Forcing Fake Hi-Res back to true Low-Res on a HDTV

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu May 31, 2007 1:56 am

If I'm not mistaken, for old game systems (16-bit mainly) and games that support 240p (a handful on the PS2, most [all?] 2D games on the PS, Saturn ,etc), XRGB + an HDTV will work just fine, assuming you have the RGB cables, and your TV handles VGA in.

For interlaced games that you want to force into 240p, there is something like this:

PS3 (converts to 480p) > component to VGA transcoder > emotia > XRGB2+ > VGA to component transcoder > HDTV

If I'm not mistaken, wanderer had a similar set up. I played it. The lag was awful. Only RPGs and Adventure games would work w/ this. Tried Mushihime-sama. No love.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:32 am

I'm not getting any lag so far that I notice. I deffinately get no lag with the XRGB so the emotia would be the only thing to add it; I've been playing game on it so far and haven't noticed anything.

I'm getting ready to add full screen shots....

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:38 am

The forum is scaling the pics, you have to view em at actual size for it to look right. Should have taken the pics at a lower resolution. I'm tired of messing with it for now...

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:01 am

I played wanderer's old (temporary) setup too. Horrible lag, as GJP noted. Unplayable.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:07 am

I played wanderer's old (temporary) setup too. Horrible lag, as GJP noted. Unplayable.

What was his set up? I thought he had it going through a PC then to his TV? I really have noticed no lag so far. The XRGB2+ deffinately does not add lag, we all know that. The VGA/Component transcoders add no lag either. The only thing left is the emotia unit, it works like an XRGB in reverse so i don't see why it would.

I'll play with it more and see if I notice any, so far I honestlt haven't. Maybe I suck to hard to notice

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:08 am

Strider77 wrote: What was his set up? I thought he had it going through a PC then to his TV? :

Right, it was going through a PC. Pretty sure that caused the lag. If you're not going through a PC you may not have lag.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu May 31, 2007 5:09 am

I'm deffinately not going through a PC right now.

D · Post by D » Thu May 31, 2007 10:01 am

Strider77 wrote:How can I get VGA out of a PS2? I am serious about that question.

http://www.xploder.net/products/161/Xpl ... r-PS2-.htm
Your seriousness has been noted

I have no experience knowledge of it, but it fascinates me nontheless.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:38 pm

I still don't quite understand why the uglier picture is somehow considered the preferred image other than personal preference.

I'll post full screen pics once I can get more batteries for my dig cam. I think once folks see the full screen effect they'll see why I prefer it this way on some games.

Folks who all ready know this problem probably get what the results look like full screen from my upclose pics....

I borrowed a component to VGA transcoder from a friend to see the results on mushi ect on PS2. I would post pics but all I am able to do is DC ports till I get that transcoder myself. That's why i used SSFTX and Vampire Savior on DC.

angrycoder · Post by **angrycoder** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:18 pm

so basically you've taken a 1-2 thousand dollar tv and several hundred dollars worth of transcoders/upscalers/whatever to get the same picture you could on a 25 dollar tube tv you could pick up at any garage sale?

Wow, way to go?

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:24 pm

angrycoder wrote:so basically you've taken a 1-2 thousand dollar tv and several hundred dollars worth of transcoders/upscalers/whatever to get the same picture you could on a 25 dollar tube tv you could pick up at any garage sale?

Wow, way to go?

yep

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:07 pm

no.... I use the expensive tv to play all the new games that are out in HD, this next gen provides a SIGNIFICANT advantage in the visual department for those with a HDTV. I also to play all 3D games scaled up to HD that have a means to be scaled up.

I use the XRGB to bring lower res games (480i and down) up to 480p so they look good on the HDTV (so it'll bypass the TVs scaling), as good as they did on a low res display (or better actually).

I use the emotia to add back scanlines and correct a game's resolution if the port was poorly scaled like Ibara, mushi ect....

The XRGB was 200, the VGA to component transcoder 65, and the emotia 75. It not like i bought them all at once or use them all JUST to add in scanlines.

Anyone with a real brain knows that using an XRGB for lower res games on a HDTV is the way to go and is a DRAMATIC increase in picture and negates any lag.

The VGA to component transcoder is for displaying Dreamcast with VGA and so i can hook up the XRGB. Dreamcast games look vastly better in VGA.

The emotia was the only unit I purchased to force games back into 240p and that was 65.00.

Have you not played ESPgaluda or DDP DOJ?!? You have to see that those games look fantastic compared to the Ibara or Mushi ports.... and it's because that are in 240p and not 480i. EVERYONE on here praises those ports b/c they were handled so well by ARIKA. I am really waiting now for someone to reply and tell me that the mushi/ibara ports are just as good as the ARIKA ports....

I have one room that I have all my stuff inside of and I live with a significant other. We don't live in a house that is nothing but monitors, TVs, arcade cabs and shit lying all over. We keep the house presentable. If your house is a huge arcade I'm envious but I can't do that here. I have one room and I have just enough space for all that I have in there.

Another high quality display of resonable size would be at least another 200.00 to match the quality I'm getting with this set up and take up more room i don't have. And even if I went that route I'd still have the VGA to component transcoder for the DC and the XRGB (games going through the XRGB to my HDTV look better than they ever did going into low res display, all those interlaced 3D titles being output in 480p look much better.

several hundred dollars worth of transcoders/upscalers/whatever to get the same picture you could on a 25 dollar tube tv you could pick up at any garage sale

Stop being so eager to make yourself seem so clever.... it's not like I'm forcing VF5 into low res. I use the HDTV for signal 480p, 720p and 1080i also.

Either you aren't reading or you don't have enough knowledge....

I use the emotia to FORCE games back into their original resolution for ONLY the games that the ports were screwed up on. EVEN if I hooked up the games they screwed up the resulution on to a "25 dollar tube tv" I would still HAVE to run it into an emotia then out to that TV. It has NOTHING to do with the fact it's running into an HDTV. The poor visual effect has to do with the PORT, not the TV wether it be SD, HD or whatever that effect will be present UNLESS I use the emotia.

I've been pretty polite till this point but some folks don't even understand what is being done in the procress or completely ignoring the fact that that I use my HDTV for games in 480p and up, then use the other equipment so i can display VGA or older lower res games on it also.

there is a nice article here on it that helped me on all this.

http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

angrycoder · Post by **angrycoder** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:42 am

I understand exactly what you are doing, I understand the problem, I just think its a completely ridiculous solution that is easily solved by having a second tv. Sure, it may look a little little strange having two TVs in your living room, but no stranger than having your entertainment center look like a control panel for the fucking Death Star.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:59 am

I understand exactly what you are doing, I understand the problem, I just think its a completely ridiculous solution that is easily solved by having a second tv.

If you think having a second tv fill force a 480i game that originally was 240p back into 240p, then you have no idea at all. All that will do is give me the same problem on my HDTV. I said before the type of TV has NOTHING to do with the fact the ports were CHANGED to a crappier visual.

ignorant.... and that's ok but refusing to listen and learn and continue to be wrong just to sound right to yourself is pointless.

mannerbot · Post by **mannerbot** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:13 am

It's not that he's ignorant, it's that he just doesn't care. Some people are fine with fake high-res.

angrycoder · Post by **angrycoder** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:21 am

Strider77 wrote:
I understand exactly what you are doing, I understand the problem, I just think its a completely ridiculous solution that is easily solved by having a second tv.
If you think having a second tv fill force a 480i game that originally was 240p back into 240p, then you have no idea at all. All that will do is give me the same problem on my HDTV. I said before the type of TV has NOTHING to do with the fact the ports were CHANGED to a crappier visual.

ignorant.... and that's ok but refusing to listen and learn and continue to be wrong just to sound right to yourself is pointless.

Fine, then get yourself a commodore 1084s or some other RGB monitor. Still a more elegant solution that cramming your signal though nine hundred converters.

Just because someone doesn't think your solution is OMFGawesome doesn't make them ignorant. But please, feel free to continue with the name calling in order to justify your completely ridiculous solution.

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:30 am

meh quit accosting him for it, i'd kinda like to see the full screen pics. and like he said he doesn't have room for a monitor. it sounds kinda silly to me too but no reason to fuss at him about it.

angrycoder · Post by **angrycoder** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:40 am

yeah, good point. Glad you are happy with the solution, sorry to be a party pooper. Even though I technically understand what you are talking about, the benefits must be over my head.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:44 am

angrycoder wrote:I understand exactly what you are doing, I understand the problem, I just think its a completely ridiculous solution that is easily solved by having a second tv.

Actualy you don't understand, he's wanting to add scanlines to an interlaced 480i picture and convert it to 240p (or at least make it look like 240p on his HDTV). A second cheap TV or commadore RGB monitor is not going make a bit of difference.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:45 am

It's not that he's ignorant, it's that he just doesn't care. Some people are fine with fake high-res.

and that's totally ok... but telling me that a different display will magically make fake Hi-res go away is not true.

elegant or not it gets what I need done and provides me with any option I see fit. all of it is hidden and tidy..... and the picure weather i choose fake Hi res or Low res looks fantastic for that signal.

Actualy you don't understand, he's wanting to add scanlines to an interlaced 480i picture and convert it to 240p (or at least make it look like 240p on his HDTV). A second cheap TV or commadore RGB monitor is not going make a bit of difference.

THANK YOU..... weather or not this guy cares about fake hi res or not, he still understands how things work.^^

This post wasn't to convince everyone to go to the extremes I did but it was here for those that are interested or have wondered about tackling the problem also. This is concrete and tested by me, and when i was figuring things out it helped me quite a bit talking to those who had accomplished some of the tasks them selves and could confirm my idea would work or offer a solution they has discovered.

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:08 am

angrycoder wrote:Sure, it may look a little little strange having two TVs in your living room, but no stranger than having your entertainment center look like a control panel for the fucking Death Star.

Quote of the week.

angrycoder · Post by **angrycoder** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:20 am

Dave_K. wrote:
Actualy you don't understand, he's wanting to add scanlines to an interlaced 480i picture and convert it to 240p (or at least make it look like 240p on his HDTV). A second cheap TV or commadore RGB monitor is not going make a bit of difference.

480i already has scanlines doesn't it? That must be what I'm not understanding, I thought interlaced pictures by definition have scanlines.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:20 am

angrycoder wrote:
Dave_K. wrote:
Actualy you don't understand, he's wanting to add scanlines to an interlaced 480i picture and convert it to 240p (or at least make it look like 240p on his HDTV). A second cheap TV or commadore RGB monitor is not going make a bit of difference.
480i already has scanlines doesn't it? That must be what I'm not understanding, I thought interlaced pictures by definition have scanlines.

480i interlaced video means 480 lines of interleaved video fields that are flickering so fast it looks like one stable image of 480 lines - even though an NTSC TV can't display 480 lines, so no noticeable scanlines. 240p progressive video is the native resolution of most 15khz TVs and RGB monitors with no flickering, just rock solid picture at ~60hz with noticable scanlines. This is usually what most arcade PCBs output at 15khz.

Animaitor · Post by **Animaitor** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:58 am

Strider77, sorry to bring this post to life. I was wondering what games will take advantage of the Emotia using a Dreamcast or a PS3. How is the image you get when connecting your PS3 + Emotia + XRBG? Have you tried with a 360? I'm sure it's easy since the 360 already has the VGA cable (wonder how DDP: DOJ looks with the Emotia) Would love to see some pics!!

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:47 am

You and GP talked about it some in the 360 Futari thread... I commented in there. If you have questions ect after reading ask.

As long as the grafix in DOJ on the 360 are str8 up line doubled and that's IT.... it will look just like it does for those DC game pics I posted.

If it's filtered the results COULD still be pretty good, as long as it's not REALLY bad.

My biggest concern would be if it's line doubled or not scaling wise. I know the image can be gotten at 480p from the 360, but it kind of depends on the games naitive resoltion and how the 360 handles it. I wouldn't worry about lag from the 360.... just how it handles scaling.

Once I get death smiles and a VGA cable for the 360 I could do pics. Well I guess just a VGA cable. I could use the Raiden Fighter and Metal Slug 3 demos.

thamasha69 · Post by **thamasha69** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:51 am

I would love to see these results, as I have a 2 360's, an XRGB2+, and a 360 vga cable. Just missing the Emotia...if all looks/works as it should regarding DDP DOJ, Death Smiles, and other 360 titles, I will certainly buy an Emotia.

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:39 am

Personally the stretching that happens to older stuff on an HDTV is more annoying than the fake-ish upscaling, but again, just personal preference. Or anti-preference I guess...

I do wish it were easier to faithfully reproduce the image with older equipment on newer sets, but I'm just not willing to jump through many hoops (or spend that much money on specialized equipment) to pull it off.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:31 am

Striders achievements are educational to me, but like the rest have said its a bit much having all that equipment hanging about. I have 2 of the units already but hardly use them. A crap port to me is a crap port, therefore I just buy the PCB. Mushi was one of my last acquisitions.

I think the best thing is that Cave go 480p/1080p or something else pretty soon because its a bit retarded having these conversion problems.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:17 am

neorichieb1971 wrote: I think the best thing is that Cave go 480p/1080p or something else pretty soon because its a bit retarded having these conversion problems.

Death Smiles 2 is most likely 480p, and it looks fucking awful.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:53 am

it is a rat race.... mushi was the last straw for me. the PS2 version was to horrible looking for me. i loved the game so much it just didn't cut it. GP sold me a kit and it was snowballed from there for me.

I will be getting deathsmiles for 360... we'll see how it goes.

If cave would create everything from the start in hi res that's one thing. they'd have to do it well though. plus if they go with 3D stuff they need to step up the visuals more than from what I'm seeing with DS2.... it does look awful so far.