HDTV Gaming Question: Emulation vs Real Hardware

Shelcoof · Post by **Shelcoof** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:43 pm

Hi Gamers

Ok I've been going through a very long dilemma after acquiring my new HDTV.
The age old video game lag on HDTV problem and the many different types of solutions out there.

I love playing my PSX, Sega Saturn, SNES, Genesis, Dreamcast and PS2 a lot. I hate the Wii but I use that to play my GC games on.
I find that 480p signals give me acceptable lag even for Shmups on my HDTV. However though not all my systems can output 480p, the only two systems that can do that are the Wii and the PS2. All the rest including GC games played on the Wii lag.

I'd like to find a solution to playing games with Zero to very very little lag. Picture quality doesn't really matter to me as long as the game plays with unnoticeable lag.

There are tons of adapters out there but I figured there's just too much hassle to get things to work with every console I have and even going through a ton expensive adapters and cables, still does not guarantee lag free games. (from what I've read)

I'm still going on the route of probably getting an adapter to up scan and upscale the image but an XRGB is hard to come by and I'm having second thoughts about picking it up. Other cheaper adapters are costly and I'm not even sure if it will reduce lag. (maybe even cause more who knows)

So.... an alternative to all this is to use Emulation via my notebook set up with my HDTV

I'm going to assume that setting up a 2nd screen using my HDTV and my notebook will have no Lag while gaming.

Emulation for all the 16-bit consoles including arcade games on MAME should have no lag. (SNES, Genesis, NES, Master System, PC Engine)
ePSXe is an amazing emulator which performs better than the actual hardware. HD gaming with this emulator would be ideal.

So we got tons of great games there on HD playable Lag Free.(I'm assuming) Now what's left?

GameCube, Wii, PS2
Many Wii and PS2 games output 480p and the lag on there is acceptable for me. Games that don't output 480p either are games that don't require time sensitive inputs or either I don't care much for them.

GC games that don't output 480p suffer a great deal of lag for me. Fortunately the only GC game I still play is Super SmashBros Melee and that is just one game so I guess it'd be pretty stupid of me to spend a great deal of money just to get that game to run lag free. (Dolphin runs Melee perfectly now, though my Notebook can't handle perfect emulation yet, if so then we got the GC section covered)

Sega Saturn was my biggest gripe, luckily for me though we got SSF that emulates most of my games ok.

For some reason though I really want to play on my original Saturn but am still thinking about emulation for my HDTV. So I guess I got this system covered.

Anyways my question is, what are your thoughts about this idea and solution?

Pros
Its cheap, all I need are cables for my notebook to my HDTV via VGA or HDMI. Also no LAG (assumption again)

Cons
But the bad I don't play on my original console.

Jimmy

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:25 pm

Your problem is a common one, my friend. You want to play your old consoles properly? You'll need a second monitor.... a CRT. There are RGB monitors that can be had even in North America. All of the systems you mentioned support RGB out of the box, so you'll only need to ensure your monitor supports the cable. If that's too much a cheap S-Video enabled CRT should be free at your local dump.

Emulation for all the 16-bit consoles including arcade games on MAME should have no lag.

Read the MAME input lag thread (main forum) for this. But in terms of lag on the monitor, the same holds true. If you get an RGB monitor, you can quite easily hook up an Arcade VGA to it, which supports (close to) original resolutions of your listed consoles.

Shelcoof · Post by **Shelcoof** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:49 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:Your problem is a common one, my friend. You want to play your old consoles properly? You'll need a second monitor.... a CRT. There are RGB monitors that can be had even in North America. All of the systems you mentioned support RGB out of the box, so you'll only need to ensure your monitor supports the cable. If that's too much a cheap S-Video enabled CRT should be free at your local dump.

Emulation for all the 16-bit consoles including arcade games on MAME should have no lag.
Read the MAME input lag thread (main forum) for this. But in terms of lag on the monitor, the same holds true. If you get an RGB monitor, you can quite easily hook up an Arcade VGA to it, which supports (close to) original resolutions of your listed consoles.

Hey thanks for posting.

I have an old 32 inch Trinitron in the same room here just for old consoles lol. I want to get rid of it and use just one TV in the room.
I sort of wanted a one screen solution but because of the HDTV problem I'm sort of stuck wtih two TVs right now until I can figure out what I really want to do. lol what is really funny is that I have a 20inch CRT monitor here as well. It just takes up soo much space.

oh yhaa bout the MAME input lag, I'll take a look at that, I've always seen it I just never bothered to check but I guess it wouldn't hurt to check it out

Thanks again for posting.

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:01 am

The only real solution for us classic gamers is to have both an HDTV and a CRT-based TV monitor or CRT-based RGB monitor for that cool 15kHz low resolution spec. ^_~

The only other alternative to get one of those super expensive LCD-based 4:3 aspect ratio monitors that accepts true 15kHz low-res signal but at upwards of $1,000+ USD. Perhaps not your cup of tea?

It's looks great to be able to play those cool native 1080p HD games such as WipeoutHD at 60fps framerate on a capable 1080p HDTV monitor. The upcoming Wipeout HD Fury upgrade should be even better. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:51 am

Modded Xbox will upscale most emulated systems to HD resolutions, with your choice of several hardware and software filters. (My choice is usually Point + Simple 2x filtering as it gives the cleanest, non-blurry picture possible.)

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:57 am

Get a monitor that has: DVI, HDMI, and VGA.

Then use DVI for PC, HDMI for PS3, and VGA for 360.

That takes care of current gen stuff. Now use your old CRT for PS2 and older games, or use an XRGB with a CRT monitor beside your current monitor.

I have something like this, except I have a 32" HDTV just for my PS3. It's not essential, but my current monitor lacks HDMI.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:09 am

Run the DC through VGA on an HD set. The lag should be nonexistent.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:19 am

I want to get rid of it and use just one TV in the room.

That's not a problem but your old games will look like complete and utter shit. There is no way around it really. New games: New TV. Old games: Old TV. The Xbox isn't really a good solution for emulation as well due to memory issues, lack of software being upgraded issues, and plenty of console emulators not having good filter issues. It's cheap though.

Post by **system11** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:33 am

Possibly impractical, but buy a better TV that doesn't suffer from input lag.

Post by **undamned** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:16 am

bloodflowers wrote:Possibly impractical, but buy a better TV that doesn't suffer from input lag.

Yeah, I don't know how the spread is on "fast response" TV's, but if I were looking on that basis, I would have no problem lugging a console around with me and hooking into TV's at the stores and verifying lag time. I've I'm dropping hundreds of dollars on something, I better be able to test my stuff out on a floor model.

My Sony SXRD has a "Game Mode" which supposedly is a no frills (no DNR, image sharpening, etc.) mode designed to cut down on lag. Can't say I've done any A/B comparisons, but I think I keep it on Game Mode in general.
-ud

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:10 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:That's not a problem but your old games will look like complete and utter shit. There is no way around it really. New games: New TV. Old games: Old TV. The Xbox isn't really a good solution for emulation as well due to memory issues, lack of software being upgraded issues, and plenty of console emulators not having good filter issues. It's cheap though.

Cheap enough to be a server-in-a-box?

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:54 pm

undamned wrote:
bloodflowers wrote:Possibly impractical, but buy a better TV that doesn't suffer from input lag.
Yeah, I don't know how the spread is on "fast response" TV's, but if I were looking on that basis, I would have no problem lugging a console around with me and hooking into TV's at the stores and verifying lag time. I've I'm dropping hundreds of dollars on something, I better be able to test my stuff out on a floor model.

My Sony SXRD has a "Game Mode" which supposedly is a no frills (no DNR, image sharpening, etc.) mode designed to cut down on lag. Can't say I've done any A/B comparisons, but I think I keep it on Game Mode in general.
-ud

It was my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) that all HDTVs have at least some lag when given SD signals (even CRT HDTVs). Game Mode helps because it doesn't perform all the fancy filters, but it still has to de-interlace and upscale the image to the TV's native resolution, which TVs aren't designed to do in under 1/60th of a second.

Here's an old but informative thread that made sense to me when I first started researching HDTVs:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125

FWIW, on my HDTV (Sony Z4100) Game Mode helps with SD systems but it does not eliminate lag. And Game Mode or not, it looks like total shit. I didn't really care much, though, since I've been neglecting my consoles since well before I bought the TV anyway (mostly I just played MAME and doujins on my PC). Right now I only have my 360 hooked up. Since it outputs at 1080p, it looks great and the lag is either non-existent or so minimal that I can't tell.

But I'm still hanging on to my shitty old CRT. It's sitting in the corner waiting for me to get nostalgic and play some old stuff (the Gunstar Heroes XBLA release reminded me that I need to play that game again... perhaps it's time to dig the Genesis out of the closet

). Those that said you need a CRT for old systems are absolutely right.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:17 pm

Cheap enough to be a server-in-a-box?

I remember this retarded story. In my vast computer experience, if it's not rack mounted, it's going to get turned off and/or moved at some point by someone. Lesson: don't use desktops (or game consoles) as servers.

Shelcoof · Post by **Shelcoof** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:15 pm

Hey Guys

Thanks for everyone's comment on the subject. After 6 hours of playing around with my notebook hooked up to my HDTV I can say with confidence that the results were amazing.

I was really impressed with my experience with all the emulators I used. Visually amazing and I didn't notice any input lag at all. So it was a very good experience indeed. Not only that but its the cheapest solution that suited me in my situation.

I'm still gonna keep my old Sony Trinitron though, seeing how I still enjoy playing all my games on original console. Even with emulation though, it's very difficult to enjoy that authentic feel of playing on a real console.

I'm happy for now, all I really need are some good controllers for my PC.

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:31 pm

Shelcoof wrote:Hey Guys

Thanks for everyone's comment on the subject. After 6 hours of playing around with my notebook hooked up to my HDTV I can say with confidence that the results were amazing.

I was really impressed with my experience with all the emulators I used. Visually amazing and I didn't notice any input lag at all. So it was a very good experience indeed. Not only that but its the cheapest solution that suited me in my situation.

I'm still gonna keep my old Sony Trinitron though, seeing how I still enjoy playing all my games on original console. Even with emulation though, it's very difficult to enjoy that authentic feel of playing on a real console.

I'm happy for now, all I really need are some good controllers for my PC.

Yep, it's good to have the best of both CRT & LCD based TV monitors when it comes to console gaming. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Shelcoof wrote:I was really impressed with my experience with all the emulators I used. Visually amazing and I didn't notice any input lag at all. So it was a very good experience indeed. Not only that but its the cheapest solution that suited me in my situation.

The thing about emulators is that your computer is doing the hard work for your TV. Since the TV doesn't have to do any extra work de-interlacing or upscaling, there's little or no lag. Plus you have more control over how upscaling is done and you can make it look the way you want. Personally I'd rather have blocky, pixelated sprites than smooth (read: blurry) ones.