never found four people together in Michigan smart enough to play Little Big Planet together ('cept Ayanami 'n Sonic R's crew). I think Wii Mario is gonna be a good place to start with this since a 4 player game would bring about similar trainwreck results without it.
As a sign of the times, here's a comedy goldmine shitstorm thread about Prototype not having cheats:
http://forums.activision.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=2617
@shmups | superplaymixes Reworked Game Soundtracks | livestreamin'
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SockPuppetHyren
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Great, now all they need to do is add about 10 30-minute cutscenes, some Holywood actors, pop this in a theater, and we'll have a Super Mario movie that's not complete shit. 
New Age gaming: "Actually, I really wanted to be a movie director, but I sucked at it so I became a game developer instead"
EDIT:
Sure, I still play it from time to time (Mainly because I like this games Samus in spite of her flaws), but it's simply not as fun as it could be. Honestly, I feel it get's worse with items on, due to retarded crap like the curry and the new paper fan (You can hold someone for over 250 damage. Try it yourself).
New Age gaming: "Actually, I really wanted to be a movie director, but I sucked at it so I became a game developer instead"
EDIT:
No it isn't. In fact, it's a great example of why Nintendo's current policies are making their older fans angry. In my own experience, the best way to have fun with Brawl is to purposely play on a low level. Why? Because high-level Brawl will often devolve into camp fests and be generally boring. They took out a the multitude of approaches and techniques (I say this not even counting stuff like Wavedashing) that were present in Melee and gave us a game with massive balance and speed issues. There are many players who stopped playing Smash all together because of Brawl, and I really don't blame them.Super Smash Bros. Brawl is another good example.
Sure, I still play it from time to time (Mainly because I like this games Samus in spite of her flaws), but it's simply not as fun as it could be. Honestly, I feel it get's worse with items on, due to retarded crap like the curry and the new paper fan (You can hold someone for over 250 damage. Try it yourself).
Last edited by SockPuppetHyren on Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sigh.DJ Incompetent wrote:As a sign of the times, here's a comedy goldmine shitstorm thread about Prototype not having cheats:
http://forums.activision.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=2617
Back in the day "cheat" codes let you beat the game, and "hidden" codes were for messing with it.
Neither of which were in a menu already in the game.
Handwritten notes, reading magazines. Ingenuity and guesswork.
"Cheats" adding replay value to a sandbox game? How about making it more difficult, so it requires some semblance of practice to gain the skill necessary? No?[/b]
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worstplayer
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There's one serious problem. Situations where you want to let the game play itself are exactly situations (probably extremely stupid) bots can't get out of.
Obvious solutions:
1. Game so easy even most primitive bot can complete it.
2. Cheating bot (How's that different from normal cheats again?)
3. Once you turn the autopilot off you can't turn it back on (What's the point then?)
None of those seem very compelling to me.
Obvious solutions:
1. Game so easy even most primitive bot can complete it.
2. Cheating bot (How's that different from normal cheats again?)
3. Once you turn the autopilot off you can't turn it back on (What's the point then?)
None of those seem very compelling to me.
"A game isn't bad because you resent it. A game is bad because it's shitty."
This is Super Mario, not a FPS where the bots have to think like humans or use sophisticated 3d pathfinding. Programming a bot to play a 2d platformer is not a challenge at all for a moderately competent developer, and in fact has already been done many times by people in the tool-assisted speedrun community (check out the stuff that's been done with FCEUX and LUAScript).worstplayer wrote:There's one serious problem. Situations where you want to let the game play itself are exactly situations (probably extremely stupid) bots can't get out of.
Obvious solutions:
1. Game so easy even most primitive bot can complete it.
2. Cheating bot (How's that different from normal cheats again?)
3. Once you turn the autopilot off you can't turn it back on (What's the point then?)
None of those seem very compelling to me.
edit -- Anyone remember those 'programming' type games like RoboSport or Dark Century? I think a Mario game where you had to program Mario to complete a level using a simple set of rules could be really fun.
We here shall not rest until we have made a drawing-room of your shaft, and if you do not all finally go down to your doom in patent-leather shoes, then you shall not go at all.
If you think about it, any joe with 1000 spare hours can make a NES quality game nowadays, thanks to home programming, hundreds of software tools, and the PC. In this way, you don't need big developers' millions to make a game you like--big budgets are only good for movie-quality environments/graphics.szycag wrote:In the future I don't think game developers will even bother with making a game more rewardingly challenging or do anything that would limit the audience just for the sake of a small fraction of players who want some real sense of accomplishment (a fake achievement will suffice.)
What I mean by this, is that people who enjoy and play challenging games are going to stick up for their own type of game when they feel like they want to make a game.
That's your civic duty to the old school now, guys. Get out there and make the games you and your friends want to play, because as the demographic of video games changes, developers sure aren't going to take that risk with their millions. It's not about making a game to play or setting a stage for competition any longer: it's business for them. (It always has been... but as times change, the impacts they leave behind for new prospects are remembered fondly by those who grew up with them.)
That was really encouraging ZacharyB. Makes me want to do something creative. I guess I never thought video games would need some sort of indie movement like music and movies did. When I started hearing the phrase indie games it sounded really silly. But it's shaping up that way really fast.
That is Galactic Dancing
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DJ Incompetent
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probablyUdderdude wrote:To anyone saying the games will now be more challenging thanks to the inclusion of play-it-for-you mode : lol. I repeat, lol. It will still be just as baby-mush easy as it was before.
@shmups | superplaymixes Reworked Game Soundtracks | livestreamin'
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And what makes you think that the response to this will be any different? Both are optional, but free play is pretty much universally abused by people outside these boards and cited as a reason arcade games are too short, and too easy. If they're used in the same way, it will just become another method for reviewers and gamers to breeze through games and not be challenged. We don't really know how it will be implemented so it's all speculation, but still seems like a bad idea to me.it290 wrote:
The credit-feeding reviewer you cite actually holds the opposite opinion, namely that the game sucks BECAUSE free play is available and therefore 'it's too easy'.
Feedback will set you free.
captpain wrote:Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb
In this particular case? It will be received differently because it's Mario. In general? I don't know, but I don't really see this being implemented as a 'win button' in score-based games. Although, if you think about it, a feature like this would be really great to have in training mode (only) for any shmup.
We here shall not rest until we have made a drawing-room of your shaft, and if you do not all finally go down to your doom in patent-leather shoes, then you shall not go at all.
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DJ Incompetent
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Yesgabe wrote:Have you ever watched YouTube vids of a 1cc/high score and picked up new strategies/ideas?
Yesgabe wrote:Is this any different?
The idea is sound. If Demo Play is put in the way way Nintendo says it will and the players observe and interpret Demo Play in the way the idea is intended, yes, everybody would be happy. Inexperienced players would learn to get better, that's good. I'd like Demo Pay to be put in STGs if it was done in the way everybody thought was intended.
What everybody's concerned about is players are not going to use Demo Play for the reason it was intended, be it fake superplays or letting the later 50% of the game play itself and claim it's too easy, review scores are going to get distorted more since 'top' reviewers ignore game mechanics whenever possible yet still push their voice to influence trends, and Nintendo isn't going to implement Demo Play in a constructive and compromising way that won't cause more problems than solve since they tend to lie quite a bit.
Players in the know don't want great game formulas being turned into Ann Arbor's Hands-on Museum. I felt burned by Galaxy & DS SMB. I won't buy into that stuff again until I see a general challenge improvement.
@shmups | superplaymixes Reworked Game Soundtracks | livestreamin'
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How about a net-enabled demo play feature that uses other player's actions to generate a composite 'optimal strategy' -- aggregated tool-assisted superplays? Sounds sweet.
We here shall not rest until we have made a drawing-room of your shaft, and if you do not all finally go down to your doom in patent-leather shoes, then you shall not go at all.