scanlines, love them or... love them!!

[Animaitor]

Scanlines, what a difference they make!! I'm one of those people who believe an image coming out from whatever console looks much better with scanlines if applied in most shmups and 2D games. I'm about to purchase a Saturn (Battle Garegga RS, here I come!) and PS3 60GB so I can start getting all those sweet shmups for the PSX and PS2 too (plus some PS3 games and Blu-ray movies). I already have a 360 JP and Dreamcast connected to an LCD Dell 2405FPW (great for tate and has a lot of inputs... DVI, VGA, component, composite and S-video but not very scanline friendly I'm afraid). Unfortunately I'm missing an important factor for my gaming addiction: scanlines. Even in mameplus, after applying the scanline filter I get vertical scanlines instead and nothing remotely near to what you can see at the arcades (probably due to my LCD monitor?) But not all hope is lost. Found out the XRGB2+ and XRGB-3 will help to get scanlines!

My setup right now is as follows:

LCD Dell 2405FPW

PC (DVI)
Dreamcast (VGA)
XBox 360 (VGA)
XBox (component)

Soon:
Saturn (?)
PS3 (?)

I've read Fudoh's "Deinterlacing classic videogame systems" and "Scanlines demystified" and found them extremely helpful (thanks Fudoh!!) yet, I still have some questions and as you will see I'm a little confused. Sorry if this has been explained before but I tried to gather as much information a I could regarding this matter. Strider77 might know as well since he uses an XRGB2+ with his PS3... Anyways, here are the questions.

Is it possible to use a PS3 + XRGB-3 + LCD monitor and play all those Cave games with scanlines or should I get a cheap PS2 instead? At Fudoh's site I could see beautiful images of MS but always running on a PS2 and not PS3. Is it because when the PS3 emulates a PS2 doesn't do 240p? 480p and up will not show scanlines, correct?

What cables should be used and what is the best connection (inputs and outputs) between a console (all of the above) + XRGB + LCD (or TV)? It seems like to any console I use (not last Gen), the RGB scart cables should be use to display scanlines and get the best picture quality, right? Remember, I'm trying to get as close as possible to the arcade "experience" in terms of image quality without spending tons of money on PCBs.

What about the Dreamcast? Right now I use the VGA Box and some games look great (3D) but most look too "clean" and are missing something... you know what I mean Fudoh sensei shows some DC running SF III 3rd Strike + scan converter (XRBG?) through VGA. How?

Is it possible to get scanlines on the 360?

Is there another way to get scanlines (HDBoxPro or similar)?

I wonder if my Dell LCD will be a problem if I get the XRBG-3 to display scanlines or if it will cause any delay with shmups. What LCD monitor do you recommend to use with the XRGB-3 that can tate and display 240p?

I also have a Sony CRT TV (D4 and composite inputs) that I'm willing to use if my Dell turns out to be useless on this setup. An HDTV is not an option right now. I barely watch TV. Sorry if I'm not making any sense. Working 12 hours a day doesn't help either Hope I can get some help from you guys and bring those beautiful scanlines to my games. Thanks for your time and patience people!!

[LuckyDay]

I actually have a Dell 2405 sitting around somewhere. It looks alright going through VGA for stuff like Dreamcast and obviously for MAME and PC.

If you end up trying it with an XRGB let me know how it looks. I'm curious to see the result. I might pull it out, it's so easy to rotate that monitor.

[Fudoh]

Even in mameplus, after applying the scanline filter I get vertical scanlines instead and nothing remotely near to what you can see at the arcades (probably due to my LCD monitor?)

MAME is extremely flexible. You can add your self-defined scanline patterns. I usually use an older Direct Draw MAME version, but after 5minutes of work in a current D3D MAME version I got it to look like this:



With this being my overlay pattern:


You're controling the density and the look of your scanlines yourself. If you like it you add a colored aperture look to the scanline emuluation, but I prefer the look without it.

Is it because when the PS3 emulates a PS2 doesn't do 240p? 480p and up will not show scanlines, correct?

That's right. Even if you use a SD signal from a PS3 (RGB or component cable with interlaced output) you won't get 240p and thus the XRGBs can't do any scanline emulation on the signals. So you need a PS2 for the setup you want.

What cables should be used and what is the best connection

you can either use component (on a PS2), or RGB cables. They give you the same quality and they both support 240p.

What about the Dreamcast?

two ways: either you use a RGB cable directly into a XRGB. This only works with games running in 240p instead of 480i though. Bangai-oh for example works fine, but the Gigawings won't. Another way is to run VGA (480p) into a Extron Emotia and RGB 240p from there to a XRGB. Emotias are about $50 on ebay.com. The conversion is high quality and lagfree.

Is it possible to get scanlines on the 360?

Same as with Dreamcast (Emotia-wise). There are no games directly running in 240p though, so it's either Emotia or no scanlines at all.

Is there another way to get scanlines (HDBoxPro or similar)?

there's a way with graphics overlay using a capture card, but it's more expensive than a XRGB and it's not lagfree.

wonder if my Dell LCD will be a problem if I get the XRBG-3 to display scanlines or if it will cause any delay with shmups.

From the age of your monitor I'd say that it's probably lagfree out of the box. The grey-to-grey reaction time is not this great which makes me assume that no hardcore-lag-introducing-overdrive is used. The question remaining is how good your dell is upscaling a scanlined VGA picture.
You can quite easily test this. Download this testpattern http://pms.hazard-city.de/50grey_1920x1080.gif and cut out a 640x480 area. Set is as your background and set Windows to 640x480 resolution. If your monitor upscales the background without interferences you're good to go.

I also have a Sony CRT TV (D4 and composite inputs) that I'm willing to use if my Dell turns out to be useless on this setup.

By feeding D1 to the Sony you would get native scanlines without an XRGB. You'd only need a RGB to YUV converter (about $40) and an Emotia if you want 240p-style scanlines on your DC and 360 games.

[Animaitor]

LuckyDay, it looks like I'll end up getting the XRGB-3 so as soon as I run some tests I'll post the results here.

Fudoh, thanks a bunch man! I created different overlay patterns for scanlines to use with mame but the one you provided looks the best by far I just rotated it 90 degrees so the scanlines go horizontally.

That's right. Even if you use a SD signal from a PS3 (RGB or component cable with interlaced output) you won't get 240p and thus the XRGBs can't do any scanline emulation on the signals. So you need a PS2 for the setup you want.

Is your statement true outputing the video signal to an HDTV or also to a CRT TV? Dammit!! I really wanted to get a PS3 60GB (3 in 1 console + extras). I thought the PS3 was able to do 240p when running PS2 games (at least some, as you mentioned in another thread) although you don't mention scanlines:

ESPGaluda & DDP3 on PS3 have a special Tate setting which switches the games from 480i to 240p. They look really great this way, much better than with all other viewing modes.

Also from your "Deinterlacing classic videogame systems":

Sony Playstation 3

If your vintage gaming needs are limited to PS1 and/or PS2 games you might want to consider getting a PS3 and playing your PS1 and PS2 games on this one. Only the older 60gb PS3 models did have a hardware PS2 emulator integrated, the newer PS3 models are only able to play PS1 games.

PS1 games are rendered in software and can be output in any resolution you want. If you set your output to 480p you get a PS1 picture very similar to what the good videoprocessors will do. Being emulated, there are no deinterlacing artefacts at all. If you set the output to 1080p the picture gets a bit too sharp. Every single pixel is dead-on with this setting. The only (small) downside to playing PS1 games is that you're limited to the region of your PS3 (e.g. only US PS1 games on your US PS3) and that there's a small delay of about 1.5 frames.

PS2 games are rendered in hardware (in 480p) and the output is scaled afterwards if you decide to set your output to 1080p or another HDTV resolution. With 480p HDMI output the picture's a bit on the soft side, but that be be adjusted on the TV's side. You get proper 240p handling (drop shadows are fine) and the usual deinterlacing errors on 480i material (e.g. artefacts in the shadows). When you choose 1080p output you get really bad background scaling and panning in addition. As a plus you get nearly artefact-free drop shadows in 480i games - don't ask me why... There's also a 2-frame delay for all PS2 240p/480i titles.


MSX: best picture a deinterlacer can achieve, since it's software rendered

ESP: soft picture, but good 240p handling, errors on 480i mode

WOT: the PS3 is limited to Playstation games of course


Pros: if you got PS3 already, use it for PS1 games, it's nice and the lag is acceptable

Cons: only the old PS3 models had a PS2 mode. 2-frame delay on PS2 games, soft picture, weird 1080p scaling, pricey just for PS1 games.

Am I missing something? Maybe my 2 brain cells left can process more information, sorry. What about 480i? The XRBG-3 should be able to do some scanlines at that resolution.

As for the Dreamcast, will this work? Run the game using the RGB scart to the XRGB and from here to my LCD through VGA or DVI. I wonder if doing this on a CRT TV gives different results. I guess it depends on how well the LCD deals with the image scaling. By the way, I tested the image pattern you mentioned and the LCD displayed no interferences on 640x480 so it probably upscales fine. Just, don't know how much delay will it give in return. What exactly does the Emotia do in the process? Now I just have one brain cell left. How could such device give scanlines on games running under the 360? I might get the XRGB-3 first and see what kind of image and scanlines I get. Shipping the Emotia to Japan will be a little pricey but the machine itself is pretty cheap. I saw 2 of this machines on eBay right now but not the same models as you mentioned on your site. By the way, would love to see DDP DOJ BL running on a 360 with scanlines though!

Thanks again for your comments Fudoh!!

[neorichieb1971]

The DC has VGA output on it, therefore most peoples preferences are to do that. Scanlines on DC are really a novelty thing.

The PS3 has no built in support for 240p since its a resolution that was regarded as obsolete in this era.

[Fudoh]

I just rotated it 90 degrees so the scanlines go horizontally.

MAME has an automatic rotation function, so if you use the overlay pattern provided scanlines automatically show up horizontally on horizontally oriented games and vertically on vertically orientated games. But it's probably just a setting somewhere if MAME behaves otherwise on your setup...

Is your statement true outputing the video signal to an HDTV or also to a CRT TV? Dammit!!

I honestly never tested a PS3 with SD output, but I will do so today or tomorrow. I've so often heard from people that the mininum physical output is 480i that I believe it to be true.

My statement about ESP & DDP3 refers to the internal upscaling of the PS3. The PS3 does a very nice job (minus the lag) of upscaling 240p games, so if you set EPS/DDP3 to 240p internally a - let's say - HDMI 1080p picture from the PS3 will look quite nice.

What about 480i? The XRBG-3 should be able to do some scanlines at that resolution.

As written elsewhere the XRGB2plus and XRGB-3 in B1 are basically "CRT look emulators", they try to make 240p and 480i looks as close as possible as they would look like on a CRT. 480i games on a CRT do have thin scanlines, BUT not those you're used to from the screenshots or from 240p material. When you ask about scanlines for 480i games you're probably expecting "240p scanlines" on those games. That's not possible. The only way to get this is to convert the 480i games to 240p first and run them into the XRGB then.

As for the Dreamcast, will this work? Run the game using the RGB scart to the XRGB and from here to my LCD through VGA or DVI.

of course it works, but on a CRT it's senseless as you don't gain anything. On the LCD it depends on the LCDs scaling and on the question if you want scanlines (thick in 240p or thin on 480i) or not.

What exactly does the Emotia do in the process?

The Emotia can convert 480p VGA to 240p RGB. Easy example: Mars Matrix on the DC. It's running in 480p via VGA and in 480i via RGB. It looks nice in VGA, but it does not look like the arcade version. Use an Emotia in between you get native 240p which gives you native scanlines on a CRT or emulated (thick) scanlines through an XRGB. Same goes for 360 games.

I might get the XRGB-3 first and see what kind of image and scanlines I get.

Do that. In my experience scanlines are very nice to have, but not neccessary on every single game. I can appreciate games natively running in 480p or higher as well. It's just those 480i ones which makes you want to do something about them. Fortunately there are other ways (like patching them to 240p like Mushihimesama or forcing them into 480p with a HDTV Exploder disc like Gradius V).

I saw 2 of this machines on eBay right now but not the same models as you mentioned on your site.

Emotia, Emotia II, Super Emotia, Super Emotia II and the GX versions of them all work fine. Not sure about the Extreme editions.

By the way, would love to see DDP DOJ BL running on a 360 with scanlines though!

I don't have an Emotia left in my setup. Too much cabling for my taste. I also like to run games in Yoko mode (vertically on a horizontal screen). You might have read the Yokotate article I've written. And the whole scanline process (either with a XRGB and / or with an Emotia) only works in Tate.

[Animaitor]

Hello again! Sorry for the late replay and thank you so much for all the helpful information you provide Fudoh! I'm almost done with the project at work so very soon I'll have more time to do tests.

Ended up getting an XRGB-3, an Extron Super Emotia, a cheap PS2, an even cheaper Saturn and Neo Geo AES plus an official RGB cable for each console. So far I'm having good scanline results except for the Dreamcast. I hook it up to the Super Emotia using the DC VGA cable, from there to the XRGB-3 with another VGA cable and from there to my LCD monitor with yet another VGA cable. The results are the same as connecting the DC directly to the LCD. I read your explanation again and if I'm not wrong, you mentioned RGB... should I connect the Emotia to the XRBG-3 using a VGA to RGB cable like this one?



I've got a couple of other problems that I believe are related to the XRGB-3 when I connect a Neo Geo so I'll post this matter on its thread.

[Fudoh]

You're using the VGA passthrough Outout from the Emotia. You have to use the 15khz RGBs output from the Emotia (4 BNC plugs on the Emotia side to Scart on the XRGB side). In addition set the switch on front to "non-interlaced".

[Animaitor]

I see... I was wrong again

Something like this will do right?



I'll go around Akihabara's small cross street maze near the JR sta. on my lunch brake and see if I can find the cable. Last time I had one of those 4BNC cables was a looong time ago to be used on a huge monitor and pretty expensive too! But hell, scanlines on the Dreamcast and 360 have no price

I'll test this on the weekend. Thanks Fudoh!

EDIT: no luck in Akiba... the closest thing they had was a 5BNC to VGA. I guess I'll have to buy it online. Should I be worry about the pinout on the scart side? I guess it's a good idea not to buy the cable in Europe since I'll be using it with the XRBG-3... Does the US or UK have the same pinout on the scart as Japan?

[Fudoh]

Should I be worry about the pinout on the scart side?

yes, you need a japanese scart layout and you have to pay attention if it's a Scart -> BNC or BNC -> Scart cable, since they are one-way. Usually you have to get one custom made. You can PM me if you don't know anyone who can do it.

[Animaitor]

Got the contact! Thanks Fudoh! By the way, did you read this:

http://nfgworld.com/mb/thread/660

Not too deep but good as an introduction. Your name is mentioned along with your great articles!

[SGGG2]

Finally managed to get a working Emotia off ebay. I'm using an iScan Pro to convert component (PS2, GC) to VGA, so far it seems like a novelty more than anything else, I like the scanlines but not the loss of detail. Hmmm... might have to pick up one of those blackmagic cards. Anyway, here's Zone of the Enders 2 running at 240p. The second pic has scanlines cranked up for emphasis.

http://imgur.com/hxdc3.jpg
http://imgur.com/pwPu0.jpg

[Fudoh]

Sorry for asking, but is there any point to "scanline" a game which is natively running in 480i ? If you have a game which was originally running in 240p and it's output in 480i by the system in question, then upscaling and "scanlining" it works quite nice. There's hardly a difference to a native 240p signal.

[drunkninja24]

Sorry for asking, but is there any point to "scanline" a game which is natively running in 480i ? If you have a game which was originally running in 240p and it's output in 480i by the system in question, then upscaling and "scanlining" it works quite nice. There's hardly a difference to a native 240p signal.

Yeah, unless the game you are trying to run was originally in 240p to begin with, I wouldn't try to add scanlines to it.

[Rupert H]

A quick question to try and clear up my confusion. I have a Sony PVM with BNC and 21 pin RGB scart connections and I want to be able to add scanlines to 480i games to make them 240p. Does the Emotia allow me to do this with those connections or does it only work through VGA?

[Fudoh]

The Emotia need a VGA (480p) Input. And so does the UVC.

[SGGG2]

Well, no, there's no real "point" other than it might look cool. And 480i games are definitely less detailed in 240p, it may be from interpolation or whatever, but it's very obvious. Mostly it just looks like I'm running games on a cheap CRT, although, Silent Hill 2 looked great.

[Rupert H]

The Emotia need a VGA (480p) Input. And so does the UVC.

That's a pity. I'd love some hardware that could do that.

[Fudoh]

The BMD Intensity will overlay scanlines (even vertical ones) on 480i signals. Doesn't work with 240p though.