Layer Section II (RayStorm) on Saturn...

[jp]

What about these queries:

Was Strikers 1945 ever ported to the PS-2? I thought only part 2 was?
How is it better on the Saturn?

What's better with Gokujyo Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack on the Saturn?
I've played them both but don't see any significant difference.?!

Overall didn't the PSX have more Shmups than the Saturn?

Thanks in advance.

Strikers 1945 is available on the PS1 and the PS2 as well. It is better on the Saturn because it has TATE and has a better resolution (if I recall correctly, use the search function if you want to double check that).

Gokujyo Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack has less slowdown in the Saturn version, and something else, but I've long since forgotten.

The PS1 did have more shmups than the Saturn, though as with everything on the PS1, the quantity definitely does not translate to quality. IMO the Saturn has a higher number of quality shmups, and just all around better stuff (Radiant, Garegga, Batsugun, Hyper Duel, etc.).

[llabnip]

Strikers 1945 is available on the PS1 and the PS2 as well. It is better on the Saturn because it has TATE and has a better resolution (if I recall correctly, use the search function if you want to double check that).

I think he was talking about Strikers 1945, not II. In any event, yes, Strikers I and II both were on the PSX as well as the Saturn. Both have TATE (with the lone exception of the PSX US version of Strikers 1945 aka II which removed it... the Saturn never saw fit to release Strikers stateside). S1945II is _slightly_ better on the PSX with a bit better visuals and I prefer the sound effects to music ratio better but others disagree and find the Saturn sound better. There is slightly less slowdown on the PSX Strikers 1945 II (especially in TATE where it slows down more on the Saturn port).

I've never played Strikers 1945 I on the PSX, but it exists. Strikers I and II got a new release recently on the Psikyo Collections for the PS2.

The PS1 did have more shmups than the Saturn, though as with everything on the PS1, the quantity definitely does not translate to quality.

The Saturn defintely had a higher percentage of good games... not just shooters. But the PSX is still producing new games from big (i.e. non-homebrew) companies more than 10 years later - simply amazing that the PSX outlasted the Saturn, Dreamcast, N64 although production of the PsOne should be in serious decline now. The Saturn had just over 2000 games released worldwide (there is a text file from Madroms that contains a list of all the games!). According to one E3 report I read, the PSX has over 8000 games released worldwide and new ones still occasionally hit the shelves (backwards compatibility helps here). There are more than 13000 games total for the PS1 and PS2 combined. So, while the quantity doesn't help the PSX, the longevity does as it gives more designers a better chance to understand the hardware and produce quality games... so even with a lower percentage of good games, it still works out to a large number of worthy titles.

If Sega had managed the Saturn marketing correctly (and provided a backwards-compatible Dreamcast)... we may have been talking about the 4th and 5th generation Saturn titles that would have been simply beyond amazing. If only...

[jp]

^^^


He was asking about the original Strikers, which is what my response was about.



And I agree, 4th/5th gen Saturn games would have been insane. Panzer Dragoon Saga, Radiant Silvergun, House of the Dead, and even to some extent Final Fight Revenge really showed that the Saturn potential was just getting tapped.

[Shatterhand]

I just want to add a small correction here.

Konami MSX Antique Collection in NOT the same in both systems.

In 1st place, the Saturn one has 30 games in 1 disc, while the PSX has 3 different discs... but that's not the most important.

I have the Saturn one, and I've played one of the discs of PSX version (The one with Konami's Ping-Pong).

The PSX one is SLOW. Konami's Ping-Pong on level 5 feels like level 1.

Saturn version, while it does have some problems too - Gradius for example, has a completely unstable speed (Though I dunno if it happens on the PSX rev too), runs most of the games at full speed.

[ST Dragon]

I prefer the sound effects to music ratio of Strikers II (Saturn) better. On the PSX the explosions & bullets are too loud to hear the music.

I've never found a link about 1945 Strikers I on the PSX. Agetec ported Strikers II & renamed it 1945 Strikers since there was never a US release of part 1. But I've never heard of a JPN 1945 Stirkers I release?

If they hadn't removed the cool Saturn Intro it would have been perfect. I don't understand why they did that?

[jp]

Huh... maybe I was mistaken. I can't find any info on it.


Strange.

[Bar81]

I had to reregister for this (been too lazy since the board update)

Anyone who says the PSX is flat out the better machine is talking out of his clueless ass. There are things each machine does better. There are many games that the PSX couldn't even hope to attempt that the saturn is able to pull off. One high profile example is Dungeons & Dragons Collection, a title that was to receive a port to the PSX until Capcom realized that it was impossible given the PSX's design.

As has been said it comes down to the coders in most instances (although in some examples as above the hardware design simply will not allow a game to be ported)

Also as others have pointed out, your unnatural fixation on transparencies as some sort of evidence of the superiority of one console over another is laughable.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to the games, THAT is what determines which console is "superior" if that judgment can be made. IMO the Saturn is the "superior" console simply because it has many more games I not only want to play, but still to this day are examples of the finest games in terms of gameplay ever designed. In fact, I could care less about 3D although I'm a big FPS guy. Again, imo the PSX signaled the death of gameplay as the predominant factor in design of a game and the commercialization of the industry. On that factor alone, I would argue, the PSX is the most inferior console ever produced but I'm getting sidetracked.

Bottom line is that to state as some type of scientific fact that one console is better than the other shows that you either have no clue what you're talking about or you're a fanboy; simple as that.

[jp]

^^^^

Wow, awesome post.

[Palmer Eldritch]

No mention of Layer Section 2 for a while, eh?

How about renaming the thread title to something like Sega Saturn sucks or PSX is clearly the better machine?

Transparancies my ass. Burning Rangers has amazing transparancy effects on the later levels, but that in itself doesn´t make this game better than say its spiritual prequel, NiGHTS into Dreams.

--Michael

[ST Dragon]

I had to reregister for this (been too lazy since the board update)

Anyone who says the PSX is flat out the better machine is talking out of his clueless ass. There are things each machine does better. There are many games that the PSX couldn't even hope to attempt that the saturn is able to pull off. One high profile example is Dungeons & Dragons Collection, a title that was to receive a port to the PSX until Capcom realized that it was impossible given the PSX's design.

As has been said it comes down to the coders in most instances (although in some examples as above the hardware design simply will not allow a game to be ported)

Also as others have pointed out, your unnatural fixation on transparencies as some sort of evidence of the superiority of one console over another is laughable.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to the games, THAT is what determines which console is "superior" if that judgment can be made. IMO the Saturn is the "superior" console simply because it has many more games I not only want to play, but still to this day are examples of the finest games in terms of gameplay ever designed. In fact, I could care less about 3D although I'm a big FPS guy. Again, imo the PSX signaled the death of gameplay as the predominant factor in design of a game and the commercialization of the industry. On that factor alone, I would argue, the PSX is the most inferior console ever produced but I'm getting sidetracked.

Bottom line is that to state as some type of scientific fact that one console is better than the other shows that you either have no clue what you're talking about or you're a fanboy; simple as that.

Dungeons & Dragons Collection needed the extra 4MB RAM Cart expansion to operate.
Same goes for Metal Slug on the Saturn where as Metal Slug 1, X & Darkstalkers 1 & 3 looked & played great on the PSX even without the extra Ram.
Same goes for other stunning 2D titles like CastleVania SOTN, In The Hunt, etc..
More examples:
Mega Man 8 & Mega Man X3 don’t take up the whole screen & sprites are smaller on the Saturn.

All these facts are surprising as 2D is supposed to be the Saturn’s primary domain.

It’s not impossible to convert any game to any console. DKC, Super Mario World, Rodland, KOF 96, even Mortal Kombat! Were all converted to the 8-bit NES.
Duke 3D was ported to the Genesis!
Yes, it all comes down to the programmers skills, but whether the port will look as good as the original, depends solely on the hardware.

I can think of many other exclusive titles that one could consider technically impossible to port onto the Saturn, but your post…

Dungeons & Dragons Collection, a title that was to receive a port to the PSX until Capcom realized that it was impossible given the PSX's design.

…Is still totally unplaced.

I mentioned a lot of other factors other than transparencies, but your reading skills are laughable.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to the games, THAT is what determines which console is "superior" if that judgment can be made. IMO the Saturn is the "superior" console simply because it has many more games I not only want to play, but still to this day are examples of the finest games in terms of gameplay ever designed. In fact, I could care less about 3D although I'm a big FPS guy.

That’s totally subjective, but if you read the original post, I just stated my opinions about the PSX version of Layer Section II having better graphics than the Saturn.
I didn’t mention anything about which console had the largest or most varied library of games. I only mentioned the PSX Hardware, Graphics & sound capabilities of the PSX surpassing that of the Saturn in most cases.

Again, imo the PSX signaled the death of gameplay as the predominant factor in design of a game and the commercialization of the industry. On that factor alone, I would argue, the PSX is the most inferior console ever produced but I'm getting sidetracked.

Yes that’s true. Sony established the 3D craze that drives the industry today, but that’s only because their rivals, Sega, Nintendo, Panasonic, Atari, etc… Simply didn’t have anything special or innovating to offer, that hadn’t already been repeated countless times in the past. That’s one of the reasons why the GBA sucks & will be soon replaced by the PSP if the DS doesn’t show anything new.

Bottom line is that to state as some type of scientific fact that one console is better than the other shows that you either have no clue what you're talking about or you're a fanboy; simple as that.

Graphics capabilities, Hardware & sound are indisputable scientific facts that can very accurately be measured. So it’s you that doesn't knows jack-squat about what you’re talking about.

I Own & like both consoles for what they have to offer.

[Thunder Force]

Moved to OT for general PSX vs Saturn talk...

[Bar81]

Wow, it's apparently going to be useless to post further with this guy in the clueless/fanboy mindset. What I've said stands.

[jp]

Mega Man 8 has more vibrant colors, better sound, and additional bosses in the Saturn version.


In the Hunt is spectacular? I think not. Regardless of platform. It has nice animation at times, but thats about it.



" Metal Slug 1, X & Darkstalkers 1 & 3"

Anyone who feels that has never played the aforementioned games (sans X obviously) on the Saturn. Well, Metal Slug is iffy since it was so early, but anything by Capcom is miles better on the Saturn.

[Palmer Eldritch]

That’s one of the reasons why the GBA sucks & will be soon replaced by the PSP if the DS doesn’t show anything new.

So now the GBA sucks?
We´re talking about the console with probably THE biggest library of games ever here.

Oh wait. That´s probably because it doesn´t do transparancies, right?

[ST Dragon]

No actually it does do transparencies.


The GBA failed to deliver that many new games. Most are rewarmed up SNES titles, but without the cool SNES music since the SPC700 sound chip is missing.

It was mentioned previously that quantity doesn't mean quality, so that doesn't make the GBA the best console.

[llabnip]

Same goes for Metal Slug on the Saturn where as Metal Slug 1, X & Darkstalkers 1 & 3 looked & played great on the PSX even without the extra Ram.

Metal Slug 1 on the PSX was not a good port. Sloppy coding with plenty of slowdown and too much loading wait-times. Sound was poor as well. The Saturn port was not that great either... even with the extra RAM. The slowdown was still pretty bad but it was clearly the better port (and is the only one I kept). Now... whoever ported Metal Slug X figured it out and while we still have a bit of loading, everything else is really smooth and looks fantastic - the port of MS-X to the PSX trumps both prior Metal Slug ports (not counting the Neo Geo home conversions which are perfect).

It’s not impossible to convert any game to any console. DKC, Super Mario World, Rodland, KOF 96, even Mortal Kombat! Were all converted to the 8-bit NES.

But those conversions (I've played a few emulated) suck... badly. I'm not even sure where you're going with this. I'm a huge supporter of both the Saturn and PSX - both are amazing machines and since both will cost you less than the cost of a single used game, there is no reason that everyone here shouldn't own both. Play the games, not the consoles.

One high profile example is Dungeons & Dragons Collection, a title that was to receive a port to the PSX until Capcom realized that it was impossible given the PSX's design.

Capcom learned how to program for the PSX a little late... thier post 1998 (at the time of the Saturn's demise) titles were much, much better. Street Fighter Alpha 3 on the PSX got it all figured out... and if they can do one of the most complex CPS2 games on the PSX that well, the D&D collection would have been a pushover (certianly the first title, and most likely both titles... not to mention all the sub-par ports Capcom made prior to that in the fighting genre which could have been nearly arcade perfect if they applied the techniques learned while making SFA3).

but anything by Capcom is miles better on the Saturn.

Agreed... Capcom figured out the PSX hardware a little too late (though they are doing fine now for the PS2). They understood the Saturn hardware better... and the extra RAM on Saturn coupled with the better 6 button controller (very similiar to the Capcom arcade layout) granted far better ports to the Saturn over the PSX. There is no doubt that Capcom loved the Saturn... and the Saturn loved Capcom.

[Bar81]

Well, in regard to D&D Collection, Capcom themselves stated that the system's lack of RAM made it impossible to properly port the game. Whether they were lying I don't know, but I'll take their word for it. I know that I was following the game very closely at the time as I really wanted an English version of the game (as Capcom PSX games almost always made the trip across the Pacific), and the game got postponed over and over going on like a year or more past delivery date and then quietly canned with Capcom unofficially stating that they just couldn't get it together for a port.

Whether they figured it out later I couldn't say, I can only go on what transpired.

[ST Dragon]

I have nothing against the Saturn. When I was young I considered it as that exotic console from the East, due to its vast collection of JPN only games.
I own both PSX & Saturn & I modded it my self for the sole purpose of playing Radiant Silvergun & the rest.

It's just that the games I like most, are better on the PSX.

Peace.

[Palmer Eldritch]

It was mentioned previously that quantity doesn't mean quality, so that doesn't make the GBA the best console.

I never said it was the best console, merely the one with the biggest library of games.

Also, it does what it´s supposed to do and does it well.

[Bar81]

I have nothing against the Saturn. When I was young I considered it as that exotic console from the East, due to its vast collection of JPN only games.
I own both PSX & Saturn & I modded it my self for the sole purpose of playing Radiant Silvergun & the rest.

It's just that the games I like most, are better on the PSX.

Peace.

If you prefer the PSX because YOU "think" it's a "better" console, fine, just don't go around spouting gibberish like it is a fact that the PSX is a superior console to the Saturn. That just makes you sound, well, clueless.

[alpha5099]

Bam, PSX Strikers 1945 I:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/data/924864.html

---

RE: 5th Generation Saturn Games

I often what would be possible if larger RAM carts had been created. Obviously RAM alone wouldn't keep the Saturn going indefinitely, but if Sega had kept support for the Saturn going after the Dreamcast had been announced, the Saturn probably could've had ports of things like Marvel Vs. Capcom. And Capcom stated in an interview near the end of the Saturn's life that, if Sega would be supportive, they would try to port some CPS III games to the Saturn. Whether this never came to fruition because it was technically infeasible or that the support for the Saturn just fell out from beneath it, I do not know.

[ST Dragon]

I have nothing against the Saturn. When I was young I considered it as that exotic console from the East, due to its vast collection of JPN only games.
I own both PSX & Saturn & I modded it my self for the sole purpose of playing Radiant Silvergun & the rest.

It's just that the games I like most, are better on the PSX.

Peace.

If you prefer the PSX because YOU "think" it's a "better" console, fine, just don't go around spouting gibberish like it is a fact that the PSX is a superior console to the Saturn. That just makes you sound, well, clueless.

I didn't sound cluelss at all. I supported my opinions with valid arguements. Others have a problem if they rash through the thread without reading them properly.

[Bar81]

You are apparently having a difficult time differentiating opinion and fact. On that basis alone, you sound clueless.

Fact: You prefer the PSX to the Saturn

Opinion: The PSX is "superior" to the saturn.

What you've stated above in your posts is drivel; it's illogical, unsubstantiated, and just plain wrong. You need to stop passing off your "opinion" as scientific fact. Stop making statements that are unsupportable and more importantly, inaccurate.

[raiden]

Dead or Alive on Saturn has higher resolution, twice the framerate, better animations and more polygons than the PSX version. The PSX version has additional characters and transparency effects.

"Hardware power" is not something that can be measured exactly, what you can measure are the components, but the overall performance will vary depending on the game´s demands, the programming and the hardware architecture.

[roushimsx]

Wasn't the best console port of Quake 1 & Duke 3D supposed to be the N64 ports?

Ehh, it depends.

Quake on N64 was probably the most direct port, though the Saturn version added neato colored lighting and swapped out the hidden levels with new levels. Control really sucked on the Saturn version and the Saturn version's framerate wasn't too hot (when my PC is up and running again I'll show off the first episode)...we're talking 20fps or so (Goldeneye and Perfect Dark fans will find it to play silky smooth ). The N64 version ran a bit better but lacked the cool lighting effects. I think I had more fun playing the N64 version.

Duke Nukem 3D on Playstation is probably the most exact port...but the game had some bad bad bad slowdown issues. The Saturn version didn't have the slowdown problems but they changed some levels around and removed various bits and pieces to make the gameplay a bit faster/smoother/accomodate for the controls/etc. The N64 version had a ton of levels changed around (level 2 is probably the most notable since they merged that level with the Duke Burger level from Plutonium Pak) and was a good bit of fun. Which version is better is up to your personal taste (accuracy vs speed vs new content)

too long; didn't read:
It's all a matter of personal preference.

Quake 2 on Playstation was really, really impressive. I don't even like Quake 2, but that was one seriously impressive port.

[ST Dragon]

I remember watching Quake 2 in a shop back in 1999. It looked great for a console port but somehow I wasn't shocked that they managed to port it onto the PSX.

I should have bought Quake 1 & Duke 3D for my Saturn back then when Saturn games were sold off real cheap. Oh well...

By the way, I just played SEGA Rally. It's a very good conversion. I wonder how SEGA managed to mess up the Daytona port?

[roushimsx]

By the way, I just played SEGA Rally. It's a very good conversion. I wonder how SEGA managed to mess up the Daytona port?

Daytona had a lot more straight-aways and aeras that needed a long long long view than Sega Rally, IIRC. Daytona CCE was quite a bit better than Daytona USA, so the main problem was that they were just rushing to get the product out the door (like Virtua Fighter vs Virtua Fighter Remix)

[LoneSage]

One high profile example is Dungeons & Dragons Collection, a title that was to receive a port to the PSX until Capcom realized that it was impossible given the PSX's design.

The same could be said for the Saturn.

Cos without the extra 4,096 kilobytes of RAM, the Saturn could not have done it either.

[Bar81]

One high profile example is Dungeons & Dragons Collection, a title that was to receive a port to the PSX until Capcom realized that it was impossible given the PSX's design.

The same could be said for the Saturn.

Cos without the extra 4,096 kilobytes of RAM, the Saturn could not have done it either.

That statement makes no sense. Part of the actual Saturn hardware design was the expansion slot with the ability to add RAM so the Saturn, as history has shown, could do it.

[Ganelon]

Wow... then I guess Itagaki, the guy who MADE THE GAME, completely doesn't know what he's talking about. I hate it when that happens.

It's not wise to follow that logic, man. Do you also consider Lament of Innocence a better game than Symphony of the Night just because Iga, director of both games (asst. in SOTN) tells you 3D is better?

And that´s the thing in a nutshell. Even though you claim that neither DoA nor VF2 are arcadeperfect and that Daytona looks somewhat sloppy, they still hold their own pretty well against the Tekkens and the Ridge Racers that people usually like to throw in Saturn owners faces.

Are you talking gameplay-wise or graphics-wise? R4 and GT look far better than any racing game on the SS (and there's really no way they can be replicated either since they push poly counts to the max on the PS). I also personally prefer playing RR over Daytona but that's besides the point.

Equivalent on both:
...
29. Super Dimensional Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love?

Nope, I'm afraid they're not equivalent on both. Macross DYRL is better on the PS. As opposed to the heavily bordered box used to display movies in the SS version, the PS version features full-screen cinemas that also happen to look crisper.

Darkstalkers 1 & 3 looked & played great on the PSX even without the extra Ram.

Perhaps DS3 looks and plays great on the PS but it's still missing frames, esp. from larger characters like Anakaris.

Fact: You prefer the PSX to the Saturn

OK, then I'll state some facts:

Fact: The PS can handle more polygons of any type onscreen than the SS can.

Fact: The SS does not have hardware support for curved polygon transparencies.

Fact: The SS has more memory than the PS does.

Are these factual claims satisfactory for you?

In many graphical respects, the PS is the better machine. Programmers, however, certainly made the difference for better or worse in all those SS ports that didn't originally push the PS's polygon capabilities to its limit.

Game-wise, it's entirely in the eye of the beholder. I happen to think the SS is the far better machine with its excellent 2D exclusives.

For the record, I'm surprised with the vehemence shown in this topic. Chill out a bit, man.