I thought everyone hated Ibara...?

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:33 pm

dave: as far as the stage 3 and 6 bosses, i think he means the *amount* of points you glean from them, and how circumstance-specific they are. i'm not good enough to talk about about the stage 6 boss, but stage 3 boss can be a real ball-ache when the (sort of) random factors don't go your way

but i still think it's better because garegga's bosses on the whole are a lot less exciting

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:43 pm

dpful wrote:
professor ganson wrote:I wish someone could help me describe what is wrong with the look of the game. The words are escaping me.

Pale, low contrast graphics + strange pallet (orange instead of red explosions). Before I knew the game, and got the pcb, I was compelled to adjust all the guns-- it seemed awash in pale blue and orange. I think the colors are naturally a little bolder on the ps2-- the pcb hardware also has a surprisingly pale and low contrast output besides.

What's next, a sepia-tone shmup?

I love the density and ambuguity in the graphics, though, same with garegga. In garegga, it was because everything looked similar, in ibara it's because everything looks washed out.

Very interesting. Also, there's a curious way that things look remarkably delicate/fragile, but it's pretty impressive the way they explode.

No trolling, jpj. There's a lot to love about this game. Even my distaste for the graphics is qualified-- the level of detail and the explosions are remarkable.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:48 pm

jpj wrote:dave: as far as the stage 3 and 6 bosses, i think he means the *amount* of points you glean from them

Ah, ok I see what he is saying then...not worth the effort in comparison. I'm not anywhere as good at either game to tell this yet first hand...and typically fall asleep during the boss fights watching the superplays (no kidding).

MSZ · Post by **MSZ** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:59 pm

I must be the only guy who likes Garegga's soundtrack more.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:03 pm

no, no you aren't

there's just a lot of people with bad taste

Post by **Icarus** » Fri May 29, 2009 11:07 pm

Dave_K. wrote:WTF!? are you talking about?

Is Yagawa listed as the lead developer/director of the game, or just a supporting programmer? Because, despite my love for the game, Bakraid never really feels like a Yagawa game, or as polished as any the other games he's had a hand in.

PS: Garegga soundtrack <3
Ibara has a really good, strong soundtrack that drives the carnage on screen, but the actual tracks aren't as epic or as memorable as Garegga's original soundtrack.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri May 29, 2009 11:15 pm

Dave_K. wrote:
Gwyrgyn Blood wrote:There's some really ugly boss milking stuff in Ibara that I think pushes it down a notch from Garegga in the long run.
WTF!? Have you not seen the amount of milking done in Garegga superplay?

hrm, completely optionally exploiting a boss for 5 minutes for 100k and two lives worth of rank increase and a rank trick that requires you to make the last third of the game really hard to actually use it (and it's still worth 4 million points at most) in Garegga, or making 1/2 of your score depend entirely on boss milking in Ibara, let me think

lesson: radiant silvergun makes you think that weighting most of the score in boss milking is a good idea

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Fri May 29, 2009 11:26 pm

most of the score in silvergun comes from the 5A red chain - almost 50%

and you can have that tip for free

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri May 29, 2009 11:26 pm

other colors are more dangerous, yet yield less points

risk-reward

innerpattern · Post by **innerpattern** » Fri May 29, 2009 11:43 pm

MSZ wrote:I must be the only guy who likes Garegga's soundtrack more.

Twiddle wrote:no, no you aren't

there's just a lot of people with bad taste

I have to agree because Ibara isn't even remotely close.

garegga OST = Manabu Namiki (Thunder Dragon 2, Mahou ,APB, DOJ,Ketsui, DS)
ibara = some dude who has made mostly shit soundtracks (ridgeracer 6!

)

originalz · Post by **originalz** » Sat May 30, 2009 1:08 am

I actually haven't played much of the original Ibara except for a couple of instances, but Ibara Kuro Black Label is possibly my favorite Cave game. I just really like the pure intensity of everything and knowing which weapons to use at the right instance while trying to survive and maximize the score.

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Sat May 30, 2009 1:25 am

Dave_K. wrote: Ah, ok I see what he is saying then...not worth the effort in comparison. I'm not anywhere as good at either game to tell this yet first hand...and typically fall asleep during the boss fights watching the superplays (no kidding).

Yes, jpj was right about what I meant. You get a really stupid large number of points on bosses 3 and 6 once you really get the trick to nailing them. But boss 3 has a habit of not cooperating with you trying to score on it, coupled with being pretty darn difficult to milk properly in the first place, makes it kind of a pain.

Twiddle wrote: hrm, completely optionally exploiting a boss for 5 minutes for 100k and two lives worth of rank increase and a rank trick that requires you to make the last third of the game really hard to actually use it (and it's still worth 4 million points at most) in Garegga, or making 1/2 of your score depend entirely on boss milking in Ibara, let me think

Really Ibara's last 2 stages are a lot like Gareggas, you stockpile bombs and jack rank up insanely high, then cash in all your lives and bombs on the boss that spits out a ton of shit. Also, Ibara's score potential is almost 2x higher than Garegga in general, so getting 4 million on one boss in Garegga is not that much different than getting 8 million on one boss in Ibara.

And at least the upside is that the boss milking on boss 3 and 6 is challenging to do and and I personally don't find it boring, even if it is kind of unbalanced.

Domino · Post by **Domino** » Sat May 30, 2009 2:00 am

innerpattern wrote:ibara = some dude who has made mostly shit soundtracks (ridgeracer 6! )

And you're saying that the Under Defeat soundtrack was also shit (also was done by Shinji Hosoe)!!??

kernow · Post by **kernow** » Sat May 30, 2009 2:21 am

I can't believe no-ones gone 'BOM BAH' yet

Great game, hard as balls, rocking soundtrack, fantastic detail to the graphics

Plus its cheap,

innerpattern · Post by **innerpattern** » Sat May 30, 2009 2:21 am

Domino wrote:
innerpattern wrote:ibara = some dude who has made mostly shit soundtracks (ridgeracer 6! )
And you're saying that the Under Defeat soundtrack was also shit (also was done by Shinji Hosoe)!!??

does it have tons of butt-loving synth guitar wails and faux hard rock drumming? then yes.

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Sat May 30, 2009 2:42 am

I like Cave and generally don't like Raizing, but Ibara Arrange on the PS2 port is tons of fun. I love the rank meter and the manipulation of the rank for scoring. Feels different from other Yagawa games, and the choice of slow movement by holding shot is a welcome addition from Cave.

Regular Ibara, though, not a fan.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sat May 30, 2009 3:28 am

kengou wrote:Ibara Arrange on the PS2 port is tons of fun.

Agreed. If only the PCB were this version.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Sat May 30, 2009 3:45 am

jonny5 wrote:cave fans hate ibara....raizing fans love it.....

if you enjoy yagawa, you will like ibara.....otherwise avoid it

What? No. I enjoy Batrider and Garegga and I cannot fucking stand Ibara at all.

Raizing fans love it because they have NOTHING ELSE. There's Pink Sweets and MMP which are both inaccessible to the majority (and having owned MMP, I can say it isn't by any means stellar) and a horrible port from 2006 of Ibara which is only barely playable on an XRGB2+ if you're willing to play with Arrange only. There's that sorry excuse for a scoring system, along with inconsistent "strategic bombing" which I find to be a complete bore and about of equal in memorization as what Ikaruga's chaining has. The game is graphically one of the best, but that's about it.

Ibara BL looks fun, though. I like the visible boss bars as well as the rank meter, but I probably won't ever get to play it unless it drops to the same price as the regular Ibara kit is currently. Even then, Ibara BL isn't popular nor is it desirable, much like the original game.

I'm glad I still had Mushi and DOJ to play back when Ibara was released, otherwise it probably would have pushed me out of the genre completely. I thought to myself, "if this is what the future of shmups holds, I'm out" and went back to Mushi (then in that same year, I 1cc'd it) while playing random stuff and watching Cave's line. Futari came out, which is when I decided to get a Supergun so I could check it, and Ketsui out. I decided to give the Yagawa line another chance with MMP, but it didn't click, and I sold it within a month. Death Smiles I followed really closely, like a lot, and I love the port. Daifukkatsu looks neat, although a bit easy. Things have definitely picked up since Ibara.

Post-90's Raizing just feels like they're trying to repeat history covered up in more loli fashion. It's getting old.

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Sat May 30, 2009 3:55 am

Elixir wrote:
jonny5 wrote:cave fans hate ibara....raizing fans love it.....

if you enjoy yagawa, you will like ibara.....otherwise avoid it
What? No. I enjoy Batrider and Garegga and I cannot fucking stand Ibara at all.

Raizing fans love it because they have NOTHING ELSE. There's Pink Sweets and MMP which are both inaccessible to the majority (and having owned MMP, I can say it isn't by any means stellar) and a horrible port from 2006 of Ibara which is only barely playable on an XRGB2+ if you're willing to play with Arrange only. There's that sorry excuse for a scoring system, along with inconsistent "strategic bombing" which I find to be a complete bore and about of equal in memorization as what Ikaruga's chaining has. The game is graphically one of the best, but that's about it.

Ibara BL looks fun, though. I like the visible boss bars as well as the rank meter, but I probably won't ever get to play it unless it drops to the same price as the regular Ibara kit is currently. Even then, Ibara BL isn't popular nor is it desirable, much like the original game.

Chi_Ryu · Post by **Chi_Ryu** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:06 am

professor ganson wrote:
kengou wrote:Ibara Arrange on the PS2 port is tons of fun.
Agreed. If only the PCB were this version.

...then I'd be much less interested in it. I like Ibara without the Cave-style gameplay mechanics and prefer the original to PS2 arrange mode. I've never played Ibara Kuro, so can't comment on that, though.

Elixir wrote:(and having owned MMP, I can say it isn't by any means stellar)

Objection!

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:28 am

innerpattern wrote:ibara = some dude who has made mostly shit soundtracks (ridgeracer 6! )

Don't be hatin' on Hosoe. Sure, his best days are over, but the same is true for Namiki. Hosoe has some classic stuff like Street Fighter EX and Internal Section and old Namco games like Dragon Spirit and Metal Hawk. OST-wise to me, Garegga > Ibara > every other Cave game, and it's not even close.

Icarus: Yagawa was just as involved with Bakraid as Garegga. It's somewhat strange because they are pretty different, but on the other hand, you can't deny it's typical twisted Yagawa to require constant suiciding to score well. There's a logical but insane progression from suiciding to constant suiciding to infinite lives. I'm waiting for the game where you trigger completely different game mechanics, lol.

Random points:

- The vast majority of people prefer Garegga's OST. It's a classic. Namiki himself considers it both his most significant and favorite work.
- Ibara definitely has more milking than Garegga.
- Laos's score in Batrider isn't due to a trick we don't know about, AFAIK it's just autofire chip milking and high rank.

ncp · Post by **ncp** » Sat May 30, 2009 5:14 am

Ibara would be a near-perfect game if not for the weird-ass milking on some of the bosses (stage 3 and stage 6 bosses, especially, can be milked for multiple millions each which is just bullshit considering the overall scoring of the game). I usually don't mind milking too much, but when it yields such a disproportionate amount of points, it starts to really hurt the game. The stages in Ibara are awesomely fun and packed with things to discover. The soundtrack is pretty damn good, especially the stage 6 and first Theresa songs. Fun fact: the Saturn version of Garegga's stage 5 (one of the greatest video game tracks ever) remix was by Shinji Hosoe.

innerpattern · Post by **innerpattern** » Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 am

Enhasa wrote:Sure, his best days are over, but the same is true for Namiki.

Death Smiles OST all the way back in 2007 is pretty good for someone with their best days over...regardless of lolis or any other cave idiocy that soundtrack is quite solid and contributed greatly to the success of the game.

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Sat May 30, 2009 5:39 am

innerpattern wrote:
MSZ wrote:I must be the only guy who likes Garegga's soundtrack more.

Twiddle wrote:no, no you aren't

there's just a lot of people with bad taste
I have to agree because Ibara isn't even remotely close.

garegga OST = Manabu Namiki (Thunder Dragon 2, Mahou ,APB, DOJ,Ketsui, DS)
ibara = some dude who has made mostly shit soundtracks (ridgeracer 6! )

Manabu Namiki also did the cool BGM tunes for Banpresto's 1993 Macross II: Lovers Again arcade shmup PCB. Sounds great when fired up in sound test mode. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

spineshark · Post by **spineshark** » Sat May 30, 2009 6:25 am

Ibara's fun and I like it, but I don't consider it anywhere near Garegga. The game is pretty weird-looking; I agree with the "washed out" comment, though a lot of the art design is still awfully cool. Honestly though, the main reason I have a hard time really enjoying it is because stage 1 is so frustrating to play for score. After that, it's quite fun and I like a lot of the bosses.

Arrange mode is fun, but it just feels too easy to me. I think the rank mechanics ping-pong too much; if it was harder to bring it back down, it'd be a whole lot more exciting. I never dug into it for score too deep though.

Don't be hatin' on Hosoe. Sure, his best days are over, but the same is true for Namiki. Hosoe has some classic stuff like Street Fighter EX and Internal Section and old Namco games like Dragon Spirit and Metal Hawk. OST-wise to me, Garegga > Ibara > every other Cave game, and it's not even close.

I would say this about almost every game composer I can think of who's been in it for >15 years at this point. Even ones like Uematsu who have always been overrated. I really like Dangun and most of the Cave sequel soundtracks, because as much as Namiki just rehashes his stuff, I tend to like it better the second time =/

Also I think Hosoe is still really entertaining when he gets to do one-offs that don't have to relate to anything in particular. If he could do a whole game full of crazy shit I'm pretty sure I'd love it.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Sat May 30, 2009 8:04 am

One of the main reasons why people can't stand Ibara probably is that they won't ever see stage 3 or stage 4 on one credit. The game's just too brutally difficult. Garegga on the other hand is much more forgiving.

Ibara has one of the most detailed graphic styles I've ever seen. There's so much going on in stage 1, the first time you play it, you won't get what's going on - shrapnel, debris and explosions all over the place! However, if you put a few more coins in it, you'll really come to appreciate it's beauty.
The only problem I have with this game, is, that it doesn't distinguish between piercing shot, regular shot and bomb so often anymore. Destroying certain enemies with different subweapons is one of my favourite bits in Garegga.
Regarding the soundtracks, I love both, although Garegga's one should be oldschool, it was WAY ahead of it's time. Nearly every track is awesome. Ibara on the other hand has excellent tracks (1, 5, boss), but also some not-so-good-ones (2, 4).

Conclusion:
It's hard to say which one I like more. Both are in my top five ever. Ibara is easily Cave's best and Garegga is Raizing's best game. (imo) Playing either Garegga or Ibara makes my day - nothing beats a suicide in the morning.

If I had to decide, I'd take Garegga though. It's the more complicated game overall and can keep you busy for years, lives even. It's definitely one of these taking-to-a-distant-island-games.

Ibara is perfect.
Garegga is more.

(Oh and yes, of course I'm a manic fanboy)

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sat May 30, 2009 10:42 am

19th best shmup of all-time

it290 · Post by **it290** » Sat May 30, 2009 1:31 pm

freddiebamboo = post of the century.

dpful · Post by **dpful** » Sat May 30, 2009 2:50 pm

jonny5 wrote:
dpful wrote:
professor ganson wrote:
I love the density and ambuguity in the graphics, though, same with garegga. In garegga, it was because everything looked similar, in ibara it's because everything looks washed out.
you need a new monitor.....i have no idea what you are talking about with the washed out colors......what were you playing it on?

have you ever owned any other sh3 games?

i think you just needed to tweak your monitor levels....

in my experience, normal monitor settings(that work for most games) makes sh3 stuff looks washed out......i always have to tweak when i switch them

I agree. It seems like I can never get it tweaked enough, though- I mean, I don't think I've ever gotten a picture as sharp and bold as, say,... well, any other of my games.

I think I might have tried turning the board's contrast down a bit and then the monitors contrast way up before with ok results.

I've got a few monitors I try it on- I think the board is just at the end of their ranges. I used to have this one monitor that made everything look great, but it was before I got ibara

mrtie · Post by **mrtie** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:04 pm

I like ibara, the first time I saw video of it I knew I was going to own the pcb. For me it's more like Garegga with visible bullets strangely. I hadn't put any serious time into the game until very recently, and I'm still pretty bad at it, but I'm a relative shmup newbie, it however starting to click for me and it feels pretty amazing. I enjoyed the game enough that I have since bought Pink Sweets, which I'm not entirely sure about yet, but I'm sure offers a lot more then I am getting out of it just yet. Will the damn port being so damn expensive and people warming to Ibara I'm surprised the prices haven't floated up a bit.